From:      eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To:        eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject:   Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #25
Reply-To:  eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Precedence: 


Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest         Tues, 18 Jan 2000         Vol 07 : Num 025

In this issue:

     eskrima: Re: Novice rings Senior
     eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #23
     eskrima: Re: block vs. strike
     eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #24
     eskrima: Re: Dallas
     eskrima: Bruce Lee defeated by Ramos???
     eskrima: Re: Red Belt Master Trovador Ramos
     eskrima: to hit or block..
     eskrima: Re: Silat, etc.
     eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #19  <Power vs Deflection>
     [none]
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: abass@iname.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:17:47 -0500
Subject: eskrima: Re: Novice rings Senior

=============Original Post============
Then comes some white belt with no control, no finese and no skill 
who rings our chimes ... "The world's greatest swordsman has nothing 
to fear from the world's second greatest swordsman. He knows 
everything the other swordsman will do. It is the rank amatuer, who 
will do something totally unpredictable, that will get him." 
============Original Post==============

I taught 8th graders chess during lunches a while back when I subbed 
for a year at a local middle school. The same thing would happen 
there both to me and the other students. It was not uncommon for a 
novice player to seriously confuse the game of a more experienced 
one. Exactly because the novice wasn't "playing by the rules" that 
the experienced player expected. In chess, experience typically won 
out as the novice rarely knew how to finish anything, but in MA, the 
experienced player may already be dead.

I remember in the first couple of months of my (F)MA training feeling
scared that I was losing something "personal". I can't think of a 
better word, sorry. I wanted to learn the strikes, the blocks, the 
locks, everything, but I felt that at the same time that a door was 
closing inside me. I think that that door opened on spontaniety, and 
I saw myself losing access to it even as I gained technical 
knowledge.

Rationally, I "know" that I have to reach a point (far away from my 9
months of study) at which the techniques are no longer thought of as
techniques but rather are interpretted, modified, and applied as a
situation requires. I "know" that that is my goal. I just hope that 
by the time I reach it, there's still enough left of the original 
novice me to be spontaneous, unpredictable, and maybe even a little 
crazy.

Thanks for the ears.

ashley bass

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   All the busy little creatures
   Chasing out their destinies
   Living in their pools
   They soon forget about the sea...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~N.P.~~~

------------------------------

From: "Daniel G. Rutano" <dgrutano@home.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:30:31 -0700
Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #23

This is the first time I heard this story.
During the early seventies when Trovador Ramos came back to the Philippines
from Hong Kong, the story that he was circulating was that Bruce Lee wanted
him to appear in one of his movies as the bad guy. He apparently, told Bruce
that he would aggree to appear as the bad guy, if he (Bruce) will beat him
in a real fight. To which, according to Trovador Ramos, Bruce Lee declined.
At that time in the martial art community in Phil., nobody really pays
attention to him. I guess it's one those advertising gimmicks to attract
students. This is also the same time when one of those newly established
styles in the 70's, who's founder posted a picture of himself and Bruce Lee
on their ads, claiming that they trained together.

Dan Rutano
Canadian Kali Association


> Richard Marcaida wrote:

>I just read a Philippine Newspaper on line and there was an article about a
> Filipino
>who claims his father Trovador Ramos beat Bruce Lee in two live matches.
>Apparently, the producers of that match burned the film to protect BL . The
>article went on to say that there is a tape out there were saved negatives
of
>these
>matches. I doubt if this story is true unless some of you guys seen the
saved negatives.
>I heard about a Filipino claiming to have been the only person to have
beaten BL when I still lived in the Philippines but paid no attention to it
, as a matter of >fact we used to laugh about
>it.  Wonder if he was the one. Trovador Ramos ( the one who claims to have
beaten >BL ) went on to develop his own art of self defense w/c is now
called Tracma Trovador Ramos Asian
>Consolidated Martial Arts.(anyone hear about this art?) A combination of
Chinese, >Japanese, Korean styles and other influences in between. Anyway,
his son is now an >actor and he was the one
>who told this story.
>       Any of the JKD guys out there hear about this?  Just wondering if
this story is true. To those who are in the Philippines in this list , hear
anything?






