From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #202 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 28 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 202 In this issue: eskrima: Datu & the quizzes... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #199 eskrima: off topic, dont flame :) eskrima: Re: Good points Arlan/ more Stick lenght eskrima: Right tool for the job Re: eskrima: Digest T-Shirts? eskrima: The long and short of it eskrima: re: Eddie Lastra eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #201 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #199 Size doesn't matter? eskrima: repost [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roan Kalani Grimm Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:07:40 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Datu & the quizzes... Chad-- Yeah, I do remember the quizzes at the elementary. Man, I miss those days. Oh well....darn college!! Heheheh... Aloha, Kalani "We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and he is best is he who is trained in the severest school." - ---Thucydides ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:05:08 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #199 This is a very interesting thread. While I am not Serrada and I am not DogBrothers I have had exposure to the roots of each and use tools of each. I have to agree more with Arlan than Steve under most conditions of civilized play. Also I practice more like DB's so I am biased. My experiance comes from lots of sparring and basically with two equally skilled people the bigger tool wins as long as the tool is the biggest one the winner can properly use. It is true that some believe that having a toothpick betweens one's teeth is "armed" I still prefer a stout stick. Granted I would rather have a rock hard short graphite rod rather than a large diameter long rattan stick but basically when you sparr you find bigger is better. The one qualifying unknown issue is one of gear. I routinely fight with full power and headgear with hand protection ala DBMAI as my roots are Inosanto/bustillo circa '74. However, the game does change when ALL the gear (that includes your cup) is off and you hit full power and with thrusts to the head. Perhaps this is when Steve is right since even the short thin Serrada stick is better than the hair on my head or skin on my knucles. Few who have gone to this extreme to learn have any brain cells to talk about it. Heck few people are even bareknuckle fighting with elbows let alone bringing in tools. Yes there are a bunch of bad NHB TV guys but when you take it to another level I am sure a few leaders in this industry will fall off and retire too. For those who are uninformed there are rules there. If anyone would like to test the theory over multiple opponants routinely and give me the results with a decent sample size I am all ears. Personally I like my head. There is a huge difference between sport and fighting Regards, Carlton H. Fung,D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. > From: Steve Klement > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:16:40 -0400 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Arlan's big stick > > You mean in all your doggy fights you never encountered even one good > Serrada player? > > Let me ask you this =AD in an empty-handed situation and your opponent is > kicking you and he has longer legs than you, are you whipped or do you trap > and move to the inside to use your knees and elbows? You see in the Inayan > style of Eskrima, Serrada is one of our core styles and in it we are taught > to shut down the strikes a lot like the scenario above. BUT another of our > core styles is Inayan Largo Mano in which we utilize a much larger > stick/sword and focus on evasion and reach. Believe me, in capable hands > that weapon IS indeed hard to go against. But the weapon/style is only as > good or bad as the warrior using it. So when you say "I certainly have more > respect for a bigger stick, the shorter the stick, the less concerned I am.= > " > I feel you are forgetting that sticks (big or small) don=B9t kill people =AD > people kill people. :) > I guess what I am trying to say is no one size or style is better than > another and on any given day a small stick could beat out a big stick, or > vice versa, depending on who=B9s hands they are in> ------------------------------ From: "Eric Van Skike" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:27:00 PDT Subject: eskrima: off topic, dont flame :) I'm severly debating moving out to the denver/ft. collins area of colorado early next year. I was wondering if anyone on this list is in that area and is involved in the Information Technology/Information Systems area and would not mind talking to me off list, about the job market, what skills seem to be in desire etc. I've been researching online but its not always the best source of accurate information. :) Also Id obviously need a new dojo to. :) Thanks for your time. Eric Van Skike vanskike@ods.ods.net ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 23:37:18 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Good points Arlan/ more Stick lenght Good points Arlan. Being a Largo Manoist I know this facts. If I have an even one or two inches longer than my opponent weapon I will take advantage of that length. Imagine six inches, You need to be fast to close the gap inside to protect yourself to my six inches length advantage. Yes, I do also believed Shorter stick can do the job, what the longer stick can do. It is just need a techniques adjustments such as footwork's, body angling, etc. Try Sparring to someone with