From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #78 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 15 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 078 In this issue: eskrima: Not much chance to go for a gun eskrima: Re: Another Roaring Girl/Sparring sticks eskrima: Knives vs expandable batons. eskrima: Re: grappling, etc. eskrima: Re: space to shoot eskrima: Re: space to shoot eskrima: re: kamagong sticks eskrima: Sambo is Ukrainian ??? eskrima: More SB eskrima: Straight blast eskrima: shooting JCC eskrima: bad eye [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:14:22 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Not much chance to go for a gun > From: ABurrese@aol.com > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:55:29 EST > Subject: eskrima: Re: What is the world coming to > > Gary, > > ------------------------------ > > > > Thanks for the info Gary. I am wondering (any lawyers/LEOs out there) why > such grim statistics are never used by the good guys in the defense of a > law-abiding citizen who protects him/herself ? > Jerry > > > From: Luis Pellicer > >What is this leading to. Learn weapon disarms. Learn them well. > > > > The U.S. (except for some states, D.C. etc.) have relatively lax firearm > laws. (At least compared to out here) Many states "must issue" conceal > carry permits for civilians, for as long as they go through the proceedure > and pass all requirements. It is even easier to purchase one for home > defence. If someone enters my home, (and is armed) he's going to be > greeted by 12 gauge 00 or .45 ACP, not a stick or blade. For realistic > self-defence against firearms, I personally wouldn't rely solely in the > MAs. It's a heck of alot quicker to pull a trigger half an inch or less > than it is to move for any unarmed retaliation, and only if the assailant > is a moron will he let you get anywhere close to him.(though there are alot > of them) I would suggest spending time in the firing range and taking a > couple of practical shooting courses to complement MA training, romantic > ideals or National Heritage aside, this is REAL world training. Unarmed > defence is to buy you time to get to your handgun, and you only use the > hand gun because you can't get to (or were stupid enough to leave behind) > you long arm. > LPIII > > ------------------------------ > Jerry, I don't know about using statistics to show that you have a reasonable belief that your life was in danger and therefore allowed to use deadly force. It really comes down to the circumstances surrounding your individual case. You can't even produce evidence about the bad guy's character until you can first show some facts that support your claim that you acted in self defense. In most situations you have to know of the bad guys reputation and that put you in fear. However, when they are in your house after midnight, uninvited, I don't think you have much problem showing it was self defense. I think Bernard Getts (forgive the spelling) in New York tried to use just that type of defense that you are talking about and was somewhat successful. They only got him for possession of an illegal firearm. Luis, In the case where I represented the boy, the problem was that the victims had did not have time to go for a gun unless you watch TV or sleep on the couch fully armed. In the Husband Wife killing, the shooter (which ever one was the shooter) went to the victim's door, knocked and asked if "so and so" lived there, then pushed their way in gun in hand yelling "get back " "get back". In the other case the older lady was supposedly asleep on the couch when she was woken up. Neither would have had time to go for a gun. Gary Hudgins ------------------------------ From: "Scott Kinney" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 19:01:45 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Another Roaring Girl/Sparring sticks If I might throw in my own US$.02. Please don't use wooden dowling for sparring sticks, it breaks into nasty, sharp ends. The same, unfortunately is true for pvc pipe. Taking light rattan sticks, wrapping them in pipe insulation, and then wrapping in duct tape is a good approach. In my last eskrima seminar (Hock Hochheim's Arnis Wintercamp) we had two distinct populations during the end-of-seminar tournament. One group using padded safe sticks (seemed to be a plastic rod wrapped in pipe insulation and then sewn into a rip-stop nylon casing.) and the other used rattan sticks. The padded sticks broke down after a couple of matches. My main complaint with them was actually the 'style' of stick-fighting that padded sticks seemed to encourage. People 'flailed' more than they could have with a real stick, and were prone to charging in a way that would have been suicide if their opponent had a real stick. Folks using the real sticks respected the strikes more, and used more realistic strategies. My real wish would be that the Roaring Girls spar with real sticks, but under the following conditions. 1. Wear good equipment (good fencing cage, street hockey gloves, skateboarder's knee and elbow shields.) It's good to know what a stick hit feels like, but we all have to go to work in the morning. 2. Start slow and set some guidelines (hands and head are targets, how much intensity, how much speed.) 