From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #242 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 15 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 242 In this issue: eskrima: Ad hominey what? Okay save a seat in the bunker! eskrima: Savate Book eskrima: Gun Control eskrima: I know its YOUR list but - time gentelmen, time please eskrima: Guns in America eskrima: Gunning down Germany... eskrima: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #241 eskrima: Massad Ayoob eskrima: Suro Mike Inay tour eskrima: Re: Fingernails, cats etc Re: eskrima: Gun Control Re: eskrima: Ad hominey what? Okay save a seat in the bunker! Re: eskrima: Massad Ayoob [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: M Salazar Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Ad hominey what? Okay save a seat in the bunker! Ad hominey what? You use big words again! Me no understand dat! Just joking of course, but seriously, re-guns Marc, with all due respect the best protection any home owner would ever have to protecting their home is a dog. This you must certainly agree is true! I will do my best, non-lawyerly way to address some of the points that came up, so please bear with my jumping around and hope that you can see that I will try to make my points in a non-antagonistic way (this being the Internet every word seems to sound harsher). Re-using guns for self defense. Liquor store owners (and I know my fair share, snare drum please) by the way all have guns but does that protect them from being crime victims. Neither does it prevent other gang members from shooting similarly armed gang members on a basis that's almost as if they could care less about the fact that they're opposing some heavy firepower. Let's put that myth about more guns negating other guns to bed now. In between shooting each other, they're hitting alot of innocent people too. Second, my point was that the problem here isn't an attack on the Second Amendment, which I find disturbing since every time I bring this up with other gun owners I get shouted down, but what the hell its SUnday night and I'm bored so here it goes: a failure of gun owners to mend fences with the greatest victims of gun-related crimes and to work with people to build solutions that makes everyone happy. Instead I see the NRA using racist code words to distance themselves and to hide behind 200 year old speeches about liberty by guys who owned slaves for chrissakes and thought it was OK to slaughter Native people for their land. Sorry I look at the Founding Fathers in a different way than maybe some do, but I regard them human beings as fallibe (and yes I am a bad Catholic because of this) and not godlike in their intuition about the future state of affairs. And yes, thirdly, I think it is a middle class conceit b/c since when was the last time any of you (including me) ever had to defend ourselves with a firearm and saved your family a la Stephen "I'm a fat slob" Seagal? I suspect an investment in good running shoes, common sense, calm reasoning, and a quick tag with your fist or leg did more to end a problem than that beautiful steel blue pistol you caress, lovingly assembled, with the custom handle that even I adore from a distance and I know will never, ever be there when I need it (like a supermodel I'm thinking of right now). That is a fantasy that belongs to Old Westerns. Guns are fun! (To me at least.) And that's it. (More below.) Finally I am disturbed by this code talk of armed resistance to the USA. I have told my wife before (yep she's a witness) that I am willing to go to jail if I think its policies have done wrong (say Vietnam) for my beliefs, but I will never point my gun at a LEO because quite frankly, I love my adoptive country and won't hide behind a gun (of which I have many to hide myself with) and a crackpot ideology about Nazi Amerika when there are a thousand better ways to solve political problems instead of hiding out and waiting for the end-time with my cache of guns. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:43:23 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Savate Book From: "Kenneth M. Louis, M.D." I have ordered the savate book by Salem Assli as advertized in this digest. As of today not only have I not received the book, but have had no respnoses to e-mails, regular mail, nor even a voice mail to Mr. Assli's residence. The original order form insisted on only a money order as payment, so I have no other way to trace the order. I am curious if anyone else has had a similar problem with their order, as well as if anyone may know of a way to contact Mr. Assli regarding this matter. I had the cheque cashed but as such still have not received anything. I do still have faith though. I don't really have an option. pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group Web site * www.amag.