From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #178 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 14 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 178 In this issue: eskrima: Generation of 'Internal Power' eskrima: Power, tai chi and fma eskrima: Teaching eskrima: eyd stuff eskrima: The long and short of it [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Chow Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:21:54 +1000 Subject: eskrima: Generation of 'Internal Power' >While the waist plays a key role in internal styles, it is not the source of >the power. The power in internal styles comes from a strong connection with >the ground through what is commonly refered to as the "ground path" and >through the storing of power within the postures. It is the coordination of >these that allow internal stylists to generate great power with very little >motion. If the chain of power from the ground to the hand is broken, the >power will be greatly reduced. It is only the entire body working in unison >that allows real power to be generated in internal styles. Sir, This new theory is propagated by a practitioner in the West (California?) who has taken it upon himself to have understood the 'Mysteries of the Orient' and therefore qualified to explain it. I say 'new' because it is not the traditional view. Internal Strength is Internal Strength (Nei Gong). It is not identical, nor equivalent to proper body alignment. Proper body alignment is very important for delivering powerful strikes, but powerful strikes also do not equate Internal Strength also! Proper body alignment is known to all good martials ands martial artists, and is not unique at all to Tai Chi, nor Chinese martial arts, less, a select few in California. Call it whatever you want -- 'Ground Path', 'Peng Jing' , whatever. It is still proper body alignment - and not a big deal. By the way, 'Peng Jing' ( a favourite topic expounded by the practitioner I am thinking of, to try to equate Internal Strength to proper body alignment - to explain what he thinks is the mystification of Internal Strength) is not proper body alignment either. The old Chinese masters are very aware of proper body alignment, and had never confused it with Internal Strength, nor 'Peng Jing'. I have spoken and discussed this gross error in modern interpretation with many Chinese practitioners who are quite amused .............at such ignorance........... Proper body alignment, with its ground path energy transmission described is actually called 'Zheng Jing'. :):):) ----> please note. By the way, beware of any masters who try to tell you about any old Chinese masters who demonstrate the ability not to be pushed and claims it is because of his Internal Strength. I have never in my entire life heard any old Chinese master claim this. Only certain people claimed the old Chinese master claimed this because they wanted to politic around and get popular. Ask for proof which masters said it and forward that accusation to the masters, advising to contact their lawyer for a bit of 'discussion'. ------------------------------ From: ptbernd@gmx.de Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 04:58:03 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Power, tai chi and fma > From: DrunkenPanda@aol.com > Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:46:36 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #176 >... > While the waist plays a key role in internal styles, it is not > the source of > the power. The power in internal styles comes from a strong > connection with > the ground through what is commonly refered to as the "ground path" and > through the storing of power within the postures. It is the > coordination of > these that allow internal stylists to generate great power with > very little > motion. If the chain of power from the ground to the hand is broken, the > power will be greatly reduced. It is only the entire body > working in unison > that allows real power to be generated in internal styles. > > In my eskrima practice, I frequently apply the power generation I > learned in > Chen style Taijiquan. As I am accustomed to generating power in > this way, I > can get a lot of "oomph" with almost no effort. I find that Eskrima and > Taijiquan go together very nicely, in terms of flow, sensitivity, > and power > generation. Hi out there! Although being a beginner in TaiChi I would like to give a comment. The TaiChi-Teacher I have learnd from - Manfred Steiner from Germany - made once a comparison, the body - all of his joints are like balls. They always move together. Also, the groundation is important, therefore I would agree with the quotes. The little TaiChi I have trained help me a lot in understanding and improving my Pekiti Tirsia. The foundation was lain when Grandtuhon Gaje always has emphasized the hips and Tuhon Bill McGrath has given the detailed instructions about generating power. But one thing is totally different, the footwork. I am sure that TaiChi has good footwork, too. But, is footwork in FMA is special. How far as I have understood TaiChi one is finding his stability and center and of the opponent, of course. In Pekiti Tirsia because of the weapons one has to move out of the center, otherwise one gets cut or stabed. I would say that in Pekiti Tirsia, perhaps like in other FMA-Systems too, we use those priciples to generate power without getting "fixed" on one place. Like Grandtuhon said once: "...the power is in the tip of the stick, and not in the hips..." The power just comes from there, but does not stay there. Any comments? Bernd Giller, Germany ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Teaching >>I'm going to rip off some of his "clinch" material for my class >>tonight. What do people on the digest think of this? I have got to say that some of my material that I teach is based off of some Pekiti Tirsia and some DB material and some Lameco. I don't teach any "style" or system, just "The Philippine Fighting Arts". I was taught 3 "styles" named after my instructors father and two uncles all lumped into one. I don't take credit for teachi9ng different material that I was not "taught", just show it is effective. I was taught to use it effectively. I know in some eyes it would be "wrong" because by just seeing someone do somthing, you may sometimes miss on the various "meanings" of what was done, but I have an analytical mind and like to work on it if I like it. Also, there is somthing else I'll post when I have time, but I'm in a rush. Looking forward to replies. ===== "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:14:30 +0100 Subject: eskrima: eyd stuff Barry wrote: >So historically speaking espada e daga would be considered "most important" >for combat? How far back in history do you mean (pre-Hispanic, Hispanic, Am. Colonial, Japanese Occ., etc.)