------------------------------

From: Kilap@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:54:35 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: block vs. strike

Doc Fung writes:

<< A baseball bat is a powerful tool.  I could not survive a baseball bat hit
 even with my best block,  but I can move...
  >>
   Stand still and block?  I prefer to pass on that and also move/block at 
the same time most all the time if possible.

Regards,
Travis

------------------------------

From: "Cory Eicher" <nickblack@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:04:30 CST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #24

tscno said:

"2.Clinching, is stressed in silat and NHB. I mean working from Greco Roman 
or tye up position.

(point omitted)

4.Countering the double leg by dropping the legs back and maintaining base 
is part of alot of basic djuru's.

5. The mount or saddle position is use in some Indo arts. My teacher
stresses knee's don't touch when standing/squatting, and butt doesnt touch 
while "butt scooting"."

These things were all things that I learned in my High School and freestyle 
wrestling career.  Where these principles (not exactly techniques IMHO) 
originated is much less important than the fact they work.  A few episodes 
back someone remarked, "there are only so many ways to tie/lock/choke/etc."

From what I have seen, that is completely correct, and any training that 
spends time and energy practicing grappling will reach at least some of 
those points eventually.

What is the point of all this martial arts anyway?

(I'm making the next statement for dramatic effect, not because I limit my 
thinking that severely)

The martial arts are, at essence, about fighting better than the other guy 
or guys.  The martial arts are not about where what originated and who 
deserves what accolades.

Learn everything you can, use everything that works.


=========================================

	Never underestimate the power of
	stupid people in large groups.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


------------------------------

From: Wschpunyo@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:07:30 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Dallas

Greetings.

I just wanted to publicly thank Tuhon Bill McGrath, Andy Breton, and Cory 
Eicher for kindly supplying me with leads for training partners in Dallas. I 
appreciate your time and generosity. See ya in Dallas.


Ray: Sign me up for a couple of shirts as well.

I'm going to change my home ISP tonight  so I will be re-subscribed to the 
digest as wshpunyo@spiritone.com

Thanks again.
William Schultz
PCMA/FCMA

------------------------------

From: John Chow <jychow@au.oracle.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:25:59 +1100
Subject: eskrima: Bruce Lee defeated by Ramos???

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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>I just read a Philippine Newspaper on line and there was an article
>about a Filipino who claims his father Trovador Ramos beat Bruce Lee
>in two live matches.   Apparently, the producers of that match burned
the
>film to protect BL .   The article went on to say that there is a tape
out there
>were saved negatives of these matches. I doubt if this story is true
unless
>some of you guys seen the saved negatives.
>I heard about a Filipino claiming to have been the only person to have
>beaten BL when I still lived in the Philippines but paid no attention
to it ,
>as a matter of fact we used to laugh about it.  Wonder if he was the
one.
>Trovador Ramos ( the one who claims to have beaten BL ) went on to
>develop his own art of self defense w/c is now called Tracma -Trovador
>Ramos Asian Consolidated Martial Arts.(anyone hear about this art?)
>A combination of Chinese, Japanese, Korean styles and other
>influences in between. Anyway, his son is now an actor and he was the
>one who told this story.
>        Any of the JKD guys out there hear about this?  Just wondering
>if this story is true?
>To those who are in the Philippines in this list , hear anything?


Yes, I heard of this claim a few years ago.    But I have also heard of
claims and stories by other people too.    The first such claims I heard

was when Bruce Lee was still alive.   I heard the Malay/Indonesian boys
excitedly tell me that BruceLee had been killed in a duel with an
Indonesian martial arts actor a week ago in Indonesia.
I just laughed (you know..... the laugh that is more a scoff than a
laugh):-
1) If Bruce Lee died, it would be in the Chinese newspapers in a
    flash.   It does not take 1 week, and still has not appeared in the
news.
2) Bruce Lee was a martial artist turned axtor.   The other guy is an
    actor turned martial artist.    I have more confidence in Bruce Lee.