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Ludwig Schwarz Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:51:33 +0200 (MEST) Subject: eskrima: Gun Control > But why is that? What study can you quote that has shown that you have > lower > crime (-IF- you do, that is) because of fewer guns? Please show me one. Ray, normally I enyou your writings, even your opinion on gun control, but I think this time you are really wrong. a) There was a big study in Colombia. Here is an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association that sums it all up very well: http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v283n9/full/jed00006.html And it's not a single one. If you would have searched throug archives of public health and epidemiology instead through written propaganda from weapon manufaturers, you would have found much more in the same vein. There are LOTS of studies showing that with greater gun control there is a greater safety! b) Yes, "propaganda from weapons manufacturers" was an intended term. There is an economic side to this discussion also. If you forbid weapons, on the short run you are taking them away from the good guys while the bad guys still will have them. But ON THE LONG RUN there will be less weapons factories (because they can't sell them), less shops from which to steal them, less distributors, and in the whole much less availability of firearms even for the bad guys. If no shop or factory is near, you have to import weapons, i.e. smuggle them over the border, which is a task only big organizations can manage. That's why only terrorist organizations (IRA etc.) are armed with firearms in Europe, while the common mugger is much more likely to show you a knife. And there is a big advantage in being mugged with a knife: Knifes are more controllable, so you are more likely to only get cut instead of getting shot dead, you can run away, you can disarm the attacker, etc. etc. etc. c) All this "defend yourself with a gun" ist crap. Firearms are OFFENSIVE weapons. Unless with a stick or sword, you CANNOT BLOCK an incoming attack with a gun. That means, if firearms are brought into play, you are going to get shot regardless if you carry a gun or not. So the only way to reduce chances of getting shot is to reduce the amount of guns in the population. d) To Crafty: My sympathies for your family, but I don't think it would have changed anything if the Jews had weapons. The Nazis would have come with BIGGER weapons and done them anyway. That's exactly what happened in Warsaw. That is also what happens in most ditatorial governed countries. As you all said: The fist thing an dictator does, is TAKE AWAY the weapons from the citizens. So they had them, and they got taken away ;-). Since so many of you brought the Nazis in the play, let's do a little thought experiment: Let's suppose in your country a totalitarian government arises and start collecting your weapons. A squadron of soldiers comes to your home and demands your weapons. If your answer is in the vein of "they will have to take it from my cold, dead fingers", they simply shoot you, TAKE it away from the cold dead fingers, and go on to the next house. End of scenario. You are dead and you still have a dictator. ;-) IMHO the only way to prevent such things to happen again is encouraging civil disobedience against an wrong government, since the soldiers coming are likely to be also citizens, and should not obey the orders in such cases. This was the way most colonial governments were finished, and this was also the way the Phillippines got rid of Ferdinand Marcos. And here ist the turn back to the Phillippines and their Martial Arts ;-) Ludwig from Germany. - -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:17:29 +0100 Subject: eskrima: I know its YOUR list but - time gentelmen, time please My heart sank when I saw the comments on the million mum march. Ray, we have a great list here with some great contributions and I for one am extremely grateful for the time and effort put in by you. I have grown to understand that the issue is something that is of great concern to you and other listers and I understand that in Europe at least we do have a different viewpoint. There are issues though relevant to those of us in europe which we have never discussed because they take away from what the list is about. There are limits to what you accept as free speech and may I take you all back to what was discussed with the Jeff Stickman excommunication. There have been times when I could have replied on list to certain mails and made an issue but I took a responsible decision not to as the list wasn't a battle ground for my political opinions. What I have now seen is the regurgitation of last years gun debate on the list which is not a gun debate list. While this might be an emotive issue for many of you I think it has its place elsewhere. CAN WE STOP IT NOW PLEASE. I personally think that some of the comments made in posts about this have done the list no good. Some of the comments have been rather unfortunate. If you want this list to be the international advert for FMA which it is then we have to act with a bit more dignity than has been done over the weekend. Its my opinion respects pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group Web site * www.amag.