From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #95 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 24 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 095 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #94 eskrima: Self Defense & the Gun Issue Re: eskrima: Question for the LEO's eskrima: Re: Legal Implications of Carrying Impact Weapons eskrima: Lesson of the day eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #93 [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jester@pop.jdweb.com Date: Thu, 24 Feb 100 20:18:18 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #94 Eric Primm wrote: <<>> States vary in their "defense of others" laws as much as their self defense ones. Often you may use the same force continuum as you would use if YOU were the "attackee", with the same "reasonable man" measuring stick. Sometimes, though, there are differences. One might be if weapons were involved. In one state, you would be held to the reasonable man standard as the situation IS, not as it SEEMS. That is, someone threatens your life with a gun and you draw & shoot, killing him (bear with me, here...). The gun turns out to be fake. Self defense is still plausible, because it seemed to you that you were in mortal danger. Were you shooting to defend someone else, this wouldn't hold; the reality is there was NO mortal danger from the gun. I forget which state this was. Pardon me if this was the list that ran this thread and I'm being redundant; I think it was PMAA or tactics-l. Also, my example probably has mucho holes; I'm merely pointing out that defense of others is often riskier legally than for the self. jester ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:32:39 GMT Subject: eskrima: Self Defense & the Gun Issue pauloki@hotmail.com, wrote: >Ken Grubb of Bellevue, WA said: > > >I'm the LAST person who would ever shoot someone to protect my life.> > >Well, I hope that never has to get tested, but what is the difference >between having to shoot someone in self defense and using any other tool in >self defense when it comes to the issue of commitment? > > Legallity aside, how can any FMAer - practicing an art that keys in on >adapting to the environment - say that with one weapon you would be >committed to defending yourself but with another you wouldn't. In the >moment, under the stress of a self defense situation (or someone in my >family in the same peril), I would hope that I wouldn't hesitate to use >what >ever I had on hand - even if it were a gun that the attacker dropped and I >got to it if I wasn't carrying one - which I don't on a normal basis. >Personal weapon, or weaponless, preference aside, we train in an art of >versitility. Would you hesitate to use your car as a self defense tool, if >it were your best option? What other tools has anyone theorized about the >ways of using as a self defense tool? Could not agree with you more Paul. The goal of self defense training is to teach/learn skills that will keep you alive and healthy. In the critical moments when someone is attempting to signicantly hurt you or end your life all together, only a fool would put pride ahead of expedience! Take whatever tools are at your disposal and bring the conflict to a swift and definate conclusion. Your honor code may preclude you from murdering another person and the world would be a better place if more people would live by that code, but you must end a confrontation as quickly as possible and that takes a gun, then so be it! Ernie ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:08:13 -0800 Subject: Re: eskrima: Question for the LEO's "Eric Primm" writes: >A friend of mine told me a story. He was at a party where three men were >rolling dice to see who they would fight. When the person, who was half >passed out from drinking, was chosen, the group threw a pillow case over the >guys head and started beating him with a bat. If the person who was zipped wasn't a willing party to this it sounds more like an assassination than a fight. >My question is: Can I physically knock those guys off of the poor soul they >accosted or do I have to try to get their attention? My purpose being to >try to keep them from killing the man. How can I help that man without >putting myself in legal trouble? This question arises because an old >instructor of mine said that if we hit a man to try and get him off the >person he was attacking, we could be charged as attacking the attacker. Any >input? What the law says and what happens once you get into the clutches of the legal system can be two TOTALLY different things. Every time I've looked at a state's criminal code on justifiable use of force there has been language along the lines of "in defense of oneself or an innocent third party". That isn't to say that the police and prosecutor won't be skeptical when you say "Honest, officer, I wasn't in the fight. I was just trying to break it up." Todd ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:15:39 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Legal Implications of Carrying Impact Weapons A lot depends on how it's presented. If you have a baseball bat in your car along with a pile of American Hammerskins pamphlets you will get the undivided attention of Officer Friendly. But if you have a bat, a ball, a glove, and a pile of empty Coke cans you just haven't gotten around to cleaning out your car since softball season ended. I keep a machete in the car. I also have jumper cables, a bag of kitty litter, road flares, and a folding shovel. That makes me a little over cautious, but it just means that I'm prepared for the rainy season in Oregon. [Before anyone jumps in it ISN'T so that I can tie someone up with the jumper cables, whack him with the machete, and bury him in the woods by the light of the road flares :-) todd ------------------------------ From: Ed Lam Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:11:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Lesson of the day Meghan, I believe Steve and you are saying the same thing, ie, go with the force, don't go against the force if possible. Force is both physical and "mental". My Judo teacher sums the process as "action / reaction". The classical Judo term is "kazuzi" or unbalancing, either physically or mentally. Ed > From: TaoArt@aol.com > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:05:07 EST > Subject: eskrima: > Steve, > > I think you misunderstood the concept I was > discussing... > > The guy who had me in the hold was using two > hands clasped tightly. I could > not escape from either direction. I could not > turn into him because he > simply "rode" my back. So what I used was a > technique that worked against > his mind - not his hold. I pulled in one > particular direction and when he > pulled back to keep me from rolling, I reversed > direction. If he knew what I > was going to do, he could have easily adjusted. > But he was surprised by the > sudden reversal and lost that brief moment to > adjust. > > So the concept was not the basic idea of > turning in the direction that my > opponent has a weakness... it was _creating_ > the weakness by making him > adjust to my action and then reversing the > action before he could readjust. > > Despite my novice level of experience in > grappling, and the way I revel in > learning, I never would be so pompous as to > consider myself a genius. I know > the stuff I am learning has been learned by > others. So what? It's the > process that is the beauty of it. > > Meghan Gardner > Guard Up, Inc. > www.GuardUp.com ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "paul martin" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:25:05 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #93 Kenn, THe impression I got was that you were saying that you wouldn't USE a gun if it was the weapon you had on hand. Obviously, that was a misunderstanding based on your response. I totally agree with the liberal use of discretion and judgement to avoid violence and escape at the primary plan even if violence is used. My instructor is big on 3 to 5 second rules. If you do not train to effectively overwhelm and put your opponent on the defensive by 3-5 seconds, your in a fight. A REAL fight. THe issue of commitment still stands. I think that you have really thought this through. THere is a line that someone would have to cross in order for you to feel that you were justified to use force of any kind. You seem to know how to avoid situations which push you to that line. THat is excellent. I see many people, trained and untrained who don't seem to know where that line is for themselves and get into near violent situations where the only way to get out is to lose face. Then they suffer the ego blow that can undermine their confidence because they feel like a chicken. It isn't because they were afraid (which they were, and I have been too) as much as they didn't understand personal control and wrote a check they weren't ready to cash. Playing chess is a great reminder of this. The guys who will kick your but are the ones who only start to trade pieces on the board when they are ready. They don't as many mistakes because they weigh the cost of every move. Not a bad lesson to translate to training. WHere is your line? Where is that level that you are ready to commit yourself to, and what do you do to avoid getting there all the time? I think this is getting diluted, but I think that you get the point. Let's see what this stirs up. Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:57:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #95 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.