a short stick and you used longer stick, then switch so you can experience the disadvantage and advantages. I used to do this to my student I used shorter stick maybe 24 to 26 inches and my student has 30 inches stick. Based on he Garimot Largo Mano system I used to measured the range by stick so I always give my student a stick and half distance to make sure I am not inside of his danger zone. Weather I am using short or long stick this is applicable. Well, based on body angle and weapon position I know when to strike that I wont make a waste movements, timing is crucial on this play. If your not sure to your strike don't waste energy wait to the right time, that make your stick work effective. So far on my experience I never get heat on my head and body using this theory. We go all out more than you can ever think, open target everything. No padded even the stick. This is how I think, weather you have a long or short stick as long you know how to handle them properly, that is your advantage. So keep training to your preferable weapon length. enjoy your training, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation << I think the key point in the stick length post was that all other things equal, a longer stick will dominate because of reach and leverage. A better fighter is a better fighter, whatever length. I haven't fought anyone with a short stick and fighters at the gatherings are free to use any length they want. When it comes down to it, nobody wants to be the guy with the short stick. I carry a 20" stick in my car, heavy, but easy to get out from under the seat. Would I like to carry a bigger one? Of course, but it doesn't work in the car. I know some people are more comfortable with a short stick, and that's great. But for me, if I have six inches reach on the other guy, I'll make him pay. The point was brought up about longer legs and arms, yes it makes a difference, notice that reach is one of the bits of info given about fighters. Arlan ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:48:37 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Right tool for the job Ok guys, the Rock has to put his 2 cents in here. Cause hey!!! I can. It seems that all this big stick little stick stuff that's been going on always seems to forget one thing, that's the situation at hand. While I tend to believe the best fighter will almost always win. I also believe that if the fighters are fairly even, then I think the one that uses the right tool at the right time and in the right situation has the better chance. Kind of like sex if your using a little single shot dilinger, when the job calls for a colt python, you could end up in a world of hurt ( both emotionally and physically depending on the lady :-) For example in the basement of my school where a few of my students and I have trained in the past, the 8 ft x 8 ft room and 7 ft ceilings make it rough to use a big stick. Gee kind of like the footwork thingy I was talking about a few months ago. In the Philippines, they have these things called jungles, Now lets all put on our thinking caps here!!! What do you think would work better in those tight cramped quarters the big mama jama walking tall Alabama brain slammers, or the more compact sleek easy to swing Angel Cabalas specials. Now in an arena where one can run with the wind and spin, twirl, thrust, and have a good old time it may ( but not necessarily always ) be good to have a big stick so you may more easily reach out and touch your fellow Eskrimador. Its like the BJJ stuff . Yes its fantastic stuff and everyone needs to know the grappling aspect of the MA's. But if you bring your on the back get in the old guard mentality down to Billy Jo Jim Bob's heel stomp'n geetar pick'n tobacco chomp'n honky tonk ( yeah you know the place where everyone's family tree goes straight up and if you have more than 3 teeth you're considered a town elder) well you may just find someone dancing a little Texas 2 step on the back of your favorite head while you're doing your best Royce imitation. Again right tool for the right job/time/place. Now this may some what contradict what I just said, but what drew me to Balintawak the most was its ability to fight using a large stick in a very close quarters method, utilizing body positioning and mechanics over large movement footwork, which seems to be some what unique to Anciong's Balintawak ( but doesn't necessarily mean it has an advantage over any of the other methods). Another way of looking at this whole thing is, I was just telling a student of mine tonight, that if I had to fight for real and knew I was going into a one on one prearranged fight I would prefer my hard wood stick. But in my car I usually carry a medium weight Rattan 31 in. My main reason is I like to have a weapon that if it gets away from me some how and is used on me, if the guy doesn't' know what he is doing and I have to take a few licks from him I may be able to catch them on the arms weather the storm and get back in the game. But if you have a hard/heavey wood weapon it don't take a skilled person to break bones with a swing. Now this philosophy would work extremely well with a small or short stick because in an un skilled hand it becomes far less threatening. Rocky "All I ask for is a strong stick, and the balls to use it" ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:36:41 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Digest T-Shirts? > What became of the notion of T-shirts for the digest? It seemed there was > interest. Yep, I must admit that I've done next to nothing on that... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Steve Klement Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:31:39 -0400 Subject: eskrima: The long and short of it Mr. Sanford, Let me start out by addressing your counterpoint about longer legs and arms... I was speaking in terms of a real streetfight (the reason I mentioned kicks). You ask me to "notice that reach is one of the bits of info given about fighters". BOXERS yes. The reason reach does count quite a bit in boxing is because of the very thing that makes what I do (Eskrima) and what boxers do different: BLOCKING METHOD. In boxing you have excellent footwork to help you evade and corner your opponent but other than that your absorbing the blows. In Eskrima you have a bigger attack arsenal just by the nature of not having to play by rules of a game AND you have BLOCKS - the reason reach is almost nullified. The attack is so very important but if you can't block my strike than it's nothing more than caveman style and hopefully your head is harder than my stick/sword. You say that if you "have six inches reach on the other guy, I'll make him pay." All I can say to that is I'll gladly give you twelve but it won't help. For the weapon to hurt me it has to hit me and to hit me it has to be in my blocking range. I don't care if it's the end, middle or base of your stick, as soon as I block it I will get the same result. Now if all things being equal mean neither my opponent nor I do any blocks then by all means I will meet him in the circle and he can have a long stick if he wants but by gosh I will have a staff. Blocking and closing the gap is what makes some styles such as Serrada possible to win against the longer weapons. You say "When it comes down to it, nobody wants to be the guy with the short stick." Well, if they ask, you can tell em' I do! Thanks! - -- Steve Klement (865) 988-7599 Inayan School of Eskrima - TN. inayan@mindspring.com www.shoponthenet.com/Inayan > From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:37:53 -0700 (PDT) > To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #201 > > From: "arlan and angel sanford" > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:33:01 -0600 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #199 > > I think the key point in the stick length post was that all other things > equal, a longer stick will dominate because of reach and leverage. A better > fighter is a better fighter, whatever length. I haven't fought anyone with a > short stick and fighters at the gatherings are free to use any length they > want. When it comes down to it, nobody wants to be the guy with the short > stick. I carry a 20" stick in my car, heavy, but easy to get out from under > the seat. Would I like to carry a bigger one? Of course, but it doesn't work > in the car. I know some people are more comfortable with a short stick, and > that's great. But for me, if I have six inches reach on the other guy, I'll > make him pay. The point was brought up about longer legs and arms, yes it > makes a difference, notice that reach is one of the bits of info given about > fighters. > > Arlan ------------------------------ From: "C. Herrman" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:26:18 -0400 Subject: eskrima: re: Eddie Lastra From: i-said-so@webtv.net >I am searching for an old instructor of mine. His name is Eddie Lastra... Guro Eddie Lastra has a website at: http://www.lastra-arnis.8m.com I imagine you can contact him through the site. Good Luck! Chris H. "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age." - Obi Wan Kenobi - ------------------------------ From: "Steven C. Drape" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 05:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #201 > But for me, if I have six inches reach on the other guy, I'll >make him pay. The point was brought up about longer legs and arms, yes it >makes a difference, notice that reach is one of the bits of info given about >fighters. I think fighting full-contact really points up this fact. About ten years ago, we had a group in Fla. that fought full-contact, same as the Dog Brothers, though we didn't have the business sense to tape any of our sessions!! :-) One of the guys was about 6'3" while I am only 5'7". Originally, because he was an aikido player, I provided the sticks for him to use, which were of the length that I prefer, 27-28". We fought regularly over a period of time and it always seemed that I could hit him easier than he could hit me. We put it down to experience in eskrima, but actually, at least some of it was the length of the sticks. One day he showed up with his own sticks, and they were about 32" long. I didn't pay attention until I had been smacked several times from a range that I had always been comfortable in before. While I believe that a good fighter should be able to adapt to any length of weapon, the previous example points out the fact that you might get roughed up before you have time to adjust, if you haven't been working with differing lengths already. Since then, I always add some larga mano in with my close-range work, just to keep people honest. Steve ____________________________________________ Service Brought To You By http://WWW.DWP.NET ------------------------------ From: "Gary A. Hudgins" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:51:39 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #199 Size doesn't matter? eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: Steve Klement > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:16:40 -0400 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Arlan's big stick > > I guess what I am trying to say is no one size or style is better than > another and on any given day a small