From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #38 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 21 Jan 2000 Vol 07 : Num 038 In this issue: eskrima: upcoming seminars and tournaments in New York eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 eskrima: Re: Code of conduct in the FMA eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 eskrima: Re: Street fighting... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #37 eskrima: My $.02... eskrima: Who knows what lurks in the heart of men? The Shadow knows , , , eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 eskrima: Re: Character and the Martial Arts [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "james lankford" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 23:29:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: upcoming seminars and tournaments in New York This is a page where I keep some information on schools, seminars and tournaments in New York. There are some good ones coming up really soon. http://users.erols.com/jlankford/FMA_in_NY.html ------------------------------ From: hec mail Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:32:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 > > While this may have some truth in it, perhaps for people in small >villages or out in the countryside, for the most part, eskrimadors of the >modern era (let's say the last 50-75 years) were not "kind, gentle,...". > The people who learned eskrima in the past used it for personal >protection, or for the good of their family or group, but many also found a >way to use it for their own personal gain. In general, eskrimadors tended to >be from the lower end of the social scale, the poorest, among the least >educated and, just like the same group of people in any western city, were >the most willing to use what they learned. > Because of the social order in the Philippines, rich people had/have >small personal armies that they use to conduct their "business". Eskrimadors >were often an integral part of these groups. Even today, many of the old >eskrimadors were at one point members of some rich guy's personal force. I >can think of three famous examples right off the top of my head in Cebu, and >these are people I know personally. They learned eskrima as young men, >either joined the army (and perhaps fought in WW II or one of the many >smaller events, local or otherwise) or the police force, and when they left >they joined some sort of private group, or used the art as needed, such as >for working on the docks, as an enforcer for gangs, etc.. A good example was >Delphin Lopez, one of the most feared balintawak fighters. He was a >high-ranking officer in the Cebu police department, and when he left it, >became the head of the Cojuanco clan's security. There is still a Delphin >Lopez Security Company in business today in Cebu. > Most of the old men that I know are still living and I don't think it's >appropriate to put their names or current/past affiliations on a public >forum, but if any of them are kind and gentle today, it is because they >learned from a life full of warfare and conflict that that is the way to be. >Eskrima was violence and conflict, and whatever kindness and gentleness >developed came from that conflict and the insight that grew out of it, not >the eskrima training! > The simple fact that they are so expert in the arts speaks volumes about >their younger days. You don't get good at fighting unless you fight a lot, >and you don't continue to fight if you aren't winning. In addition, winning >and getting respect from people is just plain enjoyable, especially if one >is near the bottom of the social pecking order in most other aspects! > This is not a put down of these men by any means. I am of the opinion >that all martial arts were once this way. Philosophy came later, after >survival. It is amazing what surviving combat does for one's viewpoint, and >unless you have been there, no one can explain it to you. These "kind, >gentle..." men learned what is important from combat. They did not start out >kind and gentle, nor did they learn some code of kindness from eskrima. They >first learned how to be successful in a violent encounter, then learned the >value of peace from that violence. > >Steve > I would agreed that eskrimadors that came up within the last 50-70 years were not "Boy Scouts". But you hear more stories of the few that went out and fought & did foolish things that got them in trouble. You don't hear about the guys that learned the art and continued living an ordinary life, and when they fought it was because they had to. Their victory was a silent one. A friend of mine his father is now 89 is one of those ordinairy guy. He got into two fights when he was growing up in the Philipine. He killed one, and the other fight the guy didn't want to continue. You will never hear his name as being a famous Eskrimador, but his movements and knowledge is just as good as any of the living "old timer" out there. The code that I was talking about existed before the Spanish arival. There was a warrior class. Their training included both combat and healing skills. Eskrimadors were well respected and had influence within the inner circles of their society at that time. When Spain took over. The warrior class ceased to exist. I guesed it would make sense since the art went into a clandestine status. That is what I was told. How true it is... I have no proof. But as with any society that has an organized military you got to have some form of guidance/code in place. Otherwise you will no controll over them. Now, here is my theory. When Spain took controll some of these Eskrimadors became unemployed, so their martial skills became a tool of survival for them. If they did train someone, it was to a few close friends or family members. The code/guidance was now up to each individual to teach it or not. John Lau ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________ Service Brought To You By http://WWW.DWP.NET ------------------------------ From: Terry Tippie Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:35:08 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Code of conduct in the FMA I don't know which FMA instructors have or teach from a written code of conduct. Maybe some do, and good for them. I'd be interested to check it out. I know a couple of my Thai instructors had lists. Ajarn Sumai had five things as it turns out. I would submit, however, that there are other ways of learning conduct than via a written code. Students learn a lot, sometimes more than you would like, from the example set by their teacher. My first instructor emphasized this point heavily when I first started to student teach, i.e., your students will learn as much from your actions as from your words--both physically and in terms of conduct. If you are soft and lazy they will be soft and lazy. If you are jealous and talk trash your students will exhibit the same qualities. Conversely, if you make an effort to treat people with compassion and decency your students will learn from that. And if you train hard, hit hard and have good form your students will too. That is why it is important to set a good example, both personally and physically. It's a big responsibility. Learning by example is a big part of learning conduct. Think of your parents. I bet they did make some rules for you, but what you learned from them about personal conduct went way beyond that. It's similar in martial arts. Respectfully, Terry Tippie Pacifica, CA USA ------------------------------ From: "paul martin" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:05:09 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 >R Saturno, Jr wrote: >.A reasonable man shouldn't need that in >.writing. Would any guro who didn't understand that >be .any .different >.than >Jeff Bridges' sensei character in the "Karate Kid?" So we should ignore the great works of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism... because it is written down? Written knowledge is just a starting point, it should never be ignored. Bill wrote: >As a FMA instructor and retired military member who has taught >military >personnel for more than 2 decades, I feel that this statement is >untrue. Which statement is untrue? I tend to make alot of them. If you are referring to my statement that there is litte or no training in morality or a code of conduct, that is strictly based on my experience with FMA, I am throwing this out there because I want to see if there are other experiences. Thankfully, I am learning quite a bit. I agree with your point about the hotshots not making it. I am glad to hear that your FMA training was based on more than just the physical art. Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Steve_Harvey@3com.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:09:13 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Street fighting... Sure the guy who grabs your wife's derriere deserves a punch in the nose, and an idiot who almost runs over you deserves to get the bird. Thank goodness we don't always get what we deserve. Look at it from the standpoint of social evolution: in most tribal cultures, war was generally constant as distinct social groups competed for natural resources. Some might say this was good, and it was, if you were a successful warrior. If you were a victim, it sucked, and it suppressed the quality of life in general. Even then, inter-clan vendettas were considered divisive and extremely dangerous to the welfare of the tribe. Our tribes are getting bigger and bigger today. We are almost all one big tribe. In order for society to work, we have to suppress selfish impulses. We do this all the time within our own families, putting personal pride aside for the sake of a marriage for example. This is something we all have to do, and it is in our own best interest. If we all acted in the interest of ego, pride, or just a will to dominate we would wind up with a society like the wolves have, where only the meanest and strongest animals get la.., er, are genetically successful, and the rest have to roll over and take a good chewing whenever they step out of line. That don't sound like fun to me. Better to calmly inform the stupid SOB that his actions are sexual assault, a serious crime, and that if he doesn't stop it he is going to have to deal with the legal justice system. If the guy is confrontational, get your SO, and yourself out of the war zone. A smart fellow on one of the tactical web forums recently defined tactical success as sleeping at home with his family every night. The well-being of your family is the largest objective in the battle of life, and avoiding combat, while being prepared for it when you can't, is the best strategy. I think it is crucial that as our preparedness increases, the line between aviodable and unavoidable doesn't slip. So it comes down to winning, just with a different definition where instead of an SOB getting what he deserves, you keep your family safe, including yourself. After all, in the long view, SOBs always get what they deserve. ------------------------------ From: "paul martin" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:22:22 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #37 Dan Runtao wrote: >The loss of morality or conduct in FMA happens because there has >been a >big >change in the objectives or goals on why we need to learn the art. >Traditionally the goal is for the protection of your village, >country, >loved ones, the weak and yourself. Now, the goal is to get >those almighty >dollars. >I never paid a single cent to any of my instructors, except of >course for >gifts on Christmas and birthdays. We were trained under a similiar approach. My instructors were fellow military men and a