From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #257 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 19 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 257 In this issue: eskrima: Guru Baet's post eskrima: Seminar gig eskrima: Re- Barry's post eskrima: Modern Arnis + Remy - Ernesto eskrima: Reply to V7#56: Remy or Ernesto Re: eskrima: Seminar gig [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rocpas@ameritech.net Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:24:22 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Guru Baet's post Guru Baet, as they say Whoop their it is. > > I hear the same stories to someone else.. I love Ama(Father) Remy that how I > called him to me he still one of my mentor. But I cannnot believed what is > happening in his arts. God bless him hopefully you guys controll this on > happenings. its dis- grading the art of Arnis in General. > > I am sorry I have to voice this out its been a long time I keep it in my > chest. I am not saying you Modern Arnis Instructor out there are all bogus, I > believed some are. Its hard to know who is who also in Modern Arnis. I bet > you a lot of you dont know who Remy Presas higher ranking student in the > Ph This is exactically what I was talking about!!! Which is why I must due what I have chosen to do. Remy is a great guy, we have had lots of good times together. But I cannot allow myself to get distracted by the political crap. So I hope wish nothing but good things for Remy, but I have to do what I have to do. Rocky ------------------------------ From: rocpas@ameritech.net Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:51:47 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Seminar gig Sorry Ray looks like I struck a nerve again!!! > Martial arts > masters were making a living doing seminar gigs back in the 19th and early > 20th century. Yes forgive me you are right again, I member those guys know, ah yeah, their names were........ah yeah that's who they were.....A yeah him to.... Look Ray I know you don't have much respect for him, but lets compare things here, back when Funogashi (sp) and Oyamo (sp) and people way further back were doing their thing. Most where giving seminars in their art to people in their art, ( built in students) Remy gave seminars in his art to people from all forms of arts, and opened doors for so many others. DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER, I AM NOT PICKING ON ANYONE HERE, I CAN ALREADY SEE SOME OF YOU GUYS ITCH"N TO START CRAP. Remy has made the seminar as much a part of Martial arts as funny looking pajamas, good or bad. People not in FMA but in other MA's know of Remy, can the same be said for GM Cabalis, GM Gaji, GM illistrumma (sp) GM Buot ect... for the most part I don't think so. Hell you might as well be talking about GM Moe Gm Larry, GM Curly, as far as most non FMA'ers are concerned. And Dare I say Guru I's popularity originally came in the form Bruce Lee's death. Technique talent and ability wise these are all great men. But Remy is the Bill Gates of FMA, he may not have the best art, depending upon what you are looking for, his business practices maybe less that admirable ( depending on what angle you are looking at) but nonetheless he is with out a doubt CEO of the largest FMA group in the world, and is the King of the Seminar stuff. Hell he is so busy he is actually giving seminars during the week now!! If it makes you feel better how about if I re phrase it. " Gm Presas re- invented the seminar" does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Picky Picky Picky, If its not my spelling, its my grammar, or my choice of phrases, sorry dad!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: rocpas@ameritech.net Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:59:40 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re- Barry's post Barry Wrote: > With all due respect to Remy from what ive heard it was his brother > "Ernesto"who actually was the force behind the "early days" of Presas Arnis > and created the original large following in the Fillipines.Then had to give > it up (had it over to Remy)after certain political problems he(Ernesto)had Remy is the older brother and was already on his own when Ernesto was just a kid. Also I agree with you it would be nice to see them get together Rocky ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:37:47 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis + Remy - Ernesto > From: GatPuno@aol.com > Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:47:42 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis/Remy Presas > I am sorry I have to voice this out its been a long time I keep it in my chest. I > am not saying you Modern Arnis Instructor out there are all bogus, I believed some > are. Its hard to know who is who also in Modern Arnis. I bet you a lot of you dont > know who Remy Presas higher ranking student in the Philippines prior of his > journey in the US? > Gumagalang ng Lubos/with high respect, > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimaw Buno Federation Hi, I cannot speak for somebody else, but just for information, I myself am in the FAM since 22 years (1978) and in Modern Arnis since 17 years (1983). I have trained more than half a year in the Philippines, whith the core training in Modern Arnis from Ernesto Presas, Roberto Presas, Rodel Dagoog, Chrestino Vasques, Rene Tongson, Willie Madla and Roland Dantes. One of my certificates from the Philippines is signed by Willie Annang, Roland Dantes and Rodel Dagoog. > From: Bladewerks@aol.com > Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:53:36 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Remy or Ernesto Hi Barry, I donīt know who told you this story, but it is wrong, it is exactly the other way round. You are precisely right in all points, but only if you exchange the names. Use Remy for Ernesto and Ernesto for Remy. I always listen interested, when historical facts about Serrada, Pekiti Tirsia or the Inosanto blend are written about in the ED, because I donīt know much about it. But I do know about Modern Arnis, especially when it comes to Ernesto. I have