3) Bruce Lee was not in Indonesia at that time (They countered that he
    could have made a secret trip)
4) Would have been stupid of Bruce to accept a death duel, and I know he

    turned down a death duel with another Chinese MA (They countered
that it
    may not have been a death duel.   The other chap could have hit
Bruce's
    fatal points).

Guess what?   Bruce appeared as healthy as ever in the news a week
later.   End of the story.

I am not saying this Ramos did or did not defeat Bruce Lee.   There is
no evidence to date that he did.   It is up to him to produce evidence
for
claims that he made.   But........  I have heard of other claims, which
I think
may not be that reliable.

Yeah, there has been a few stories floating around.   I have heard of
Bruce Lee being defeated in Malaysia too!   But examination of the facts

reveal that Bruce Had never been to Malaysia.

It is very well to gang up with friends and collaborators to invent
stories of defeating someone who has already died and can not even deny
that the event took place.   It would have been far better and
productive if
the victors proclaimed their alleged victory while the victim is still
alive
and very healthy.

By the way, I have a short email about GM Ramos.   See below.
His contact details as of 1998 January was:-
105 Libis Nadurata St.
Caloocan City, Metro Manila, Philippines
tel: 237075

Anybody wishes to follow up on the magazine and the event?    From what
I deduced from that post, it was in the Filipino Community Centre so it
was possibly a public event or tournament of something of that sort.

And authenticate the photos of the event also?   There are lots of
'look-alikes'.
nd photogragphs can be dubbed.

Anybody has any ideas whether Bruce Lee was participating in any fights
in HK in 1971?    Thought that was not his habit, especially after he
went
into the movies.

The part that I am still confused about is:-
>bruce lee was fast according to my grandmaster who happened to sparred
>with him in the early `71s full contact in hong kong the last one was
held
>at the Filipino Community Center ,Hong Kong.   Bruce never had a chance

>to hear from my GM unlce because my GrandMaster was faster than him.
>
Assuming the writer is talking about the same master fighter, the 1st
sentence indicates they must have met because they sparred, but the 2nd
sentence says Bruce never had a chance to hear from him.    There must
be
a typing error, missing bits somewhere......

Would be good if the JKD people follow this up and tell us.

                 ***************************************************
This was the email:-

bruce lee was fast according to my grandmaster who happened to sparred
with him in the early `71s full contact in hong kong the last one was
held at
the Filipino Community Center ,Hong Kong.    Bruce never had a chance to

hear from my GM unlce because my GrandMaster was faster than him.
after the
said  fight bruce offered him a part in one of his movie Return of the
Dragon which
my GM will be killed by Bruce.   To make story short he turned him
down.   So
after that they made good friends and Bruce promised after Game of Death
they `ll
be together in next movie location Rome.   My GM name is Red Belt Master

Trovador Ramos TRACMA INT`L. base in Hong Kong.     I have the Hong Kong
magazine about it & picture of the fight.

         *************************************************************

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------------------------------

From: ARNISTE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 03:11:04 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Red Belt Master Trovador Ramos

Meowmix to all,
When RBM Ramos was still playing in the band(leader) i n one of the popular 
Hong Kong
nigthclub Bruce came to see him . It was a  friendly visit nothing special.I 
do have pictures
of Bruce at  the club wearing just a striped under shirt or Kamisadentro in 
spanish.There 
were  sitting opposite each other.He was offered a part  in the  Return of 
the Dragon but RBM
Ramos turned it down.That`s why it`s all over in Hong Kong news Trovador who 
turned down Bruce Lee. But Bruce made a promised that after Game of Death 
,RBM Trovador and Bruce 
will be starred together in the movie  location will be Rome and that`s the 
end of it. I have
Hong Kong Magazines with RBM Ramos three pages and  interviewed . He  was the 
head of the  JUI-JUITSU Int`l before the forming of the TRACMA INT`L.
Hope this will help,
Nelson"PinoyKowboy"Trinidad
CATSociety(Combat Arnis Tabak Society)