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:55:11 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Guns in America eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > And in the meanwhile children shoot themselves because they have access to > weapons they can´t handle. I have read, that in the same time, when in whole > Europe die about 500 people by shootings, in America die about 9000. > Isn´t it worth thinking about the victims and how to prevent so many killings > instead of only insisting on the "right" that causes them? The armament of citizens has long legal tradition in America. The tradition of America is to allow an individual tools of lethal force when that individual deems them necessary. Many other legal implements of death and destruction exist: automobiles, obesity, alcohol. Deaths from guns make the papers because guns go "BOOM." All of the aforementioned lifestyle choices exist in other countries and kill many people. Guns are simply another cause of death in America. The real question is not "Do guns kill?" but "Does the presence or absence of guns result in fewer deaths in America?" Try to avoid hypnotization by news headlines. Suicide by gun makes for more interesting reading than suicide by 2000 McDonald's Supersize BigMac Meal #1's. Why do we need martial arts that teach the art of killing with weapons? America provides an environment in which it's easier to answer that question. How would a German justify the study of these killing arts? ------------------------------ From: Ingo Bojak Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:40:31 +0200 (DFT) Subject: eskrima: Gunning down Germany... Seriously folks, just stop it, please? Discussions about guns are useless, simply since most people _believe_ almost religiously in either allowing or forbidding them. The simple fact is that stable democracies exist with and without guns for everybody - and I'm not talking about 50 _very_ peaceful years in Germany, but about France, England, etc. Furthermore you will find evidence for a higher or lower crime rate depending on where you look. Germany beats the US _easily_ concerning crime rate, but Switzerland is even better than Germany. And I'm certain that you can argue until your tongue falls off what evidence within the US suggests or not. (As expected, the US people on this list are mainly pro-gun. I assume an anti-gun guy from the US has his own set of standard statistics to cite.) Furthermore the Nazi card should not be played. Sorry, but I don't think most people using it here know the German (including German Jewish!) mentality, in particular not the mentality back then. Very little would have changed if everybody had guns. The Nazis, quite in contrast to the Communists in East-Germany later, controlled the undemocratically minded, nationalistic, racist and _rule-obeying_ majority from _within_. With guns, some Jewish people would have been shot by their neighbours instead of going to concentration camps. That's about it. The German Jews could have easily staged "guerilla warfare" against the Nazis to an extent that would have stopped the government from functioning, irrespective of any weapon laws. They had the numbers, they had the money, they had the connections - they could have had the guns, illegally but easily. But apart from in Nazi minds there was no unified Jewish community and furthermore most of them were really not all that different from their Christian neighbours, most of them were quite "German". In particular they also _obeyed_ the government until it was too late. But anyway, why are Americans so eager to explore German history? My guess is that it is so much easier to discuss the idiotic things _other_ people did. The American _Civil_ War didn't happen in Europe and I'm certain you can find interesting points there w.r.t. private gun ownership. We in Europe look at Yugoslavia to get an idea about how peaceful a highly armed modern society _has_ to be. Not very, it seems. Actually most European weapon laws have a history of bloodshed behind them. If you go to Tuscany, you can still find the privately owned "war towers" that were built right within the cities, because the families were slaughtering each other for centuries and needed a place to run to. People should just stop pretending that it is _obvious_ whether guns are good or not. It isn't. If you can get that in your mind, you can accept that other people take other choices. Ciao, Ingo - --- Shit happens - wear boots. ------------------------------ From: p.taylor@talk21.com Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:50:58 BST Subject: eskrima: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #241 As a Brit I don't like to comment on US gun issues, however when people start using the UK model as an example for and against gun control I tend to pipe up. Citing the IRA as a failure of UK gun legislation is a bit puerile. The IRA is the most sophisticated terrorist organisation on the planet, they virtually invented modern urban terrorism. They have developed capabilities and networks over decades and in the past been able to call on the national resources of friendly state sponsors to arm them. Such organisations are hardly comparable to your average generic bad guy and can't be held as reasonable analogy. Crime in the UK has been dropping steadily for the last six years, last year saw a rise due to a new method of reporting crime which involved adding new categories, using the old methods crime is still dropping. Firearm offences for the last five years have remained stable and the average number of people killed with firearms each year is about 30. People holding legally held handguns in the UK were in the vast minority, hence the ownership or non-ownership of a firearms didn't really go through the average burglars mind. I always think that comparing different countries and cultures on issues like this doesn't prove a case either way. Paul - -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 03:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Massad Ayoob Massad Ayoob is supposed to be coming to Hawaii in June. I was wondering if anyone here has met him and can give a brief description of the man. Thanks in advance. ===== "Draw me not without reason, sheath me not without honor" Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:36:09 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Suro Mike Inay tour > From: Eskrimador@aol.com > Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:06:17 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Hello All > > I would also like to extend thanks to Dieter and Bea Knüttel for their hospitality and > friendship. It was a pleasure to have you here and we are looking forward to have you next year again. Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions E-Mail: dk@abanico.de Internet: http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative Internet: http://www.modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Thomas" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:17:52 -0230 Subject: eskrima: Re: Fingernails, cats etc >Scratching, clawing, and such work well for 600 pound tigers with razor >sharp claws. For us maybe not as effective. >There was talk of putting an eye out more effectively with a thumbnail as >well. My thoughts (even if you disagree with the above): If someone had a >thumbnail, knife, pencil, anything pointed into my eye, I would do > >everything possible to turn my head the inch or so it would take to prevent >this from happening. If that same someone had such total control of the >situation that he could prevent me from moving my entire body--including my >head--even inches, then he probably didn't need to escalate force any >further and would go to jail for doing so. On the other hand, if it is a >real life or death scrap with a lot of action, the chances of poking >someones eye out with anything are slim and none. Either scenario blows a >big hole in the theory >Jerry As a girl and a cat-owner, I have to disagree :) I would not rely only on sharp nails, anymore than I would rely only on a lead leg kick, or disarms from an angle #1. However, as a tool in my toolbox, it is very effective in certain contexts. First choice in conflict is to run away; however, if it comes down to fighting, I will go at it "tooth & nail". I'll bite, scratch, grab, twist, tear, kick, elbow etc. Nails are not just for eyes, you know. Ask anyone who's been accidentally clawed in training, or by a spouse... It's true that for *killing* the jaws and big pointy teeth are a cat's primary tool; however, if you have ever been seriously clawed by a scared cat trying to get out of your arms, you will not discount the distraction/pain value of a good set of sharp claws. Anything that makes your opponent stop for a second (even to "turn my head the inch or so it would take to prevent this from happening") gives one more second in which to escape or counterattack. Don't discount it. :)jocelyne Roaring Girl * Purveyor Of Fine Books * Beater Of Bodhrans * Smiter Of The Wicked * * Owned By Angus, Most Elegant And Pleasing Of Cats * ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 7:33:19 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Gun Control > I think this time you are really wrong. > > a) There was a big study in Colombia. Here is an article in the Journal of > the American Medical Association that sums it all up very well: > > http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v283n9/full/jed00006.html > > And it's not a single one. If you would have searched throug archives of > public health and epidemiology instead through written propaganda from weapon > manufaturers, you would have found much more in the same vein. There are > LOTS of studies showing that with greater gun control there is a greater > safety! Plesae read those studies, -then- read Lott et al. Again, folks. Take the time to inform yourself on this topic. It is an important one, regardless of the country in which you live. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 7:38:48 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Ad hominey what? Okay save a seat in the bunker! > Re-using guns for self defense. Liquor store owners > (and I know my fair share, snare drum please) by the > way all have guns but does that protect them from > being crime victims. Neither does it prevent other > gang members from shooting similarly armed gang > members on a basis that's almost as if they could care > less about the fact that they're opposing some heavy > firepower. And the above is somehow similar to a homeowner's situation? Think about it just a little more. > b/c since when was the last time any of you > (including me) ever had to defend ourselves with a > firearm and saved your family... I have, I know others that have. Don't you? Ask around. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 7:40:47 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Massad Ayoob > Massad Ayoob is supposed to be coming to Hawaii in June. I was > wondering if anyone here has met him and can give a brief description > of the man. Thanks in advance. What he looks like? An Arab, short dark hair, sometimes a mustache, about 5'7" or so, thin, perhaps 140 lbs, often wears jeans, very deep voice. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #242 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.