3. Progress to greater intensity when comfortable. 4. Expect to wear at least one stick hickey every so often. Just my opinion. Regards, Scott =A0=A0 - -------------------------------------------------- Scott Kinney Project Manager sakinney@ix.netcom.com - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: T2J2M2@cs.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:07:05 EST Subject: eskrima: Knives vs expandable batons. I have heard a lot about the utility of carrying a small folding knife for self-defense, but no one has seemingly discussed carrying an expandable baton for self-defence.You would have many advantages to carrying a baton. First, you have the advantage of range. Knives are dangerous at the range of thier blade, but a baton is about 26 inches long, more than enough slack to defend yourself. Second, you have a much better chance of avoiding a prison term. Knives are generally seen as deadly force, while with a baton you can say that you did not want to hurt you opponent, just stop him. With a knife, I would think you would have a much harder time with a jury or a prosecuter.Third, broken bones heal, generally leaving no scar, but knives can leave a larger scar, not something you want a jury to see. As a geranal rule, jurys don't like to see blood. With a baton, they don't have to see blood, maybe some bumps and bruises, perhaps a broken bone or two. Chances are, you better off shooting a man than stabbing him. But then again, not everybody is allowed to carry a concealed handgun. At www.uscav.com, thay have an autolocking baton that sells for $90, it is 26 inches long, about the size of a rattan stick. It seems to me to be a better option than carrying a folding blade for defensive purposes. ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Bikendova" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:38:38 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: grappling, etc. "and while satoru sayama isnt know in nhb today, his fighters are - names like egan and enson inoye - and all the guy's who fight the gracies over in japan (i also train with yori nakamora -the heir to the shooto org.)" This is something we should be careful about, and discuss. One thing I really appreciate is honesty about one's teachers. Egan and Enson Inouye learned much of their grappling from Relson Gracie. Yet they credit either Sayama or the Machados (on Egan's video). I understand that their present relationship with Relson is not good, but this does not excuse dishonesty. The fact of the matter is that Shooto champions like Enson and Erik Paulson have BJJ as much as anything to thank for their domination of competitors who don't have that edge. .... "as far as bjj goes - well we have seen bjj guys (i train with the machados) domiante alot of sambo players (i assume sambo is the art you refer to as ukrainan) and the brazilians do know leg locks ect. they just were consider bad sportsmanship holds in the past, but no longer - steve" True that leg locks were a huge factor at this year's world championships. And I'm all for this. The Brazilians are very honest about what they have learned from fighting in Japan. But the heel hook is still illegal; it is not a question of sportsmanship but of danger. Jerry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Bikendova" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:50:46 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: space to shoot "Now, first of all I like to roll. Im an Instructor in the Unified Fighting Arts under Marc McFann and also im a student of Rick Young. Two reknown grapplers. So lets just say I know how to shoot." We might begin by differentiating between reknown grapplers and reknown grappling instructors--there is a difference. "However this has got me thinking here. The fwd pressure of an attack from the JCC would be forcing me backwards that I find it hard to see the shoot, a hip/shoulder throw yes but a shoot while being pushed onto the back foot? Perhaps this can be better explained by someone." Sure. Simply change elevation and go for the double leg. If we expland our definition of "shoot," he will in effect fall into it. If the opponent were interested in sprawling or sidestepping the shooter would need forward momentum, but, as so many have written, the "blaster" is already doing a "50 yard dash" so why does the shooter need to go forward? "If the JCC was being pursued from outside punching range in an attempt to break into the guard then I can see, but with the more fighting attribute of applying the JCC after the guntin has been applied(for example) would not allow the space for a shoot!" This may be our ticket back to FMA, as I'm sure all my grappling stuff is trying Ray's patience. How many guntings have we seen in NHB? Did they lead into blasts? Did they prevent grapplers from closing? It is my feeling that the gunting is a great knife technique, but weak without a weapon. But then again, I also think tigers scratch more effectively than martial artists, so what do I know? Jerry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Bikendova" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:51:40 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: space to shoot "Now, first of all I like to roll. Im an Instructor in the Unified Fighting Arts under Marc McFann and also im a student of Rick Young. Two reknown grapplers. So lets just say I know how to shoot." We might begin by differentiating between reknown grapplers and reknown grappling instructors--there is a difference. "However this has got me thinking here. The fwd pressure of an attack from the JCC would be forcing me backwards that I find it hard to see the shoot, a hip/shoulder throw yes but a shoot while being pushed onto the back foot? Perhaps this can be better explained by someone." Sure. Simply change elevation and go for the double leg. If we expland our definition of "shoot," he will in effect fall into it. If the opponent were interested in sprawling or sidestepping the shooter would need forward momentum, but, as so many have written, the "blaster" is already doing a "50 yard dash" so why does the shooter need to go forward? "If the JCC was being pursued from outside punching range in an attempt to break into the guard then I can see, but with the more fighting attribute of applying the JCC after the guntin has been applied(for example) would not allow the space for a shoot!" This may be our ticket back to FMA, as I'm sure all my grappling stuff is trying Ray's patience. How many guntings have we seen in NHB? Did they lead into blasts? Did they prevent grapplers from closing? It is my feeling that the gunting is a great knife technique, but weak without a weapon. But then again, I also think tigers scratch more effectively than martial artists, so what do I know? Jerry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: eman eman Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:16:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: re: kamagong sticks Hardwood sticks www.eskrimador.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:05:14 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Sambo is Ukrainian ??? Steve Wrote: > s a combination of jiu jitsu,sambo,catch-as-catch, and muay thai - so both > of the arts you mentioned are in there and being used in nhb all the time - > as far as bjj goes > WRONG !!! Sambo is not Ukrainian SORRY!! As for the rest of your post I won't disagree, Everyone you mentioned is a great fighter and definitely not people to mess with . But I don't think that was my intention. I simply stated that Ukrainian and most Katch hooks are not allowed in NHB., Show me one instance where a nasal hook was used to release the guard. Did you know Ukrainian wrestling is some 1000 years or more older than Sambo. But getting an old Sambo man, the young ones don't even know any better, to admit that many of their tech. were stolen from the Ukrainian's is like trying to get the Japanese to admit much of their stuff is from the Okinawan, or a Nazi to admit much of their engineering was developed by Jewish engineers. So that's enough of that. In Ukrainian Wrestling their are no break falls, my father always said they should break when they fall, if you ever have to go to the ground you messed up. Kind of like the Balintawak theory of, if you have to block more than once you screwed up. Now obviously it doesn't always work out that way. KNow for the BIG names, obviously you have read some web pages and read some articles and keep up on things. But remember there were far more men out there they just didn't write books or never turned to professional wrestling as a career. Ten years ago all you read about in magazines was Segal, Presas, Inosanto, Norris, and a few others. All of a sudden we have Russian names, Brazilian names, People named after military vehicles, people named after Dogs. Now are we to think that some metamorphoses has taken place in the past ten years. I don't think so, these people or their equivalent have always been their, but unfortunately they never had a media to show case themselves. Now thanks to people like Ray ( a little butt smooching ) and web pages, videos, and NHB some very fine martial artist are finally getting their do. But lets not forget Stan "The Man" Kizwald (sp) Nicoli Rushnovov, Frank " the killer of mortals" Chezwalski (sp) Dick the Bruiser ( before he went big time) A guy my dad called the Neck, I don't know his name, but my dad Died at age 80 and after 6 months of fighting Asbestos cancer he still had a 19in neck, at 5'6", so if he was impressed with this guys neck if must have been impressive. And their were many more old timers who no body will ever know. Mr. Gotch was an awesome Hooker, Thez was good too, but like I said their are a lot more than just the ones mentioned on A&E. I believe Mr. Gotch fought the snake pit, I could be wrong but I don't think Thez ever did. My father lived in England for 3 years and fought their he never mentioned anything about Mr. Thez fighting their at the pit. My dad always mentioned Karl Gotch, this is not to take anything away from Mr. Thez, just some information. Most of what you think is a Katch hold is and isn't. Katch is a lot like JKD in that it is the perfect art cause it isn't an art its more of a... way. If it works you use it if it don't you lose it. So would a Katch fighter use the guard? Yes.. would he side mount yes. How would he break the guard and