From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #19 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 15 Jan 2000 Vol 07 : Num 019 In this issue: eskrima: FMA in Vancouver eskrima: Power vs. deflections... eskrima: babysteps. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #17 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 eskrima: ed v7 #18 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 eskrima: Re:C-lot eskrima: t-shirt eskrima: Guro Dave Gould [none] eskrima: "Victor Cushing" Re: eskrima: Power vs. deflections eskrima: Re: ED Shirts eskrima: FMA in Suffern, NY? eskrima: Filipino Kuntao eskrima: ED T- Shirts eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Loki Jorgenson Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: FMA in Vancouver ::From: "Victor Cushing" :: ::I would to advise my 19 year old (just moved to Vancouver this month) who is ::interested in learning FMA or Indonesian Arts where he might look for ::instruction. :: Vic - tried to answer via the listed e-mail and it didn't work. Please contact me directly at loki@cecm.sfu.ca. - -- 'gards, /\ Pekiti-Tirsia kali / \ silat Jati Wisesa Loki Jorgenson < MANOyBASTON Martial Arts > / __ \ Dog Brothers MA loki@pekiti-tirsia.org (604) 254-0240 / _L \ Majapahit Empire www.pekiti-tirsia.org/ManoBaston/ /________\ (Inosanto-IMAIA) ------------------------------ From: "Roan Kalani Grimm" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:22:28 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Power vs. deflections... Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From: Chad >Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:41:28 -0800 (PST) >Subject: eskrima: Power vs. deflections >Ok, Ray, just so we make sure the post doesn't slow down too much... >What do the digest members think holds more importance to themselves? >The ability to hit hard and fast with power or the ability to >deflect/block? I feel they are both important in their own ways, I >think it was Dan Inosanto that said "How can one compare the beauty of >the oceans with the majesty of the mountains". Which steps in >progression do you think are more important on working to develop the >ability of fighting? >BTW, Ray, ever think about making Eskrima-Digest shirts for sale? >===== >"Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" >Chad >Hawaii Here's my $.02-- I think that the development of the ability to hit hard and fast is more important, or at least is more important to learn first. Many reasons lead me to believe this, one especially being that even the Dog Bros. feel it's impotant to learn to hit hard first. As Top Dog says in the video, "If you learn to have power, you will always be a figther to be reckoned with." or something like that. Chad, as you know, I don't have the greatest ability when it comes to deflections/blocks (but after those hand shots and arm shots coutesy of you, Leroy, James, Stuart and the unnamed fighter, you better believe I'm working on getting better :-), but I can hit hard (at least I hope I can). I believe that no matter how good your deflections/blocks are, you will get hit when enough shots come in. And if you don't have power to earn your opponents respect, there's really nothing to keep him/her from pressing their attack and eventually getting in a telling shot. But, if you have the power to make your opponent wonder if they really want to take a shot from you, there's the incentive to get them off your butt. For example, say I didn't have any power, but I could deflect/block like a demon. When you and I fight, through all of your feints, combos, etc. at least a few of your shots will get through, because whoever is acting, i.e. on the offense, (not reacting, as I would be) is ahead on the pressure curve. No matter how fast I am, I'm always a step behind, because you are always initiating the action. Not a good place to be. However, if I'm only mediocre at deflections/blocks, but have young-Tyson like power, I can at least give you pause before you rush in. There would always be that M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction) to make you think about how badly you want to take the shot. You might get me, but I also might "rock your world", and if I have sufficient power, maybe I could stun you long enough to take the offense. Or hell, I might just take the offense from the get go to put you on the defensive, ala "The best defense is a strong offense." Now Chad, you know me, so you know I don't think power is the end-all. But just so I'm not misinterpreted by the rest of the list members, I am NOT saying that the ablity to deflect/block is not important. For example, in my last Sunday Battle with Chad and the gang, Leroy did two textbook perfect deflection/blocks against two of my power shots, and as a result I wasn't able to press in. But the deflections were only PART of it; I didn't rush in because Leroy had my respect through his ability to let loose with his own power shots. If he didn't have the power, I would've just kept coming. Power and defensive ability are both two very important skills to have as a fighter, but if I was forced to choose through pain-of-death, I would choose power over defense. BTW, my ring finger on my alive hand is still screwed up because of that shot Leroy gave me to my alive hand, and I still have a lump on my stick hand from Leroy's other hand shot. Heheheheh. Oh yeah, does anyone have any reccomendations on how I can get rid of the lumps? Oh well, enough out of me. Peace, respect and an open mind. Aloha, Roan Kalani Grimm "We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best is he who is trained in the severest school." -- Thucydides ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:09:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: babysteps. Lahong Guro Jason Inay writes: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:29:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: ed v7 #18 > Question offered for a thread: In the NHB fights of today, are we seeing any silat? If yes, give examples and explain why it is not recognized as such. If not, why not? Woof, Crafty > there was one silat player in the ufc who didnt far well - the