------------------------------

From: Patrick Davies <Patrick.Davies@Halliburton.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:57:39 -0000
Subject: eskrima: to hit or block..

Just my impression marc, but you seem to argue both sides of the fence here.
I base so much of my teaching on the punching and kicking side of the arts.
One of the things I learnt from Rick Young is that a trap will be
ineffectual if someone doesn't know how to punch properly. 
Now there's punching and then there's PUNCHING. So that puts me into the
teaching someone how to hit hard with that damn fine stick so that they
understand what they will have to block. Of course we don't wait with the
trap till the punch is that of a Prince Nazeem (tyson would be politically
incorrect in the UK at the present moment!) and nor will we wait with the
block until the forearm smash is of epic proportions. However the strike
comes first. Must do otherwise the block wont make sense...?
May I continue with your mail..

From:	AnimalMac@aol.com <mailto:AnimalMac@aol.com> 
Someone else:<< I think that the development of the ability to hit hard and
fast is more
important, or at least is more important to learn first. >>

Marc: <<Conversely, I would maintain that teaching a student how to block
effectively 
against just such a blow needs to be taught first - especially since that is

exactly what he/she would encounter coming from an untrained opponent with a

baseball bat. >>

<<A serious flaw I have found in much MA training is that it often focuses
too 
much on what you are going to do to your opponent. Now putting aside all 
hairy chested drivel about how effective a fighting art is, let's not forget

one really important fact. About half of the guys who go into a fight LOSE! 
That's right, at least half, if not more of people involved in a fight go in

expecting to win and are rudely suprised. Way too often the guy who loses
was 
so wrapped up in what he was going to do to his opponent that he forgot what

his opponent could do to him. The guy is called your opponent for a reason, 
he ain't on your side!>>

Now I see a difference here. I see a lot of fighting as being a territorial
thing and in general is as much about bravado as it is about actually
destroying someone. Those that go out to really maim usually pick their
targets and make sure that they are going to win. There are those who fit
into your scenario and I agree with you there BUT, in my limited experience,
it is not the usual.
Now I know from previous conversations that you are really talking about
those serious sharks out there that we really have to be afraid of. It's
just that the crowd at my gym really don't meet that opponent much but will
face the intimidation from a streetfighter bully who is roaming the street
calling it his own after a couple of lagers on the Saturday night. Maybe
from their neighbour who has the music too loud or with the guy that looks
at my wife just longer than I find acceptable. Fortunately in the UK this
situation tends, in general, to be weapon free most of the time.
Winning for them is a different definition from what you have said. Winning
for them is just to get out of there. I know of some gangs who considered it
winning to walk down the street of a different town and give and take some
slaps. The fact that they had been there was enough.
Derek has been training with me for five years. Walking home after a night
out he gets accosted by two youths keen on attacking him or stealing his
take away food he was devouring. Derek is everyone's friend. You would feel
comfortable with him immediately. Two guys get more than they bargained for.
He rushes to see me the next day and thanks me for having trained him!!
Derek's definition of winning was getting out of that situation he was in.
He didn't go in there to do something specific.
So the definition is broader than the one you give, although I do not intend
to rubbish what you say.

