From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #225 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 9 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 225 In this issue: eskrima: Weapons laws in Italy eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #224 eskrima: Can't we all just get along...?!?! Subject: eskrima: titles [none] [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pnn Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 22:46:40 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Weapons laws in Italy A question about Italy... What kinds of weapon laws are there in Italy? I will be traveling there soon and don't want to ruffle any feathers. Thanks, Paul ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 19:51:43 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #224 "Mark Harrell" writes: > I just thought that I would mention that the title > of "Professor" is used in different martial arts > styles and generally means: Senior Teacher. > > For example: > Professor Wally Jay (Jujitsu), > Professor Willy Cahill (Judo), > Professor Allen Magdangal (Villabrille Kali), > Professor Ron Hellman (Villabrille Kali), > Professor Mario Magdangal (Villabrille Kali), > Professor Jerry Pongasi (Villabrille Kali), > The late Professor Vee (Vee Arnis Jujitsu), > Professor Salem Assli(Savate), > Professor A. Emperado (Kajukenbo), etc, etc... > > I think that within the martial arts the title of > Professor carries a different meaning than that of > the Academic world. Well, yes and no. The historical reason that senior martial artists started calling themselves "Professors" is because of Judo. Kano Jigoro, the founder of Judo was called Professor because he really was one. He was a highly ranked employee of the Japanese Ministry of Education who founded Universities, developed curriculum, and many other important things as Japan modernized. Like many other aspects of Judo like the colored belts, the gi, and the kyu/dan system the title "Professor" was adopted by other martial artists whose first exposure to martial arts was through Judo. Eventually the original significance was forgotten and it passed into folklore and habit like cutting the tips off the chicken legs. A note to Rocky: Being a PhD has a very specific meaning. To be one you have to have attended an accredited institution of higher learning, taken a certain amount of advanced coursework, and contributed original research to your chosen field of learning. It doesn't mean what you want it to anymore than saying a Guro is a large piece of chocolate cake. You can say it, but it's not a very useful thing to do. Says nothing about your intelligence, earning potential or anything else. It just means that you have fulfilled a certain set of formal requirements satisfactorily. Calling yourself a Professor or Doctor or Professional Engineer or Sir mean something exact and verifiable. It's kind of ridiculous to use that title if you aren't one. Even if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and important and you can kick serious booty. Todd ------------------------------ From: Roan Kalani Grimm Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 23:00:37 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Can't we all just get along...?!?! Ray, thanks for killing the title thing. Crafty, your "titles" response was hilarious. Bob Manalo, whoa big fella, no need to get rabid. And has anyone else seen "Gladiator"? I thought it was a fantastic movie. Really enjoyed the fight scenes as well. Aloha, Roan "We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best is he who is trained in the severest school." - --Thucydides ------------------------------ From: WEE Shin Hoe Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:03:55 +0800 Subject: Subject: eskrima: titles Dear All, First of all, my knowledge in silat or eskrima is rudimentary. And I do not know enough of the gentlemen mentioned on this list to comment on your martial art expertise. However, after lurking on this list for over a year. I just have to get it off my chest on the "creative" use of titles for some martial artists. I do not mean to offend anybody but this is something that I just have to let it out. I am a Malaysian and understand both Malay and Indonesian language & custom. I've met a lot of silat masters, the abilities of some of them can only be described as unbelievable. Funny thing is, to my knowledge, none of them claimed to be Maha Guro. They were simply refer to themselves as Guros and sometime we added the word "Tok" or "Pak" in front of the guro to show our respect. The only time they use the word maha (mighty) is when refering to their teacher or founder of their styles, most of the case posthumously. In our culture, it is definitely very rude and disrespectful to call yourself a Maha Guro when the current head of the style or your teacher is still alive, not to mention countless duels that you might have to fight to defend your title. Maybe this has something to do with humility being a key virtue in our culture. We simply do not declare ourself as Maha Guro, you have to earn it. The Maha Guro can only be given to you from your peers or other guros only after you have managed to impress them of your much more superior martial skills (more duels?). Even then, you still refer to yourself directly as Guro only (humility is the key). Come to think of it, it seems that all the greatest martial artists of our time such as Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Funakoshi or O'sensei had never call themselves Grand Masters. They simply address themself as Sifu/Sensei (Teacher). Only in USA you'll find more Supreme Grandmastes, Ultimate Professors in any given martial art then anywhere else in the world. As an old Malay saying goes, "The half-filled bottles make the most noise". - -- Regards, WEE Shin Hoe Malaysia Email : shinhoe@pc.