reason: silat's meant for death - the majority of tools, be it edged (karumbit, cock spur, finger ring, ect.) or impact (coin/washers tossed, sand in the face, hot pepper, rock, ect.) or groin shots, eye jabs, throat jabs, pinches ect. arent allowed - even NHB has holds narred from them - you never see someone deliver a knee to the coxic when they are in the guard, even though this is probally the best non weapon escape from the guard to Julie Broad - the genital to anus cut is a kill zone because there is a major artery in the "taint" area (I hope everyone knows what I mean by taint) which is a inch or two inside you - and the only way to stop the bleeding to cut yourself even deeper, reach up and pinch the artery - not an inviting thought - I was taught this strike as a thrust as opposed to slash - however it make more sense to cover the entire region so you differently hit the target - as far as the legal aspects goes - anytime you assault anyone with or without a weapon your up for a legal battle - since this is a mortal (in most cases) blow - you would have to justify your use of force - meaning it was their life or yours - however I've heard it argued that since we are martial arts we should be able to neutralize a attack without having to kill. so..... as far as clothing goes - get yourself a good knife - a cold steel will slice through a 2 inch thick rope with one swing - also a tonto point has superior penetrating qualities - I've seen demo's where a tonto point will go through a car door. Steve reiter ------------------------------ From: Kurokuwa@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:58:41 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 In a message dated 01/14/2000 3:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Finally, being totally unfamiliar with Mr. deBethencourt, I'm curious as to his background in knife training, martial arts, etc.. What styles or systems were used to develop his course? >> Dear Ms. Broad, As I happen to know that Michael in not online, or have an e-mail address, I will take this opportunity to answer the last question on his behalf. Michael is an active LEO in Mass., and certified police trainer for at least the last 15 years. He has been teaching the course Ms. Gardner took for eight years. Lastly, he is the knife/counterknife instructor for both Mas Ayoob's LFI and for the Sig Sauer Arms Academy. Your first three questions are also very valid, but Michael addresses them in extreme detail (better than I could hope to) within the first segment of his course. Cordially, James loriega New York Ninpokai ------------------------------ From: Facelocker@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:14:07 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 Hi, This is the first time I've posted on this digest, but I've been reading it=20 for some time now. I have a great interest in the arts of the Majapahit=20 empire, although I do admit I'm am still quite a beginner. Here on some of=20 my thoughts on what Marc has asked. Crafty Dog writes: <<<<>>>> Is this question a good question to ask? If it is not a sound question to=20 ask in the first place, then there really is no need for an answer. I'm assuming everyone here has a good grasp on the root of virtually all the= =20 fighting arts of Philippines, Indonesia, and Indochina. The common=20 denominator of all these arts is combat, in all its nastiness and ugliness.=20= =20 In combat, deception is the key. Two and a half thousand years ago Sun Tzu,= =20 a Chinese general, wrote in his The Art of War that "All warfare is based on= =20 deception... Feign disorder and crush him... Attack him where he is=20 unprepared, appear where you are not expected." And since warfare was the=20 mother of virtually all the arts of this area, they were brought up embracin= g=20 these principles. Donn Draeger also points out his book Weapons and Fightin= g=20 Arts of the Indonesia that "All systems of pentjak-silat are based on the us= e=20 of weapons. They are positively not considered empty-hand combative measure= s=20 in the purest sense of that expression." If deception and weapons are the name of the game in silat, should we really= =20 ask why it doesn't work a sport like NHB where there are no great deceptions= =20 and certainly no weapons? When we try and look for silat in NHB, it's like=20 looking for a nice basketball game at a football game. Combat and sport are= =20 two different and totally distinct animals. Is it any wonder that the=20 methods which are so successful in one don't necessarily work in the other?=20= =20 Are you going to try to set up a nice pick and roll playing a football game?= =20 Crafty points out in his Rambling Ruminations: Trapping that "It is also=20 important to remember that MANY situations that one might be in are quite=20 different from a NHB octagon.... Many bouncers and others with lots of=20 experience swear by trapping. So in my opinion we should not get carried awa= y=20 with the =91Where-is-the-trapping?' stuff." So too I do not think we should= =20 get carried away with "Where-is-the-silat?" stuff.=20 Basically I don't think it's a good question to ask. Thoughts? Sincerely, David Pilkinton ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:55:54 EST Subject: eskrima: Re:C-lot Crafty dogs writes: > I'll readily confess to only moderate levels of knowledge in silat I profess no more than the same... > but when I say "most (silat takedowns) require hitting" this covers from 51-99% > and does leave room for up to 49% not requiring hitting. I don't follow. I'd say large percentage of the takedowns could be done without hits but the more damage done the better. One does need to enter. Same goes from grappling you should either rock their clock (or wear them down) rather than attempt a submission right away if one seeks to have probability in their favor. I know position before submission but how does one get that? Same - same, rock their clock, wear them down, etc. > No classification limit was intended. Not sure what you mean with the point > about crashing though. Overall, I suspect there's no real disagreement > though. Nope. > Question offered for a thread: In the NHB fights of