stick could beat out a big stick, or > vice versa, depending on who=B9s hands they are in. > > Thanks! > I do not disagree the the statement above, but there is a myth that is going around. SIZE does not matter!. ;-) A myth that we have heard for so many years both in personal relationships and in the martial arts. Years ago when no one had heard of karate and judo was the only widely practiced martial art (okay some of you would disagree that judo is a martial art) every body said size does not matter because you use the other persons, weight /strength against them. Yeah Yeah. Why is it that most of the participants in no hold barred events could pass for Mack Trucks. Because they are the guys that are winning. Size, strength, weight do matter. Why do they have weight classes in judo? Why do they have weight classes in boxing? Wrestling? Now you do have problems when you start asking what is the optimal size. If you are seven foot tall, and your girl friend is only 4'9" inches tall, size might be a problem. I agree that one length may be more optimal at one distance than another. One length of stick is better in the serrada system because you are in so close. Largo Mano needs a longer length. What is the optimal length for you??? Before I get blasted because of the training of the man is the thing issue, I have a 1 1/2" pocket knife on my desk. On the mantle over the fireplace I have a katana. They are equi- distance away and you have to grab something to defend yourself. (okay the pocket knife is open and the sword is unsheathed -- just to get out of the way that discussion about opening time vs. drawing of the sword time). Really, which would you pick up to use? (I can already feel the heat of the blasts I am about to get) I also know that their are differences in peoples skills, techniques, abilities etc. and I am not saying size is everything (On a personal note, thank God, size is not everything). It is just an extremely important factor and in most instances, a longer weapon would be my choice, but environment might also be a factor. I would not choose the katana inside a phone booth. Gary H. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 7:10:50 PDT Subject: eskrima: repost This post from Lahong Guro Steve Klement was truncated for some reason. Here it is again in the untruncated version. Ray - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Richard - You asked what I thought at first was a very straight forward easy to answer question and then I started thinking :) Your question, Did the Inayan Largo Mano style come from Angel (GM Cabales) and the Serrada system? Well, my first answer is, no. It developed out of Suro's understanding of the basic concepts of a great Largo Mano system that Suro was exposed to about 20 years ago or so. Suro took that knowledge of the basic concepts and for the next 5 or 10 years developed the Inayan Largo Mano style. My second answer to your question is, a little. The reason I say this is because of the obvious influence Serrada had on developing the Inayan Largo Mano. Suro wanted the Inayan Largo Mano style to be complete in a way that it could beat (in the right hands) a Serrada player. By pushing the Serrada in us that much further he knew that our Serrada would only become that much stronger for knowing first hand how to deal with the long weapon. And so it's a learning circle. That is why the Inayan System of Eskrima works so well. It does so by teaching us that no one style is necessarily better than another and that we can use one to strengthen another. By learning more of a style that you may not even like you can better your understanding of it and therefore all its possible weaknesses which makes your more favored style that much more powerful. I would also like to add that Kim Satterfield's last post was a very good summary of Inayan Eskrima as well! You also asked how GM Cabales dealt with or against an opponent with a larger weapon. You are exactly right, he would close. There is a story that Suro has told his students of an event that happened once at GM Cabales school... it goes something like this.... One time a SCA (he used a BIG stick) player came into GM Cabales school to challenge anyone to spar with him. GM said 'I will take care of it' and started sparring with the visitor. When the man struck at GM Cabales he blocked and then struck at the mans head, when the man blocked with his shield GM Cabales then struck at the mans knee he then pulled the shield open with the butt of his weapon and flip hit the man. He then said 'your done, you are dead'. All this happened while Angel was smoking a cigarette - he never lost his ash. Hope this all helps! Steve Klement (865) 988-7599 Inayan School of Eskrima - TN. inayan@mindspring.com www.shoponthenet.com/Inay > From: "Richard Killick" > Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:51:01 +0100 > Subject: eskrima: Serrada questions > Steve, > Did the Largo style in the Ianyan style of Eskrima come from Angel and the > Serrada system? When I met Suro Mike, I think he told me he got it > elsewhere, my memory may be failing me here. > If it did not come from Angel, how did Angel deal with Largo Mano range? Did > he just close people down and get inside them. If my under standing is > correct here, a Serrada person would not want to stay at long range but > would move in? Does Serrada have anti grappling techniques to deal with > people who like to stick grapple? Sorry for all the questions. > Regards > Richard Killick ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #202 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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