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:48:10 +0800 Subject: [none] >Luis, in response to your "translation", you have just directly >disrespected the Illustrisimo lineage and authority as witnessed by >Grandmaster Mena. Since you made an inquiry about something you know >nothing about in this public forum, you are held accountable for your >actions by Grandmaster Mena of Arnis de Abaniko, Maha Guro Ibrahim of >Silat from the Tausug region, as well as Maha Guro Nasir of Silat from >the Tausug region. They were the ones who witnessed Tatang >Illustrisimo recognizing the skills of Maha Guro Uddin. The title is >in Hiligaynon, not Tagalog, and there are well over 5 million people >in the Philippines, primarily in the Iloilo region, that speak >Hiligaynon. If you take the title to mean "high teacher fifth", then >why is this title recognized in Malaysia and Indonesia also? Do you >think it means "high teacher fifth" over there? > >> >Bob Manalo, Jr. >Advanced Guro >IESA > Hi Bob, My last post was done in haste, mixing what were thoughts on translations, titles and personal perceptions into one paragraph which should have been divided into several to avoid one reading into another. This may have caused confusion as to what was refering to what. Let me state that I have never met Maha Guro Uddin, and as such cannot have any opinions based on his knowledge or ability. My translation which dealt DIRECTLY with him (Maha Guro Panglima) was one which dealt directly with the specific words of a title, and the potential meanings of such. I have done so in the past in this digest, and considering the dialect base I have at my disposal (400+ employees from northern Luzon to southern Mindanao) and my tendency to double and triple check meanings, what I place may not be all-encompassing but it WILL be accurate. Due to my family owned businesses and holdings, I can safely say that I have traveled through the Philippines more so than most. Though I claim no expertise, I have a greater working knowledge of regional nuances than many who DO claim such expertise. So as far as this, I will stick to what I have said. I see absolutely nothing in "High Teacher Fifth", which is derogatory in any way or form. Where ever the term may be used, that is the literal translation I got when I looked into it, even from people who BARELY speak tagalog.(Quite a few of them are from Iloilo) If it means something else in Malaysia and Indonesia, I wouldn't know because I've never been there and have no access to thier language. I do not acknowledge any accountability and authority to Masters Mena, Ibrahim, and Nasir, esteemed as they may be. I've only met one casually, and have never even seen the others. With regards to what opinion Tatang may have had, that was his opinion which I have no knowledge of, therefore cannot comment on. For that matter, with regards to Ilustrisimo, I only recognize the authority of Romeo Macapagal as my immediate teacher and Tony Diego as the head of the system, despite the fact that Tatang had other senior students whom I know of as extremely capable. Note that I mentioned "authority" and NOT "accountability", as I never speak on behalf of Ilustrisimo, only myself.I don't think that whatever extreme doubts I may have on titles would offend my Ilustrisimo lineage in any way. Neither have my questions regarding instructorship background been seen as offensive. When I first met and trained with the Ilustrisimo people (about eight years ago) I questioned everything, they simply answered and demonstrated. Been with them ever since. With regards to certain angsts I may have regarding names, we have to admit that our Arts have many who make claims they cannot substantiate. To those with a more knowledgable FMA background, blow it off. To those uninitiated in the Arts, well, be prepared to shell out alot of dough and possibly die if you ever find yourself in a situation where your life depends on your skills. It's that simple. How often do we see legitimately competent instructors end up in a game of up-manship due to neccesity, when quacks steal the limelight with wild claims of grandeur? If the teacher has the answers anyway, why fear the questions? Rocky is right when he says that the bottom line is what counts, but how many newcomers know where that line is? Hence the cynic. In this regard Maha Guro literally means "High Teacher", nothing wrong with that. How is that different from the more widely used Mataas na Guro? Not at all. Now there is the question of the Phd.,Phd in what? And what relevance is it to the FMA? I don't think there is a school that gives out Martial Arts Doctorates, is so, then I stand corrected. If the Phd. is in something else, fine, but differentiate. I mentioned self promoted, self aggrandizing quacks, if the rank came from a legitimate school, then it was obviously not what I was talking about. Though I DO disagree with certain titles from certain legitimate schools used by certain teachers who insist upon it. As far as respect to other styles go, people who know me say I am TOO respectful at times. Just last weekend I was a guest of honor at a government function, where I had to tolerate twenty minutes of the most god-awful martial arts exhibition I have ever had the misfortune to watch. When it was over, the teacher who called himself "Master" came over to the Presidential table to introduce himself to us, I just smiled, shook his hand, and kept my comments to myself. I have no problems airing my views face to face, but I see no need to get into an arguement with anybody over something which won't affect my life in any way or form. Worse yet, would be a situation where I'd have to accept a challenge due to a face to face confrontation with some of these "trying hards" (we have alot of them out here) and end up having to justify the results to police. Right now I'd rather spend my free time on my yacht or at my beach house. Regarding my background, I have briefly commented on it in this digest on occassion but see no need to expound in detail as those who I want to know, know. Briefly, with 18+ years of formal training in the FMA and 20+ years of formal training in the MA (I won't even talk about the informal years as that would be pushing it back a little too much) I can say I have a "working knowledge" regarding SOME of what is what. I feel no need to teach as I see teaching as a major responsibility, which I am not willing to assume, I prefer being a student. So when I do say something, I do have an idea of what is going on, certainly not the last word, but food for thought anyway. Regards. LPIII ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #225 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.