bee with Ernesto for about 10 years (starting in August 1983), I trained with him in the Philippines and was at his house. It was me who introduced and invited him to Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, I organized these tours and accompanied him there, so I do know him and I know what I am talking about. > With all due respect to Remy from what ive heard it was his brother "Ernesto" who > actually was the force behind the "early days" of Presas Arnis and created the > original large following in the Fillipines. True is, that Modern Arnis was founded by Remy Presas in 1957. Ernesto was born 20th of May 1945. So he was 12 years, when Modern Arnis was founded. Not an age to found a style and create a large following. Remy was 21 and had already travelled through the Philippines for 6 years to learn from many different Masters (for example Rodolfo Moncal, Timoteo Marranga, Venancio Bacon). If you as Ernesto about his teachers (and I did) he told me: his father. No one else. Remy tells, that Ernest learned Arnis from Roberto, the third of the 3 Presas brothers. I was not there so I donīt know, I just give you the answers that I got from both. Remy opened his Arnis school in Negros and then 1969 he went to Manila and teach Arnis to the students (who became sports-teacher throughout the Pilippines) of different universities in Manila. On March 19th 1974, in the resolution No 388, the council of the City of Iloilo/Philippines recognized Mr. Remy A. Presas as the Person responsible for reviving the ancient Filipino Martial Art of Arnis. In 1974 he wrote his first Modern Arnis book, which was the official school book for Arnis. It was reprint in the Philippines in April 1975, July 1975, August 1978, December 1980 and September 1993. It was reprinted in the US in April 1997 (ISBN: 0-9657796-0-2). It is available in the US and you can read about the history of Modern Arnis in this book. > Then had to give it up (had it over to Remy) after certain political problems he > (Ernesto) had with the then government of the Phillipines. (They were going to > kill him) Remy made certain changes and continued to do his own thing with the > art. It is true but the other way round. Remy was threatened out of political reasons and had to leave the Philippines, so Ernest took over, made the changes and continued from there. You can control it: Who is still living in the Philippines: Ernesto. Who left the Philippines, lives in the US since 1975 and spreading his Modern Arnis there and around the world: Remy > Don't misunderstand me i have great respect for Remy's skill and knowleadge(he is > awesome when he wants to be, and could likely kill any 3 arnisadors on the ED in > Stick/Knife/Sword if he chose) but Id also like his brother Ernesto's > contribution to the art also brought to light. Certain things (I know what, but this is nothing to be discussed in a public forum like the Eskrima Digest and I donīt want to go into detail) happened between the brothers, that Ernesto did to Remy, that Remy could not forgive Ernesto. Thats why there is hardly any contact between Remy and Ernesto. And for what happened, I canīt blaim him for that. The story that Barry tells (and I am sure he has heared it exaxtly the same way as he wrote it to the digest) it trying to take the credit for founding Modern Arnis away from Remy and give it to Ernesto. This is not right. I wonder, who started to tell this version of the early days of Modern Arnis. I know my next statement is my personal point of view and might not be liked by some people, but it is told out of my 17 years of Modern Arnis experience with Ernesto and Remy Presas: Concernig their skill and knowledge: I have had quite intensive private training with Ernesto in the Philippines and in Germany and I have seen him training with his top instructors in the Philippines. But from what I have seen from Remy in the last 6 years, Remy has by far more depth in the art. Only one example (there are many more): Remy is left handed. He has so many left to right techniques in addition to the right to right techniques. > Id like also to see the both of them to settle their differences and come together > and pool their abilities.(Now that would be something to > see)! > Barry I am not sure what we would see there, but I agree, it would be interesting to watch. > Note: Ernesto and Remy were not on speaking terms the last i heard. This is correct. No disrespect to Ernesto, but exept for the chapter "Concerning skill and knowledge", which shows my personal opinion out of my training with both, I tried to stick with the facts and they are the way I described them. (Usually I donīt use my title to sign off, but this time I do) Datu Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions E-Mail: dk@abanico.de Internet: http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative Internet: http://www.modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: Alex France Date: 19 May 2000 11:41:12 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Reply to V7#56: Remy or Ernesto >>From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:53:36 EDT Subject: eskrima: Remy or Ernesto With all due respect to Remy from what ive heard it was his brother "Ernesto"who actually was the force behind the "early days" of Presas Arnis and created the original large following in the Fillipines.Then had to give it up (had it over to Remy)after certain political problems he(Ernesto)had with the then government of the Phillipines.(They were going to kill him)Remy made certain changes and continued to do his own thing with the art Don't misunderstand me i have great respect for Remy's skill and knowleadge(he is awesome when he wants to be, and could likely kill any 3 arnisadors on the ED in Stick/Knife/Sword if he chose) but Id also like his brother Ernesto's contribution to the art also brought to light. Id like also to see the both of them to settle their differences and come together and pool their abilities.