today, are we seeing > any Silat? If yes, give examples and explain why it is not recognized as > such. If not, why not? Ha, hum, lol...the sly dog is rubbing his paws together :) Well I am definitely a fan of NHB and MMA and though I haven't see all the UFC's, ECC's, and other alphabet soup of matches ... I offer that I have not see it. One a player from Washington did well in a match in Hawaii. I forget the details and his name. But that aside I'd say rarely if at all. Why? Don't know about it _or_ because it seems their teacups is filled up with BJJ, boxing and/or Thai boxing. Nothing wrong with those arts. However there are silats and guru's that offer just as functional skills. I feel Silat does offer things that would fit well in to a NHB'ers toolbox and increase their odds. There are rules too in NHB the most telling being you only gotta be concerned with a single opponent and no weapons. Although it may not be common in, for lack of better words, classically oriented or other Silats in general but we do cover in Gulat the sattle (mount), scissors (guard), passing, legs locks, grapevines, in western terms the pop up etc. ..on and on. However the premise being what it is survival and possible mutliples (avoid tieing up from the get go) , we eye gouge, fishook, bite if need be, you name it whatever it takes to survive. I think highly of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, western wrestling, and maybe shoot and catch too. Like Guru says " who more, how better" ...the more the better. I think that Silat does have something to offer for NHB, self defense, and otherwise. I guess it comes down to liking to hit and slam other guy to the ground and drop knees to their face rather than roll around with another sweaty male on top of me!! :) Just kidding..kind of....one should know how to handle themselves on the ground, not that I profess any extensive merit there either. What was Ray saying about your mama?!? Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: t-shirt Seriously Ray, I think alot of people would buy it. 1100 members strong. Front of shirt: From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Reply-to: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Back of shirt: Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. Any of you out there would buy it? ===== "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: John Frankl Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:21:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Guro Dave Gould Is Guro Dave Gould either on this list, or does anyone out there have an email address for him? Thanks, John Frankl ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:02:58 +0800 Subject: [none] >Ok, Ray, just so we make sure the post doesn't slow down too much... >What do the digest members think holds more importance to themselves? >The ability to hit hard and fast with power or the ability to >deflect/block? Whatever gets you to where you're going quickest, based on your individuality. A dead opponent is DEAD. LSPIII ------------------------------ From: "Ted Truscott" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:39:04 -0800 Subject: eskrima: "Victor Cushing" I'll reply here because I'm unsure how to contact him but others here will know - contact Loki Jorgenson's club in Vancouver area; I believe he's down south right now but everyone I know here on the island say he's the real deal. Ted Truscott The Fighting Old Man - ---------- >From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > learning FMA or Indonesian Arts where he might look for > instruction. ------------------------------ From: "Ted Truscott" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:44:57 -0800 Subject: Re: eskrima: Power vs. deflections I vote power and I want a t-shirt!! Ted Truscott The Fighting Old Man - ---------- >From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 >Date: Fri, Jan 14, 2000, 12:38 PM > > eskrima: Power vs. deflections ------------------------------ From: "Sovann D. Pen" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:04:18 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: ED Shirts >What would it have on it? An email header? :) >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com "Have you had your daily dose of FMA?" "Beware: Occasional Rock sightings."(j/k) Sovann NW Karate for Christ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ From: "EAG" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:15:12 -0500 Subject: eskrima: FMA in Suffern, NY? Hello all, Can anyone point me in the right direction for FMA in the Suffern, NY area ? Regards ------------------------------ From: "Raymond A. Dettinger" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 1980 07:27:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Filipino Kuntao To all, I noticed a new video tape out called Filipino Kuntao by Rich Hernandez. Has anybody worked with this style or viewed the tape? How effective is it versus other FMA styles? Butch ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:38:57 -0330 Subject: eskrima: ED T- Shirts >> BTW, Ray, ever think about making Eskrima-Digest shirts for sale? >What would it have on it? An email header? :) ....a dog sitting at a computer with a pair of sticks next to it.... :D (from the one-liner "on the net, nobody knows you're a dog" ) although i'd prefer a cat....;) :)jocelyne Hardcore Girl Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:46:46 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #18 BTW, Ray, ever think about making Eskrima-Digest shirts for sale? > > ===== > "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" > > Chad > Hawaii > __________________________________________________ > > > > > BTW, Ray, ever think about making Eskrima-Digest shirts for sale? > > > > What would it have on it? An email header? :) > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > ------------------------------ > How about: "Email me not without reason; respond not without forethought." Gary H. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:52:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #19 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Standard disclaimers apply.