From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #24 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 17 Jan 2000 Vol 07 : Num 024 In this issue: eskrima: block first eskrima: Fw: Silat part 3 eskrima: Re: Tuhon Bill's Article eskrima: TRACMA eskrima: T-shirt slogan eskrima: Silat in NHB eskrima: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #22 eskrima: Filipino Kuntao? eskrima: Tee-Shirt Logo Contest [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:19:02 -0800 Subject: eskrima: block first A baseball bat is a powerful tool. I could not survive a baseball bat hit even with my best block, but I can move... Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. - ----- Original Message ----- > Conversely, I would maintain that teaching a student how to block effectively > against just such a blow needs to be taught first - especially since that is > exactly what he/she would encounter coming from an untrained opponent with a > baseball bat ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:57:18 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Fw: Silat part 3 A Howl etc: Please allow me to take another stab at this. My proffered question about silat was in the context of throws and takedowns, the majority of which I was under the impression require hitting. I thought that "the majority of which" was a big enough loophole to escape through when given particular examples of non-hitting takedowns, but if there are silat systems where hitting is not a part of most throws, then whoops and sorry. So, restating the idea, it is that both hitting and non-hitting based throws should also be part of a good well rounded repertoire. Rather innocuous really. However I confess befuddlement however at the notion that the question about the presence or not (that's "vel non" for all you lawyers out there) of silat players and or techniques in NHB events was inappropriate. Perhaps it was assumed to be a semi-veiled way of saying "If it ain't in the NHB it is no good". If so, this assumption is quite wrong. If you look at Dog Brothers Martial Arts t-shirts you will see "Kali-silat and others". I asked the question as someone who is looking for more concise answers to it than he currently has. And I ask it as someone trying to ask honest questions and find answers. Much of my path with the Dog Brothers, and with Dog Brothers Martial Arts is about this. IMHO where one can get in trouble is to fail to do so. I believe in what I have been taught precisely because I have questioned and tested. Yes I understand that many silat techniques require weapons or work better with weapons-- I think we all know this-- but perhaps the argument should be used with care lest one wind up in the position of saying that the silat doesn't work without weapons. So getting to the question and the thoughts offered thereto: The point about people's minds being full cup with BJJ and Muay Thai I think is right on the mark. For a while, everyone was BJJ, then they saw MT work, so now they also train MT for striking skills. People's nature, and it is not entirely illogical, is to want to see something manifested before they believe in it to the point of training in it. The catch-22 may be that silat is not being manifested because so few are training in it for NHB purposes. As noted there have been some appearances by silat players, but as of yet there are no champions flying the silat flag. (Tedious disclaimer: The point is not that this would or wouldn't prove the merits of silat, but that people are waiting to see it applied successfully before placing their efforts into it) I also strongly agree that silat and Kali have A LOT to add to the NHB toolbox. Eric Paulson would be a good example of someone who weaves silat into his NHB fighting-- its just done so seamlessly that it can be easily missed. A third point to consider is whether it would be recognized even if it were done. By way of example I thought Vitor Belfort did a straight blast in UFC Brazil and no one saw it even though it was in plain sight. No, he didn't think he was doing a straight blast, probably never heard of one, but he was squared up punching with both arms down centerline and driving his opponent. I think it qualifies. You would think all the JKD people, concepts and original alike would be euphoric , , , In a similar vein, a lot of the non-hitting silat take downs involve dropping low and going against the legs. And guess what many top BJJ players are doing now? I am NOT saying at all that BJJ people are doing silat, merely that as BJJ continues to evolve it finds itself going to territory that is already well explored by silat. Recently in friendly rolls I have been dumped on my butt frequently (and foot/ankle/knee locked) by a player skilled in both arts and often can't tell which one a particular technique is from. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:24:15 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: Tuhon Bill's Article Hi kids! Tuhon Bill, let me know when you get it in Inside Kung Fu or any other mag and i'll let my crowd know - a great way to explain about different range/styles. i like it! i'm definitely wind...but i'm working on my other elements! :) hardcore girl PS Ray - do the shirts! ...and have a contest! ...and do a rogues gallery! and....:D one of my favorite ways to avoid work....Eskrima List! Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: "Kyud" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:13:27 -0800 Subject: eskrima: TRACMA " I just read a Philippine Newspaper on line and there was an article about a Filipino who claims his father Trovador Ramos beat Bruce Lee in two live matches. " In 1970 when I began to Learn the Martial Arts I started with TRACMA because that is where I was stationed in the Philippines at the time, San Miguel - Zambales. I meet Trovador Ramos several times and have pictures of the so called event. I talked to Dan Insanto years ago and he never heard about it. And you can tell they are not of Bruce Lee. In fact A lot of articles (I have them) came out about that incident (In PI) newspapers of course and after Mr. Lee's death. TRACMA is in fact Trovador Ramos Asian Consolidated Martial Arts. A combination of Chinese, Japanese, Korean styles and other influences in between. A little note though is that when Ramos was young and a bouncer in a bar. He went to Pundador Manuel Aguillon (of Arnis Balite) to begin his Martial arts, and then after learning some branched out to the other styles. I was promoted to 3rd Black Belt in TRACMA back in 74. But as many know I stayed with Kuntaw and have been representing Arnis Balite since the family asked me to take over since their father's passing away. Any more questions drop me an email. Steven Dowd Sa Pinuno Arnis Balite http://www.wizard.com/~kyud/ ------------------------------ From: "Scott Kinney" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 12:15:57 +0000 Subject: eskrima: T-shirt slogan Just a thought but how does: Eskrima Digest: We own computers, but we play with sticks! sound? Regards, Scott =A0=A0 - -------------------------------------------------- Scott Kinney Project Manager sakinney@ix.netcom.com - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: tcsno Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:04:45 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Silat in NHB Crafty brings up the question,....Does silat show up in NHB, and if not, why not?? I have watched lots and lots of the NHB fights and tend to see applications of many of the techniques that have been presented by Guru Dan, Pendekar Paul, and Pak Herman. One of my games with my instructor Harold Koning, is to try BJJ or Shooto stuff on him and see if he can counter it. I am around 170 at 6 feet, and he is around 5-9, and 150. He never fails to read the energy and counter. He also combines the positional body changes with things like toe locks and trying to rip my fingers off to show how vulnerable I am when I think about just getting a hold and cranking it. Here are some examples of silat technology in NHB---> 1. The bukti people use a sepak tarik, or pulling kick/heel behind the opponents leg from a clinch. (Gee, I'll bet Mas Djut used clinching before Frank Shamrock) My instructor calls this a variation of a sapu. He says a foot trap/stomp, sapu, shin kick to the thigh, and inward sweeping knee, crescent kick, and a collapsing knee lock are all the same mechanic. This is the same takedown the BJJ guys use and used by Crafty Dog on Fox files. Also used by Rorion Gracie vs Ralph/Bob Alegria on Gracie Jiujitsu in Action One. 2.Clinching, is stressed in silat and NHB. I mean working from Greco Roman or tye up position. 3. The knee on chest( in Koning's style, knee to upper thigh) was old in Djakarta before it was new in Brazil. 4.Countering the double leg by dropping the legs back and maintaining base is part of alot of basic djuru's. 5. The mount or saddle position is use in some Indo arts. My teacher stresses knee's don't touch when standing/squatting, and butt doesnt touch while "butt scooting". 6. Indo-Malay-Filipino and Kuntao groups all choke, lock, break, and do leg locks. The just appoach it as cutting the throat,(knife or ridgehand), break without allowing tapouts, and snap the legs and keep on moving. 7. A student at a seminar asked Uncle Bill and Harold Koning about "squaring off in silat". They both laughed and said,..."If he is a good fighter, he won't square off,....he and his friends will distract you and stab you to death,....period." It is a different mentality than a boxing ring, or mat. Noted Thai boxer Rob Kaman is a silat man. You can see it when he does films like that Van Damme/Natasha Henstridge movie, Maximum Risk. 8. Elbows, knees, headbutts, leg kicks, and takedowns are the core of NHB. Most of the old silat guys and kuntaoers can do all this stuff in their senior years. Nothing new here either. I hope I covered the bare minimum. Maybe SiKal or Todd Ellner can help here. Tom Furman tcsno@mciworld.com ------------------------------ From: Sunny Graff <105605.2047@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:21:15 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #22 Original message >Geez a boxing coach would laugh his ass off and tell you to play with the girls. < What exactly are you getting at? I'm not clear, since I am sure this was not meant to be a derogatory remark about women..... Sunny ------------------------------ From: "Mark Harrell" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:35:51 GMT Subject: eskrima: Filipino Kuntao? From: "Raymond A. Dettinger" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 1980 07:27:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Filipino Kuntao To all, I noticed a new video tape out called Filipino Kuntao by Rich Hernandez. Has anybody worked with this style or viewed the tape? How effective is it versus other FMA styles? Butch _____________________________________________________________________ >>I have seen this two tape series and found them to be entertaining. >>I see lots of Chinese PaKua, Hsing I, and Pentjak Silat type >>entries, limb destructions, takedowns, and counters, etc. >>He places a heavy emphasis on gouging the eyes and breaking the >>neck. >>His breakdown of entry strategy is identical to many Pentjak >>Silat and Kuntao Silat systems I have studied. Great stuff! >>Regardless of what styles are mixed together I found his movement >>to be effective and his presentation of the material to be both >> >>informative and entertaining. >>Guro Harrell ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:36:46 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Tee-Shirt Logo Contest How about: The Eskrima Digest Where you actually get to hit the people that disagree with you online;) Patrick N. Christian Inayan School of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:53:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #24 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Standard disclaimers apply.