? AFAIK (& IMHO), historical evidence for the EyD's combat effectiveness is rather sketchy... >If one could pull off and fight with E&D he would likley be an >excellant all round Filipino Warrior? Depends on how you define "an excellant all round Filipino Warrior?" By "Filipino warrior" do you mean "a Filipino engaged in war (like the soldiers fighting in the Southern Phil. right now)," or a practitioner of Filipino Martial Arts. IMHO, I wouldn't necessarily (nor automatically) refer to a "martial artist," as a "warrior."(Forgive my English, not sure what you're trying to ask.) Mr. STeve Drape wrote: >I wouldn't comment on higher or lower level, because particular systems focus on different things. >Some might introduce EyD earlier than others, etc. > I would suggest, however, that espada y daga (sword and dagger) is not generally taught in most >schools today. Just out of curiosity, can you name one or two that actually do? >Most systems teach olisi y baraw(daga), which is stick and dagger. >These are completely different systems- EyD is a longer range art, where the focus is on the >sword and the dagger is used in a back-up role, or as a means of last resort. Closer perhaps (repeat perhaps) to the European espada y daga... (I have only seen illustrations and movies on this) >If your EyD system uses a lot of dagger techniques while ignoring the sword, or every move closes >in to dagger range, then it is not an EyD system. When you have two+ feet of pointy, sharpened >steel in one hand and up to a foot of pointy, sharpened steel in the other, closing techniques where >the dagger is the focus are uncommon, to say the least. Q to all: : Has anyone out there seen an Arnis style that DOES take advantage of the TIPs of the "espada," using thrusting with the longer of the two almost exclusively? >It is a stick and dagger system that uses these types of techniques. > Stick and dagger is a much closer range art, where the stick is used to prepare the way for the >blade to be used at close quarters. In many styles, the stick is used to tie up or lock the >opponent's two arms/weapons to allow the finishing thrust. Good observation... >It's very difficult to do that with 4 blades occupying the same general space! Also if opponents are not using "espadas" (and "dagas" for that matter) of greatly differing lengths... >Most systems today teach stick and dagger and call it sword and dagger, but what they are >teaching would not be useable for a real sword and dagger encounter. Unfortunately, Arnis nomenclature (and common knowledge) only has "Espada y daga" to mean all techniques that use one long implement with one short implement...only recently have the newer labels been introduced distinguish between "fully bladed" EyD and "stick and dagger"... > Under these conditions then, maybe EyD would be a higher level, just because most systems >don't teach it. tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:26:28 -0700 Subject: eskrima: The long and short of it > >Barry wrote: > > >> Since things are kinda slow here on the ED id like to ask a question. > >> Would espada e daga be considered for lack of a better term "the highest > >> levels" or most important in most Escrima/Kali/Arnis systems. If so why? > > I wouldn't comment on higher or lower level, because particular systems focus on different things. Some might introduce EyD earlier than others, etc. I would suggest, however, that espada y daga (sword and dagger) is not generally taught in most schools today. Most systems teach olisi y baraw(daga), which is stick and dagger. > These are completely different systems- EyD is a longer range art, where the focus is on the sword and the dagger is used in a back-up role, or as a means of last resort. If your EyD system uses a lot of dagger techniques while ignoring the sword, or every move closes in to dagger range, then it is not an EyD system. When you have two+ feet of pointy, sharpened steel in one hand and up to a foot of pointy, sharpened steel in the other, closing techniques where the dagger is the focus are uncommon, to say the least. It is a stick and dagger system that uses these types of techniques. > Stick and dagger is a much closer range art, where the stick is used to prepare the way for the blade to be used at close quarters. In many styles, the stick is used to tie up or lock the opponent's two arms/weapons to allow the finishing thrust. It's very difficult to do that with 4 blades occupying the same general space! Most systems today teach stick and dagger and call it sword and dagger, but what they are teaching would not be useable for a real sword and dagger encounter. > Under these conditions then, maybe EyD would be a higher level, just because most systems don't teach it. > > Steve I agree with Steve's point about the terminological imprecision of EyD being applied to Stick & Daga. I'm often guilty of it myself. I would add that on various occasions Guro Inosanto has said that long & short was the first category in LaCoste, and single the third category and that he now regrets having changed them. Although I suspect I'm well short of a full deck of understanding as to why, off the time of my head what occurs to me is that the left hand is busy from day one. I know how hard I often have to work getting the left hand involved with people whose training is based around single stick. A ways back there was a thread about single vs double and one of the points I made on behalf of double was about changing leads and the importance of developing both sides for reasons of body symmetry to prevent postural problems. Someone rejoined with a what-about-boxing-it-doesn't-change-leads question to which the answer was that in boxing both hands get lots of work. The same applies here too-- in L&S both hands get work. This becomes fully so the longer the short. Guro I points out that the short was often 18-21 inches or so which is much longer than the training knives that most of us use. Combined with a more square posture vis the opponent/training partner, this really makes a difference. Thanks to Doc Fung for drawing my attention to this point. I agree with the value of L&S for empty hand training! Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #178 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.