From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #28 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 19 Jan 2000 Vol 07 : Num 028 In this issue: eskrima: ED shirts? eskrima: Streetfighting eskrima: baseball story eskrima: 1,000 techniques eskrima: Re: more silat etc eskrima: Blocks etc. eskrima: Leave it to Beaver land Re: eskrima: Re: more silat etc eskrima: Leave it to Beaver land [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:21:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: ED shirts? People seem to like, I think it was, Tuhon Bill's idea, i.e. a T-shirt with: From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Reply-to: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com on the front, and Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. on the back. Or maybe the front blank/plain with the immediately above on the back. Thoughts? Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:19:30 EST Subject: eskrima: Streetfighting In a message dated 1/18/00 9:18:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Well all the threads on streetfighting gave me idea.Why dont we post our latest "encounters"---"streetfights"----"confrontations" and examine them here on ED. Im sure they will serve to enlighten us all and help us "grow". I think most here on ED are "fairly" mature adults and dont go out and get in fights on a daily basis but any open discussion is bound to help---this is somewhat like a Cyber Dojo for the mind. Lets agree to be honest My last confrontation happened in W.V. in the parking lot of the Gym. It was aboout a week before Christmas.I was coming out of the Gym after a good workout,I was in a good frame of mind, feeling pumped, you know the feeling you get after a good heavy weight training workout. On the way out the door I passed a guy getting into his truck,he was ohh 45 yrs old,in fair shape,totally normal looking.Thinking nothing of it I continued on my way to my truck following a straight line that took me across the parking lot to the other side.Well about half way across the parking lot the guy in the truck that i had just passed coming out decides to gun it in front of me barley missing me as he passes in his truck.Maybe 12" between me and a bad day.I had made eye contact with him as i was walking out and figured he was going to wait while i crossed in front of him(which is what most halfway decent people will do at the gym) Well I know some of you will be disapointed in a fellow MA, but I couldn't resist.I gave him the bird,waving it up in the air hoping he would see it in his rear view mirrior. Well he did. He slammed on the breaks,I threw down the weight belt and keys running toward the truck,I guess i was thinking that i wanted to close the distance so i could surmize the situation a little closer.I stopped about 10 feet behind his truck.and basicly just waited to see what action he was going to take.He was coming out screaming somethng I dont recall because i was paying too much attention to his hands/legs body mechanics,well he walked up ohh 5 feet away and stoped just short of "the Zone", we engaged in a few words.I was waiting for the a flinch/jerk/start/sudden movement/something to indicate an attack of some sort.Well after we argued few more seconds he abruptly apologizes and goes back to his truck and drives away. O.k. Heres the honest part.Some part of me really was disapointed that I didnt push the fight.You know that sickly part of you down inside that says "you puss" why didnt you level him?!!" "why didnt you take a shot?!" "you're less than a man" You know that other side of you that wanted to see blood---his--- all that plus the adrenaline pump that goes with it. The other part was of me was somewhat satisfied in the way it was handled.(beside the fact that perhaps I shouldnt have gave him the finger)I mean I was ready for action during the entire altercation if you would call it that.I was glad it didnt escalate. Hindsite is 20/20. Im open for critisicm Should I have gave him the bird? After the fact that i did should I have handled it (tacticly) differant?Maybe approching the truck differantly ect.ect. Lets be honest.No "Mr. Miyagi stuff" :) I know i should have controled my temper but it was a situation that i didnt.Dont we all have them? Barry ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:39:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: baseball story Ray, at about $18.00 a shirt and 1100 members strong I calculate $19,800.00 if everyone gets one. Boy, you better send me a free shirt. ; ). True story about a bat vs empty hands: One night we had a guy come to the house with a bat looking for trouble. James and our instructor was outside, I was upstairs and rushed down once I heard the commotion. James had his shirt off and our instructor had just opened his ASP baton and started to creep. The guy didn’t know who to look at, this boxer jumping around with his shirt off or this little old filipino man with a stick creeping in on him. He started to back up until he saw me creeping from the back. The guy started to panic as he just realized it was him in trouble. Just as he cranked back for his strongest blow, James leaped in, monitored his elbow at pressure zero, snaked and tweaked his arms with the bat and told the guy to let go of the bat. He didn’t let go so our instructor continued to rail his legs with his ASP as I jumped in reached over and nailed his ulna radius with my unicorn (middle knuckle exposed commonly used in the guntings). To make a long story short (isn’t this ironic) he never got his bat back and we heard that he was very grateful that we let him go, very lucky that we chose not to mob him, and respected us a lot for that. The point is that although it didn’t