why wouldn't most hookers use it against someone of their equal? Because the counter would probably be a nasal hook or a wind pipe rip, my father had a unique way of training for this. He would get a piece of log that was just a little too big for his hand and too heavy and then practice picking it up and squeezing it with his thumb an first two fingers, so that when you built a good enough grip the thumb could rip into the wind pipe like it was one of the long round hunks of ham you see in the deli. But keep in mind many a hooker or shooter wound up crippled because their hooks or Submissions were far more violent than anything they allow in NHB today. And in Ukrainian Wrestling which was always meant for combat and very difficult to train in every move was concentrated on to break and not lock or hold. Silly me I forgot Farmer Burns probably the greatest wrestler of all time. And Leo Pasiukovich (Pasiuk ) my grandfather, but he never had a chance to fight anything as easy as a NHB fight. His fights were usually to the death, because he was a Military prisoner in a concentration camp in the Russia, and that's what the Russian soldiers would make them do for entertainment. Fortunately my Grandfather was 6'3" or 4 and weight about 310 lbs with very little body fat and a Ukraine Master Wrestler, so he was able to get the extra pieces of bread for his wife when he won. Of course by the time he got to America he was not a pleasant man to be around. And believe me in a second he would show you the difference between Russian and Ukrainian fighting. Rocky ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:14:01 -0500 Subject: eskrima: More SB > The fwd pressure of an attack from the JCC would be forcing > me backwards that I find it hard to see the shoot, a hip/shoulder throw yes > but a shoot while being pushed onto the back foot? > This is exactly why I like a leg hook and drop!! ANd I agree with Doc if SB is done properly it is like any good tech much harder to defend against. And your opponent drops in front of you. Ever notice the the SB in theory is basically what any good bar room brawler will do to you, pummel the crap out of you before you know what's happening....HHHMMMM ------------------------------ From: Ed Lam Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:38:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Straight blast Hello, More questions on the topic. Doesn't the fact that one hand is moving out while the other is moving back in towards you mean that there isn't an hand to cover your head during the straight blast? Doesn't that leave your head open for an angle off jab or over head head right? Thanks again. Ed ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:50:42 -0800 Subject: eskrima: shooting JCC Pat, I know a little of Marc's backround and experiences with Guro Dan. Ask him to show you how to cut and scoop past the JCC (as if you are cupping the back of the opponant tricept in kali but not really it starts kinda cimunde 4 if you know Pak Herman's terminology) then shoot to a variety of drops/drags/circular throws/single legs/driving shin takedowns etc. Or stifle in the plume with followup and drop in for a double leg. Realize being pushed back is not the real problem. It is the person who does JCC correctly to you and drops you where you stand after a good HIA and bridge. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. - ----- Original > Now, first of all I like to roll. Im an Instructor in the Unified Fighting > Arts under Marc McFann and also im a student of Rick Young. Two reknown > grapplers. So lets just say I know how to shoot. However this has got me > thinking here. The fwd pressure of an attack from the JCC would be forcing > me backwards that I find it hard to see the shoot, a hip/shoulder throw yes > but a shoot while being pushed onto the back foot? Perhaps this can be > better explained by someone. If the JCC was being pursued from outside > punching range in an attempt to break into the guard then I can see, but > with the more fighting attribute of applying the JCC after the guntin has > been applied(for example) would not allow the space for a shoot ------------------------------ From: GregMcFerr@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:18:43 EST Subject: eskrima: bad eye Eric asked; >>.. My question is this. In the event of an attack, would it be wiser to put the right eye (reduced visibility) closest to the attacker?<< Now am sure everyone has his or her own option on this and why and am sure they are all good, so here is mine. I would try to keep the GOOD eye far enough outside as to avoid a cross or a hook, I would do all I could to protect the good eye. any hit to the good eye and you might find yourself with no good eyes. figure if one is bad and you get hit in it (didn't see it coming) your still were you were when you started. better to have poor eye sigth then to be blind. Just my option. And Ray how come my post on the SB got cut in half? anything I did in sending or was it just that bad? Greg ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 06:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #78 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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