college professor. Dr. Barber taught and still teaches FMA as a self defense course at a community college. I was invited to continue training through the higher ranks privately and paid no money except for equiptment fees and things like that. The work was all that really mattered on the floor. paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Roan Kalani Grimm" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:27:25 -0700 Subject: eskrima: My $.02... > Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >The essential >historical use of the FMA was in defense of the sovereignty of the Phillipine >Islands and the Filipino way of life from invaders from all parts of the >world throughout history. Hmmm...so are you saying that in the entire history of the Philippines, no one tribe or individual used their art to try and take stuff (food, land, women, etc.) from another tribe? Long before the invaders from all over the world came to attack, the filipinos were doing it to each other (one tribe vs. another). So in that case, they were using their art in offense. Not trying to be a wise-ass, but just trying to show a point that I think is valid. And in response to the morality issue, my instructor didn't impose his beliefs or values on his students for a simple reason...he didn't accept students who didn't already have a good sense of morality. Stuart, Chad, some back-up here? When Datu took me in for training, I had already had some rudimentary eskrima training from my grandfather. But my parents and the Marines had already shaped and solidified my core values, beliefs and principles. Datu saw that I wasn't a trouble maker after my first month with him, and so he agreed to let me continue to train and then taught me the combat aspects of eskrima/silat (as opposed to the simple coordination drills he was showing me before he had a "feel" for me). That was how Datu ensured the morality of his students...he only took in "good" people to train. This is because when he was younger, he had a group of students who weren't "good" people, who eventually beat up a very old man to "prove" they were tough. It broke Datu's heart that they had done this so he stopped training them (and anyone else) flat out, and it took a long time before he was convinced to begin training again. But he didn't influence my morality; it had always been there. And unless an instructor's student comes from a home where the parents haven't established good core values, beliefs and principles, then I don't think he/she should take it upon themselves to teach that student a code of ethics. Yes, the instructor may require that student follow certain tenets and act a certain way, but I think American society has forgotten that ultimately, parents are responsible for their children being good people, not someone else. "Yeah, but what about those hundreds of gang-bangers whose parents tried to show them the right way, but it didn't work?" Well, I 'll counter by saying, "What about the HUNDREDS-OF-THOUSANDS of kids who don't make the news because THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE WHO DON'T BREAK THE LAW AND/OR HURT OTHERS." We often remember the negative because it is continually given press and forget about the much more prevalent positive, because it isn't given air-time. And in response to whomever critiqued me by saying that it was my girlfriend's fight if someone touched her butt, and to only step in to prevent her from getting hurt. I appreciate your point of view, and sorry I didn't make myself clear. I agree with you that I would step in only if she wanted me to. Let me clarify, I would AND HAVE let her handle the situation when it arose. In fact, the first time I met her, she was straight-blasting (literally) a french exchange student who had groped her one to many times in his best "Pepe LePew" impersonation. She had three solid connections, one to his chest and the other two to his face. I think that's part of the reason I was so attracted to her from the get go...she had "fire". (BTW, way to go Roaring Girl!) But there was an incident where a bunch of football players grabbed her and tried to forcefully get her to go with them. She got into a computer lab and to safety with the help of a good citizen who happened to be around at the moment, but she was scared badly because she was powerless in that situation. Those are the kind of guys who I have no reservation about stomping, because they prey on women (or just weaker people) and often get away with it. Those are the assholes I will continue to stomp if given the motive (if I witness them abusing someone, sexually or physically) and the opportunity. Whew, again, sorry about the length of the rant everyone, and apologies if my language offended. As always...peace, respect and an open mind (even to those of you who "yell" at me). ;-) Aloha, Kalani "We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best is he who is trained in the severest school." -- Thucydides ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:18:14 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Who knows what lurks in the heart of men? The Shadow knows , , , A Howl etc: Tom wrote: "As for the thread saying we should be able to fight out our differences, we've become overcivilized, men are programmed to fight and we are working against nature stuff...We're also "programmed" to mate with every attractive female we see too, but I don't think my wife would buy that one." Since I get similar responses on a semi-regular basis, I'm guessing that this is in reference to my post. So as part of my ongoing efforts to express the ideas involved better, herewith some further thoughts: There is a precision in the use of the word "aggression" that sometimes is not perceived by some. It is NOT synonymous with fighting and violence. The struggle to climb in a corporation's hierarchy is often quite aggressive, but