(Now that would be something to see!!!) Barry Note: Ernesto and Remy were not on speaking terms the last i heard. << I might as well share with with Eskrima Digest members a 2/28/2000 memo I had originally e-mailed only to members of the International Philippine Martial Arts Federation. I hope it shows that both Remy and Ernesto are Grandmasters in their own right and that despite their differences, a deep brotherly love exists between the two: All -- Questions from Guro Russ Blonski, IPMAF Secretary for Canada, and my response: >>Is the final accepted name change for Grandmaster E. Presas "Kombatan"?<< Yes. It encompasses Modern Arnis de Mano, Modern Mano-Mano, and everything else that GM teaches. >>What is the linguistic origin of the name or is this a variation of "Combative Baston"? I had thought that Grandmaster had decided on Filipino Combative Arts Presas Style.<< "Kombatan" translates into English as "combatives". However, this is too generic a word in the western world, so we would further qualify it as: KOMBATAN Filipino Combative Martial Arts Founder: Grandmaster Ernesto A. Presas >>Can you fill me in more?<< Although I wasn't that active in 1998 because I had moved out of California, there was one particularly historic meeting that I did participate in. GM, Jan-Jan (Ernesto Jr), and I met with several lakans in the SF Greater Bay Area to address a problem and find a solution to it. The problem was this: Those who liked/followed GM Remy would not host, nor attend, GM Ernesto's seminars by virtue of their friendship/loyalty to Remy (the fact that personal differences between the two brothers had arisen was well known, but not the details). Those who viewed GM Remy as a competitor, also would not host, nor attend, Ernesto's seminars by virtue of the fact that Ernesto was Remy's brother! And those who didn't care, one way or the other, either thought that the two brothers were teaching the same thing or that Ernesto was only a student of Remy, so why attend Ernesto's seminars? It was a losing proposition for GM Ernesto all the way around. The solution was this: Change the name of GM Ernesto's art so that it would have a chance to stand and be judged on its own merits. Although Remy and Ernesto had a common starting point --they were both taught by their father, and Remy being 10 years older than Ernesto, would have also initially taught Ernesto--, the two brothers had gone their separate ways and developed their own systems. Back then, Ernesto's first choice for the name of the system he was developing was "Kombatan". In English, this would translate to "Combatives". However, he was about to introduce his art at UST (University of Santo Thomas) and other colleges in the Philippines, and he felt that the term, Kombatan,was too "extreme" (in today's parlance) for a university/collegiate environment, so he chose the term "Modern Arnis". Before GM Remy left the Philippines for the U.S., he asked Ernesto if he could use the term "Modern Arnis". Of course, Ernesto said yes. Remy came to the states and so dominated the seminar scene (some even say he started the concept of martial art seminars) that the term "arnis" became a household word (at least in martial art households), and "Modern Arnis" became forever linked to Remy's personal style/system. When GM Ernesto came to the United States to introduce his art, he named his system "Modern Arnis de Mano" to distinguish it from his brother's. It didn't help much. In the U.S., anything with the term "Modern Arnis" implied "Remy Presas". At that meeting in 1998, we decided that a new name was needed to distinguish what GM Ernesto was teaching. In as much as "Modern Arnis" was inextricably linked to Remy, so too, the new name should be linked to Ernesto, and Ernesto only. Everything that Ernesto taught --his Modern Arnis de Mano, Modern Mano-Mano, his personal "styles" of dumog (Filipino grappling/wrestling), daga (knife), and the lesser known weapons of the Philippines, would be rolled up into one, integrated system. The name GM chose that night, at that meeting, was "Kombatan". He had come full circle. When I last did a Web search on "kombatan", the search results revealed only one website, Jon Rudy's. Hopefully now, it will also show the Canadian (Ed Ursulom's) and European (Ralph Hinderberger's) websites. We got what we wanted, a name associated only with GM Ernesto's system and organization. Now it's up to GM Ernesto and the rest of us to make "Kombatan" a household word, just as GM Remy and his group had done for "Modern Arnis". I warn you though, if we don't soon get this name firmly entrenched with GM Ernesto and IPMAF, it could be picked up by others because it is pretty generic. P.S. At first, Jan-Jan was not too happy about this proposed name change. As he put it, he had grown up with "Modern Arnis"; to change it would be like losing his life-long identity; but if that's what his father wanted, he would go along. However, by the end of the meeting, he was secretly (i.e., unknown to GM) entertaining thoughts about having the word, "KOMBATAN" and the newer version of the IPMAF logo tatoo'd on his body! It's a good thing Lito and I didn't take him anywhere close to a tatoo parlor! : - ) P.P.S. As I mentioned to some of you already, the one good thing that arose from GM Ernesto's heart attack was that it induced his big brother Remy to call him. They are on good terms again and will stay that way, I hope. But even when they weren't, I know from being with GM Ernesto, that there was always a deep ("hidden" is probably a more appropriate word) abiding love between the two. :-) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:38:21 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Seminar gig > Sorry Ray looks like I struck a nerve again!!! Cheez, Rock... No, but apparently I did w/you. > Look Ray I know you don't have much respect for him, ... Remy? Incorrect. When have I EVER said that? As a matter of fact I have always claimed the opposite. That said, I feel no need to comment on the remainder of your post. You were clearly in a bad mood. All I did was correct one single error in a long post. Would you not have done the same if I had incorrectly stated something about, say, Bacen's Belantewac? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #257 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.