From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #206 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 29 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 206 In this issue: eskrima: Mans got to know his limitations eskrima: Prove to yourself eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #204 eskrima: Have you ever seen Serrada?? eskrima: Re: sundry eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #204 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 eskrima: Questionns at close range. eskrima: Seminar eskrima: Re: a little more about stick length eskrima: Re: Well Done Rey Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 Re: eskrima: Prove to yourself eskrima: Grandmaster Cacoy's 2000 seminar schedule ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:45:55 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Mans got to know his limitations Ray wrote: > Have you seen how someone really does react when their eyeball is down on > their cheek? They do not retaliate with a new level of force, the fight is > over and they are looking for their mommy or at least the nearest emergency > room. > Most true Ray (usually ) and just to make one more point WHAT the HELL are you street fighting for ( Iam assuming this is what the gentleman was talking about ) if you are not prepared to go all out. And Jerry mentions that I and others have pointed out the limitations of DBM and BJJ. I never said such a thing. In fact its just the opposite, its the ignorance of the player that leads to limitations. You use your BJJ or your DBM when its appropriate and something else when its appropriate, of course since DBM is many things this statement is not completely true, so to clarify, I would imagine a DBM man would use his grappling skills when he new this would dominate or his kung Fu stuff if that were appropriate, or he might just get the hell out of Dodge if that's what were appropriate. If he doesn't do what is appropriate it doesn't necessarily show the limitations of the art but more so his limitations as a martial artist. Which brings me to another point. IF all you do is BJJ or Eskrima IMHO this does not make you a martial artist, it makes you a stylist. A Martial Artist is one who studies the ARTS of combat. Rocky ------------------------------ From: Rocky Pasiwk Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:10:43 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Prove to yourself Since Marc and Arlan haven't been so blunt as to say the following I will. Marc goes out of his way every year to put on his gathering thing out in California, Where he and his fellow Psycho Mutts can go beat them selves silly. My understanding is its all good clean fun and as fair as it possibly can be and free. So load up the family and head to Hermosia...Beach that is, sun shine, movie stars and stick fighters...... Take your preferred stick size and give it a shot, who knows you may find shorter is better or longer is better, or maybe some where in between. Or maybe it may be better just not to fight. Every person is going to have their preference, Who knows you may be the next Angle Cabalis. ANd just to throw a little gas on the fire, How come no one has said anything about density of the stick, ( do I have to do all the thinking :-)this is why Ray loves me so much ) I have seen many of the JKD people here in Michigan ( and I am not picking on all JKD people ) but around here they use these super thin and light weight sticks, that really piss you off when they hit you. SO if a man with a Big long twig meets a man with a short hard wood now who's going to win ........Well!!!!! If I were a betting man, and Benny the bookie knows I am I would still put my 2 bits on the better fighter who is not bound by limitations, call me silly, but that's my opinion, which is always right ;-) Right! Ray!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:17:52 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 One interesting note on the Krabi-Krabong, while we use long sticks,36" or so, we choke up on the handle 8" when doing the double sword (dha). Those that have seen the dha know what I mean, there is a lot of handle sticking out past the hand, used to block and attack. This leaves about 26" to 28" of what would be blade. I consider that a short amount of weapon, but it seems to work well with the double stick. Also a lot of what I learned in Lameco was using a bigger stick in close with power. I've seen Serrada drills and some of the drills Punong Guro Edgar did were just as close with a much longer stick. Arlan ------------------------------ From: nakmuay@eden.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:21:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #204 Hello to all... I've been lurking for a couple of years and finally decided to post. Does anyone know where wooden krabi-krabong swords could be had? Thanks Abhijit Khirwadkar ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:16:36 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Have you ever seen Serrada?? Jerry writes: For the above reasons, Serrada would tend not to work in an environment where it seems the intelligent fighters want to be either at the end of a 30" stick or on the ground. The fraction of a second it would take to pass through the range the Serrada player hoped to maintain would seldom be enough to end a fight against an agressive and well-trained opponent. My reply: Speaking from a scientific standpoint it would take less than the diameter of the incoming weapon to