rarely violent for example. Fighting and violence are but subsets of aggression. Concerning "overcivilization" and "working against nature" my point is not that we are overcivilized, but rather that modern life is quite different from the environments in which the human animal evolved and that there is a profound underlying tension between what we are and where we find ourselves. The question of course is what to do about it. The Dog Brothers videos open with a quote from Carl Jung "The idea is not to imagine figures of light, but to make the darkness conscious." I think this is right. Some of the most dangerous people in the world are those who are unconscious of their own darkness, their shadow in Jungian terms, and thus concomitantly project it upon others and then work themselves up into a righteous indignant fury out of which they aggress, often violently. The Arthur Miller play "The Crucible", about the Salem witch trials, is an excellent study of this dynamic and no doubt most of us can think of examples in history (e.g. Marxist-Leninism) and on the current political scene (e.g. American liberalism in the last 30 years). Those who are weak in facing the darkness in others have not solved the matter; merely they are the moral reason we have armies and police and protecting heroes. The great trick is to be capable and not take unfair advantage of it. My point is that as civilization evolves for better and for worse, we need to ground the aggressive instinct in constructive ways. To move forward we must harmonize with our past. My point here is NOT one of violence. Witness my various political rants: the cornerstone of libertarian thought is that the Government is force and that progress is decreasing the areas in life where we deal with each other by force and increasing the areas of voluntary cooperation-- sometimes known as the free minds and free markets. Tom of course is right that most men on the instinctive level would like to mate far and wide and that their wives are not likely to have any of it. This is because on the same instinctive level that men want to do this (i.e. to have as many offspring as possible) their women do not want any offspring from other females competing with their man's ability to provide for the offspring they have made together. It is my understanding that the various polygamous cultures have strong strictures limiting multiple wives to men who can provide for them all. These same procreative instincts also explain why there are no (very few? not sure, my readings are incomplete in this area) cultures of one wife with many husbands; i.e. none of the husbands would know whether any offspring were his, whereas the wife always knows it is hers. Also note that I recognize that I merely am speaking of the paradigm and not all cases. Here in America, liberal femi-nazi icon St. Hillary has certainly put up with her husband's philandering, but perhaps has done so because, to put it in terms of aggression theory, our president is the alpha of the American political system and the status thereof turns her on. Or it could be that he knows enough to put her in prison for a long time (and she him for being an agent of the Red Chinese) or it could be because she doesn't care or prefers it-- the two of them are rumored to have met in law school while dating the same girl , , , Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Tobias Kohlenberg Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:22:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #36 On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > ------------------------------ > > From: "Chris D." > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:22:01 GMT > Subject: eskrima: Conduct in FMA > > Greetings all. You guys brought up a good topic. I'll be honest and say that > I've forgotten all about how the original conduct of arnis. I prefer FMA > over the other styles because it takes a more direct approach to fighting. > I've noticed over time while training that I've become aggressive as I > progressed. I guess it's too much self confidence. Going back to the post, > nowadays I think that most fighters are eager to beat up somebody for > crossing them. They can control themselves from doing that, but the itch to > get revenge is sometimes too much for some people. Actually, I have noticed a similar issue; I am less worried about being hit. Namely among other things, I study western boxing, and I have found over time that I have to fight the attitude that "I have been hit in the face during sparing by my teacher. He can punch much harder than most people. You are unlikely to mange to hurt me more than he can/does" This has not yet been an issue (I don't get out enough to have people around who want to fight me) but it has been an interesting change... I don't want to get in a fight, I still don't like being hit, I am just less worried about handling it, if it does happen. Toby Ps. I am curious how many people here practice hardening techniques of one sort or another in anticipation of having to take blows? Do you harden your hands? Stomach? Arms, shins..... finger me for my public key ------------------------------ From: Just This Guy Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:25:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Character and the Martial Arts It's my opinion that the martial arts themselves impart character development, and that they do it outside of any external code. I also believe that the more difficult the training is, the more character development the arts impart, to those who don't wash out due to the hardship. I also think that they impart great charisma. Ever notice the characteristics of the EYES of very good instructors? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #38 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, and Inayan Eskrima Standard disclaimers apply.