<<Now I am a firm believer that about 90% of all the fancy dan stuff I have 
seen taught as martial arts will get blown out of the water by a less 
sophisticated brute power move. And believe it or not I blame this on the 
fact that MAers tend to be an incesteous bunch. Now not that I am implying 
that you are horsing around with your sister - but think about this concept 
for a second - do we, as we advance in a system, tend to fight others who
are 
equally, if not more, advanced in that particular system? In otherwords 
buckos, we train to fight train fighters. In time that tends to lead us away

from raw unsophisticated power attacks.>>

I accept this but also tackle it in my class.

<<Then comes some white belt with no control, no finese and no skill who
rings 
our chimes. (I would like to hear from any high ranking player who hasn't 
gotten pegged in this manner...brother, I'll buy you a beer). We often tend 
to write it off to "beginner's luck" or "Yeah, but if I was trying to hurt 
him, it never would have happened" rather than looking at the possibility 
that the technique itself isn't designed to withstand a direct power attack.


There is an old fencing maxium "The world's greatest swordsman has nothing
to 
fear from the world's second greatest swordsman. He knows everything the 
other swordsman will do. It is the rank amatuer, who will do something 
totally unpredictable, that will get him.">>

hey! Its just like driving on the motorway!

<<If your blocks can handle a raw club swing sort of attacks, then you can
get 
more sophisticated and intricate. However, let's remember that, if you ever 
have to use this stuff, the odds are you won't be facing another eskrimador
. 
While skill and finesse will win out in the long run, if the guy is swinging

a tire iron at you, the issue will be solved right off the bat.>>

ok, this is where I think we differ and its in understanding the question.
We are not tallikng about teaching somone to do all the fancy stuff. Simple,
in my understanding, we are talking about the understanding of what the
strike constitutes first. From that first base we can then choose to look at
the block or deflection. I have seen some neat trappers but when you put
that forward energy ointo it they sometimes get a little stuck. In the same
vein if the student doesn't appreciate a good hard strike what the hell are
they doing trying to block something they don't understand

Respect to you and your wife
Pat
Aberdeen Martial Arts Group
http://www.mcfann.cjb.net/ <http://www.mcfann.cjb.net/> 


------------------------------

From: "Jerry Bikendova" <jbikendova@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:52:59 GMT
Subject: eskrima: Re: Silat, etc.

Security:
I never thought Guro Crafty was trying to take a dig at Silat. But I was 
surprised at the response of many Silat afficianodos, which at times seemed 
to border on insecurity.

Biting, scratching, etc.:
Obviously possibly effective techniques, but we are still left with a couple 
of problems. If you are in an inferior position (which you probably will be 
if you have practiced a lot of biting and scratching forms/djurus while your 
opponent was doing Wrestling or BJJ) and you choose to bite, scratch, eye 
gouge, whatever, and your opponent doesn't die (I know your instructor may 
have assured you he would, but in real life sometimes people don't.) you 
will be in a world of shit. Why? Because you have just turned what could 
have been a situation that you might have escaped from by tapping, 
apologizing, begging, etc. into a death match. And guess what (if you forgot 
about the situation above) you are on the bottom! What does this mean in 
practical terms? It means you had one chance to bite, scratch, eye jab, and 
now your opponent has till next Christmas to do the same thing to you. Deal 
with it.

In a word, the bite/scratch argument is merely a modern but still tired 
version of the old "I don't go to the ground." bull.

Jerry
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


------------------------------

From: "Mike Barnes" <mbarnes@seortho.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:51:20 -0500
Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #19  <Power vs Deflection>

I believe the ability to hit hard is important; however, if your adversary =
is faster, bigger, stronger, or any other characteristic than you are, =
then your defense better be good.  =20
I remember a quote from some where in my childhood.  "The largest of trees =
can be felled with the smallest of hatchets."  I think this is very true.  =
If you don't have power and you have a good defense then your chance to =
get in more shots than your adversary will be greater.  Plus if you know =
what you are doing...you should know where to hit.

This is just my 2 pennies worth..


Mike Barnes
Inayan System of Eskrima
Lenoir City, TN


------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <rterry@idiom.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:44:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [none]


------------------------------

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