exactly look like the pretty type of technique that is practiced. It was very rough, un-smooth, and the snake disarm was hard to do because this guy thought that if he dropped the bat he would probably be killed. Remember, he came here to hurt us. The only reason he dropped the bat was a combo of the snake and the limb destruction. The important thing was that it worked, and we found out not as smooth as we thought because of adrenaline, his un-cooperation, poor lighting(2:30 in the morning). I think that last point is even related to the silat throws/striking thread: I don’t think the point was that most throws only work with hitting, it’s that it works better (not necessarily better, but has a higher success rate, which in my eyes constitutes as better for the politically correct) with hitting. The little hits in between are the pockets or the seasoning that supports the entrée. Sure you can cook a steak by itself with no seasoning but it taste better to some with rosemary and mushrooms, or garlic and onions, or hawaiian salt, etc. Anyways glad to see the post has picked up, it’s one of the things I look forward to throughout the day. “I wonder if you did that in battle, would it matter?” Mel Gibson/William Scott-Braveheart ===== "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:54:42 -0500 Subject: eskrima: 1,000 techniques Arlan wrote: "I agree with Bill on this, that everyone needs to find their 10%, but I disagree a little on the approach. Martial arts seems to have become a little bloated, perhaps because very few of us use it to protect our lives or those of our families, I'd bet that 99% of the people on the list have never swung a stick in anger or stuck someone with a knife in defense. At some point techniques seem to be added without regards to where you want to end up. I think P-T is a great system, I've seen how it works for the fighters who have trained in it (Eric, Philip, Loki,etc). It's great to have a system that strives to cover every eventuality, but it will never happen, no matter what you know, someone's going to do something that will screw you up. I think it's better to teach a few basic things and work to develop adaptation and not rote. Using Bill's numbers comes to about a thousand techniques! Even if I could learn and master one a week, that's a thousand weeks! Which is what, twenty years? Do you teach each person what you think they would use out of that, or do they have to learn all and then sort what works for them? " (snip) Arlan raises a very important point. I think how much you teach, greatly depends on how much time you have. Tuhon Gaje began training at 6 years old. He finished the system at 18. Are you going to teach advanced material to a child or are you going to work on basic body mechanics and a vocabulary of techniques. I started at 14 and he didn't teach me in the same order he was taught. He started his stick work with all 12 sets of 12 attacks in single stick. When I began training he went from the first 12 right into the two man timing drills of 64 attacks. When given a very short period to work with someone, he would give them only basic 5 attacks and some footwork. Going back to the medical school analogy I used in the article. If you are given a 17 year old high school graduate and told that you can train him in medicine for the next ten years before he will lay hands on his own patients, you might train him to be a surgeon. However, if you are told he has to be able to do something in 6 months you might train him to be an paramedic. When I had gone through the whole system, I thought that most of the best stuff was saved for last ("the best stuff saved for last", is that one defection of advanced?). Things like stick grappling, third hand strikes in single stick, the big power shots, etc. were "backloaded" in the system. The first thing I teach in single stick is what I call the Single Stick Subsystem. In it I have tried to take elements of basic, middle and advanced Pekiti-Tirsia theories and make them accusable to beginners by superimposing them over basic strikes. In general, what I try to do in my training, is to put everyone though a 3 month "first aid" course in each of 4 weapon categories (3 months with single stick, 3 with double, 3 with hand vs. knife and 3 with hand vs. hand). This comprises my requirements for Yakan rank in Pekiti-Tirsia (see the rank chart on the PTI web site: www.pekiti-tirsia.com). After their "first aid" course, student are free to continue their training on a path towards getting the full system step by step from "A" to "Z". When Tuhon Gaje and I set up the rank structure for PTI he estimated that it would take a student, beginning as an adult, about 10 years to complete the entire system (it took me 15, but that would be no surprise if you saw me when I started). The only student I have put through the whole system did it in 7 years, but he hit the ground running with 25 years in martial arts before he met me. I think it all comes down to where you are coming from, where you are going, and how much time you have to get there. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:13:32 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: more silat etc In a message dated 1/18/00 9:17:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: >>a) our techniques would be de facto useless in the gross majority of the situations that we would run into. Of course it would be a >> different story if we live in say, Chechnya. It's easier to make something "softer" than to take something less functional and make more so. At least for me. >> b) we would never know if our fatal/maining techniques would really work in real time against resisting opponent. How many people can we scratch / bite/ decapitate in practise? If we have never perform a technique "for real", how do >> we know if the technique can be performed? Do you need to break an arm or limb or neck or pull ligaments to believe a lock works? Yeah scratching and even biting (unless it's in the neck or femoral (major vein)) ain't much in and of themselves... I do not doubt decapitation though! Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: Michael Koblic Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:29:38 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Blocks etc. Animal: >My point isn't that far from what you are saying. However, the emphasis I >teach is start with a "worst case scenario," which is to block. Yeah it >hurts, yeah it gets your teeth rattled, but at least you didn't get your head >split. Then teach deflection, which is easier, slicker and less traumatic to >your little body. It also allows you to riposte more effectively than you can >from most blocks. Then you teach them to strike - using incidentally many of >the same elements that you taught them in blocking. There seems to be some dispute as to what one calls a block. In your book "Taking it to the streets" (my treat for Christmas, great reading, wish I had three evenings to talk to you about it!) you seem to distinguish between various types of block: the one where you block the moving part (difficult, painful, bad) and the one where you block as close to the fulcrum of the movement as possible (quicker easier and less painful - definitely good). Perhaps one should call the latter a "jam" and reserve the name "block" for the traditional TKD etc. type of stuff. Thus, I can "jam" a baseball bat if I get in close quickly enough but I definitely cannot block it. I have seen at least three schools advocating the initial defensive move based on a forward jam regardless of attack (Tony Blauer is one). If I understood your book correctly, your principles are similar although the wedge has a different form. And here is the disclaimer: In no way do I imply any plagiarism on anybody's part! I still believe that great minds think alike and am happy to accept that Marconi and Popov invented radio independently... Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:32:05 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Leave it to Beaver land Hey Animal nice article: Laughing boy writes: > On any given day there are hundreds or thousands of bar fights, street fights > and fights for money, marbles or chalk. While they are sometimes rough, there > is normally an implied code that is observed by both parties. Although the > fight isn't over until the winner says so, the winner doesn't kill the > vanquished foe. > > He must live in leave it to Beaver land. The very word fight means to inflict pain or punishment to overcome your adversary by force, to beat up or tenderize your opponent. In Detroit, and most metropolitans, fighting means, if you win you only get a little bit beat up, if you lose you get a whole lotta beaten up ( if your lucky ) other wise the gophers will be bringing you your mail, know what I mean!!! Hopefully this clown will never find himself in a real life situation, cause I am afraid he may end up with an ass whoop'n equal in proportion to his ignorance. Rocky ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:21:24 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: more silat etc > >> b) we would never know if our fatal/maining > techniques would really work in real time against > resisting opponent. How many people can we > scratch / bite/ decapitate in practise? If we > have never perform a technique "for real", how do > >> we know if the technique can be performed? > > Do you need to break an arm or limb or neck or pull ligaments to believe a > lock works? Yeah scratching and even biting (unless it's in the neck or > femoral (major vein)) ain't much in and of themselves... I do not doubt > decapitation though! Where a bite is very useful is in getting someone to move, shift position / weight, often all the way off you. This may provide one an alternative or two to the present situation, e.g. get away, re-engage from a more neutral position, etc. You act upon their reaction. Have I used it? No. Have it seen it successfully use? Several times. In many cases the attacker completely ceased their attack as they thought, and perhaps rightfully so, they were in with a crazy person and that maybe you aren't such an easy mark afterall. Is the person going to be POed? Yep. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:32:05 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Leave it to Beaver land Hey Animal nice article: Laughing boy writes: > On any given day there are hundreds or thousands of bar fights, street fights > and fights for money, marbles or chalk. While they are sometimes rough, there > is normally an implied code that is observed by both parties. Although the > fight isn't over until the winner says so, the winner doesn't kill the > vanquished foe. He must live in leave it to Beaver land. The very word fight means to inflict pain or punishment to overcome your adversary by force, to beat up or tenderize your opponent. In Detroit, and most metropolitans, fighting means, if you win you only get a little bit beat up, if you lose you get a whole lotta beaten up ( if your lucky ) other wise the gophers will be bringing you your mail, know what I mean!!! Hopefully this clown will never find himself in a real life situation, cause I am afraid he may end up with an ass whoop'n equal in proportion to his ignorance. Rocky ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:30:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #28 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Standard disclaimers apply.