block it. I originally came from a longer weapon is better camp (Kendo), so I have a little knowledge of long versus short. The one BIG problem that I ever saw with using a big stick is that once that range is closed you are powerless. You have nothing, nada, zip. The initial block and counter is the crucial part to survive an attack from a longer weapon. When that block is made, one step inside the range of the longer weapon increases the odds of victory or survival exponentially. Now the real point is are we playing around all padded up with love-taps or are we really going at it? Sure, if everyone is all wrapped up in charmin then both parties are going to get a strike in. However if both parties are using really hard sticks or blades then I'll put my money on the guy who can end the fight quickly (the one that can close in :) Serrada= to close. Coincidence? Thank you, The Timex of Eskrima...takes a licking and keeps on wit-ticking!! Patrick N. Christian Inayan School of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN www.shoponthenet.com/Inayan ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Bikendova" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:20:44 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: sundry "As an FMA, remember that Serrada is a blade art. I personally take FMA to learn how to use a blade. Angel was first and foremost a blade man. Angel quickly demoed to the SCA guy that in a real fight, a blade fight, he had just put him out of commission. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com" I am with you here Ray, and I apologize if I didn't make that clear. But I was responding spefically to a stick thread. "Ummm, not so sure. At least not to someone that has been hit in the face before." This will finally be a case by case, person by person scenario. But I think it is fair to say that having been hit in the face before (who hasn't?) and having your head pinned to the concrete/asphalt/dirt with no place to go and punches literally raining down on you are qualitatively different. We are not talking about a situation where you can roll with the punches, use evasive footwork, etc. It is cover your head or have it pounded. "Have you seen how someone really does react when their eyeball is down on their cheek? They do not retaliate with a new level of force, the fight is over and they are looking for their mommy or at least the nearest emergency room. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com" I have no doubt that having an eyeball popped out would end many fights--although haven't we had on this very list stories of stabbings that went largely unnoticed until after the altercation, or shopping trip as the case may be? And does this not detract from your own explanation of the Angel Cabales "one cut=death" story? And what of all the great Moro stories about taking multiple gun shots only to lop off a few heads before deciding to "lose?" I see a lack of consistency here. Furthermore, and much more important to my original post, I have my doubts about the ease with which an eye can be removed. If, as you wrote, it wound up "down on their cheek" the fight might very well end, but is it as easy as Steven Segal makes it look? Any doctors out there? Jerry - ------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:14:53 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #204 In a message dated 4/28/00 7:32:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Freud would have a field day with us.) >> LOL...good point, Eric...I was wondering when someone would catch on to the deeper meaning of this last thread...;-). Kim ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:24:27 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 In a message dated 4/29/00 8:16:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << For the above reasons, Serrada would tend not to work in an environment where it seems the intelligent fighters want to be either at the end of a 30" stick or on the ground. The fraction of a second it would take to pass through the range the Serrada player hoped to maintain would seldom be enough to end a fight against an agressive and well-trained opponent. Jerry _ >> Sorry, Jerry, been there, done that (for real), and you're dead wrong. Looks like Steve may have stung you a bit (why, I don't know, his posts didn't appear offensive to me), and you were trying to even the score a bit, but I've been in too many fights where no one was coming to our defense, heck, we were the backup called to quell the situation, where the range was dictated by the several guys attacking us. As for the intelligent fighter wanting to be on the ground, try that against several guys who are going to kick your brains out while you are trying to lock up one of their compadres. Theorize all you want, but I've been there when the stuff hit the fan, and hit it hard. Yep, the range does get close up real fast, and grappling occurs almost instantaneously, so why not practice in that range to begin with? Kim ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S." Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:01:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 Salty, I agree with you and the big stick thing, except you are not "fighting" unless 1)there is no gear and 2) each has malice toward the other. These facts alone may change the mix of your experience vs. reality. What those who are in the know tell us is very important (who ever they are). Our experience confirms them. It is dangerous to draw conclusions anecdotally about real fighting. There are huge variables like is this an ambush are there friends etc.... I know you can call a boxing match a "fight" but there are rules and a ref.. In DB gatherings there are rules, not really a ref per say, and everyone is friends at the end of the day. I have never seen a DB competator ever hit another participant full on in the head when the headgear came off. It is a sence of fairness and honor lack of desire to put someone in the hospital. While I am not DB... I get the impression that DB is a place to experience and accelerate personal growth and understanding of yourself and your position in the arts, which is consistent with mutual instructors that Crafty and I have had in the past. Overall I think you are right also from my persoanl experience and instructors. Some others (no insult intended) need to spar more (****with all types of practitioneers****) and confirm or reject the schooling they have had. Some others just have not had the exposure to other "masters" each with his own method that worked for him. One person mentioned the "jungle" and why Serrada makes sence. Well maybe. A Largo Master that has personally lectured me on the misuse of his tools as he has explained his mehtods in detail as he has skewered a few Japanese in the jungle during the war. So there is one unsubstantiatd story on the other end of the debate. > From: "arlan and angel sanford" > I've based my > thoughts on stick length on my personal preference based on several hundred > fights Ray it is extremely hard to thumb a guy's eye when you are on the bottom. You will just piss the guy off and he will keep you grounded and pound you. If you know a way you can do this I'd like to hear about it. Early in my anti BJJ quest we tried just about all the variants and even tried to learn the Pak Herman's rikasan effectively but could not really learn it liek he could to it. In fact some of your attacks actually help the BJJ guy suck you in deaper and you are like a fly to a spider. So if you can't beat them join them. In a few short BJJ lessons you can learn why this just does not work. It is alot eaiser to defend against BJJ/groundwork with BJJ/groundwork and use other arts when the proper opertunity arises. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. > Have you seen how someone really does react when their eyeball is down on > their cheek? They do not retaliate with a new level of force, the fight is > over and they are looking for their mommy or at least the nearest emergency > room ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:28:22 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Questionns at close range. Moving on from the extra 10 inches thread, I have some further questions for the "Serrada players" and other people on the list who seek Medio/corto range to get the job done. I will use myself as an example. I fight "DB style" every Thursday night with the fencing mask etc and we film each fight to review our performance later. Every quarter I look at my progress overall and decide on which areas of my game I want to work on or that I feel I am lacking skills in. Having viewed the last years fights on tape with corto skills in mind, with at least four fights per Thursday night, I realise that I am "ok" in Snaky stick, Stick squared and Largo range. I hit people a lot off Largo range as I bomb passed medio range but I basically go straight to standing grappling and then to ground grappling. I do not do anything in corto range apart from the occasional (very) punch or long thai knee. One reason is that my students who have been with me for about a year like to get me in to grappling range. So a whole part of my/their game is missing but before I shoot off to learn close range fighting, how many people on the list have dropped people at close range with a stick hit, other than a punio. The way we are fighting in my class at the moment because we lack high level corto skills, the range seems to disappear very quickly. Especially at we do a lot of what my students and I call the "Eric (Top Dog) Knaus three step charge" in my class to avoid what we call an "Eric special" (a back hand horizontal shot off an umbrella to the head). Do you guys (Ray, Steve etc) find you get "bumped" in to the standing grapple a lot. How do you keep the stick grappling monsters at bay? Hand check? I do not want to hang out in this range unless I can get an advantage over every one else. To be fair I have never sparred with a Serrada player or a corto specialist. My other question is does anybody fight at close range with two sticks, I have never been able to do it. Please let me know your thoughts. Regards Richard Killick. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:46:09 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Seminar For those of you in the UK who are thinking about going to Crafty Dogs seminar, as someone who went to last years one which was excellent, I would encourage you to call Krishna and book your place. I have just got the poster for this years seminar and its going to be a great one. You will genuinely see an improvement in your skills/understanding of stick fighting and FMA after the seminar. Best of all are the small tips which make all the difference. See you there, I am the tall good looking one with poor corto skills! Richard Killick "Sorry for the last minute notice, but the next meeting of my DBMA class at the Machado BJJ school in Torrance will be in mid-June. There's the Gathering next week, the European tour etc. Cindy promises to have the details on the seminar up on our website's seminar page anyday now. Briefly, it is May 20-21 for Krishna Godhania, (in Birmingham I think,) May 27-28 in Alicante, Spain for Alfonso Acosta Gil, and June 3-4 somewhere near Dusseldorf, Germany for Alfred Plath." ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:10:03 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: a little more about stick length Hi all, OK, here's a twist on the "stick length" thread we haven't addressed yet, and may clear up some misunderstandings on the subject. When we talk about stick length in Serrada, we are actually referring to the role the alive hand will play in that particular range, with the specific length of weapon being utilized. For example, in our Larga Mano, the alive hand has no real place. In Serrada range, the alive hand is crucial, providing the necessary "support" that makes Serrada work. This is even more evident in Kadena De Mano, our empty hand and dagger system. The closer we get, the more important the alive hand becomes in controlling the action. The alive hand is the back-up, if you will, that allows the shorter weapon, be it a stick, knife, pocket stick, whatever, to maneuver in such proximity, and serves to protect us in that range. Needless to say, sensitivity of the alive hand must be developed to a high degree to get away with this. Any thoughts? Kim ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:36:12 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Well Done Rey Rey, well done on this post. I think you cover the real deal for us to think oabout in training. Gat Puno Abon << For those that are more into sport, this is probably true. Football players don't usually try to play using the rules of basketball. But as martial artists we don't play by rules. We should train to be able to use our TKD to defeat an Eskrimador. We should train to use our Eskrima to defeat a Taekwondoin. We should train to use our Larga style to defeat Serrada man. And we should train to use our Serrada to defeat an Largo man. We explore all the variations. We do not just play the sport of Serrada against Serrada or Dequerdas against Dequerdas or Larga against Larga or rasslin against rasslin. One style is not the King and neither is one fighter (except maybe on one particular day). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:16:52 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #205 > Ray it is extremely hard to thumb a guy's eye when you are on the bottom. > You will just piss the guy off and he will keep you grounded and pound you. > If you know a way you can do this I'd like to hear about it. Early in my > anti BJJ quest we tried just about all the variants and even tried to learn > the Pak Herman's rikasan effectively but could not really learn it liek he > could to it. In fact some of your attacks actually help the BJJ guy suck > you in deaper and you are like a fly to a spider. So if you can't beat them > join them. In a few short BJJ lessons you can learn why this just does not > work. It is alot eaiser to defend against BJJ/groundwork with > BJJ/groundwork and use other arts when the proper opertunity arises. Grappling was my very first art. And I agree that everyone that hasn't spent a few months or years rolling on the mat should immediately go out and begin that journey. wrt fingers in eyes, well perhaps it is easier for me because I have rather long arms. Yes, by reaching for the head I am opening myself up for a variety of submissions. But if we're really fighting I can't really get you any more angry at me, right. We're in combat, we're in a life/death/maim situation. Perhap I only remove the ability for them to see out of one eye for several mintues/hours. But I'd rather be in combat with a person that can only see out of one eye, even if they aren't interested in running off to their mommy right then... :) My original point was simply in reaction to the escalation point. IMHO when I'm in a fight I'm already in condition red (or black, depending on the color code you use), and I cannot go any higher. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:26:18 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Prove to yourself > If I were a betting man, and Benny the bookie knows I am I would still > put my 2 bits on the better fighter who is not bound by limitations, > call me silly, but that's my opinion, which is always right ;-) Right! > Ray!! wright Rok. I love you, guy... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Grandmaster Cacoy's 2000 seminar schedule Grandmaster Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete's 2000 Seminar Schedule Date Location Contact Phone - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- April 20 Daly City, California Glen Tenud 650-992-9937 May 6 Fairfield, Calif Dave Amiccuci 707-425-1154 May 13 Venice, Calif Vatche Bartimian 818-996-7180 May 20 Denver, Colorado Mark Smith 303-522-5934 May 27 Albany, Calif Andre Khoury 510-527-2400 June 10 Seattle, Washington Ron Tepac 253-848-6577 June 11 Portland, Oregon Al Dacascos 503-292-5273 June 16/17 Los Angeles, Calif Richard Bustillo 310-787-7893 June 24 Lafayette, Indiana Walt Hartwhich 765-477-7096 July 15 New York, New York Don Edwards eskrima@hotmail.com ?? July 16 Boston, Mass Bobbe Giorano 281 Belmont St. July 22 Morganville, New Jersey Jerry Fatjo 732-970-0065 July 28 San Jose, Calif Rupert Bisquera 408-719-8649 Open Dates: June 3, July 8 ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #206 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.