From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 27 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 265 In this issue: eskrima: Chris Sayoc web site eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 eskrima: RE: Sayoc Kali website eskrima: Re: Arlan's Post eskrima: Re: Full Contact! eskrima: Re: Off Topic Announcement eskrima: Arlan etal.... eskrima: Utica, NY Pekiti Seminar eskrima: Re: Self Defense Opinions eskrima: Re full contact eskrima: Full Contact Stick Fighting with Eric "Top Dog" Knaus and David Wink eskrima: Great Post by Carlton Fung, D.D.S. eskrima: Full Contact Sparring eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 eskrima: rank ranks? eskrima: true tests of skill eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 eskrima: Jeorg's Karate student plz read, others please pardon eskrima: Modern Arnis The Best?? please! eskrima: Re: Full contact sparring eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 eskrima: US - Memorial Day ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gints Klimanis Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:59:19 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Chris Sayoc web site > From: "Maytin, Jose" > Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:38:30 -0400 > Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #262 > > Does anyone have the web page link for Chris Sayoc ? > I remember coming across it a long time ago on a 'knife' site. > I know he has a monthly knife seminar in NY and the schedule and info are > there. http://www.trainingblades.com has a bunch of seminar info and Sayoc links. ------------------------------ From: Stuart Igarta Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 Right on Arlan! You are the man! I wish I could have said what you just did! Stuart S. Igarta Check out our website - http://www.fullcontacthi.com ........................................................ iWon.com http://www.iwon.com why wouldn't you? ........................................................ ------------------------------ From: "Steven C. Drape" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: RE: Sayoc Kali website Service Brought To You By http://WWW.DWP.NET - -------------------------------------------- >Does anyone have the web page link for Chris Sayoc ? It's a new site. You can find it at: http://www.sayoc.com Steve Steve_kbs@dwp.net http://www.geocities.com/eartes/KBS_System_index.html ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Arlan's Post > Everyone I've met, in or out of DB, who has really fought against > someone of equal or superior skill, and wanted to improve, have > talked how it changes their training from then on like nothing > else they've done. We've had the same experience here in Hawaii. Quite a few people wondering if they should try it. The only person that didn't really care to come back was a guy that had really ackward body mechanics, been in the FMA for about 8 years but never practiced. But > somewhere in the back of their minds, there has to be a little voice > going, "do I really know what I'm doing?" How will you know? When Stuart and I first saw the Dog Brothers, we said alot of the same things that the non-fighters criticize about. But deep inside I had that thought-"Could I handle a guy like Eric" that left me with a very un-easy feeling. After Stuart and I had bought all the equiptment and asked James to come along(we needed a camera man;)) even James said somthing along the lines of "Why would I want to do that. I know my stuff works. I've got nothing to prove." I know he sings a different tune now. We all do. Excellent post, Arlan. ===== Check out our web page at http://www.fullcontacthi.com and visit Chad's Corner-Full Contact Stickfighting in Hawaii. "What one man would or would not do, does not mean another man should or should not do."-Me as Myself Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Dave & Heather Fulton" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:51:09 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Full Contact! > >From: "Carlton H. Fung,D.D.S." >Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:34:56 -0700 >Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #261 > >First I do full contact sparring and lite sparring sometimes with gear >sometimes without. Here is a bold >statement...Full contact sparring what's the point? Full contact sparring >helps you be a better fighter no >more than learning an FMA triangle footwork pattern. Many people miss the >point of NHB/full >contact/real contact etc... These are a piece of the puzzle and not a >critical one either. Those who think it >is are uninformed or diluding themselves. The late Pendekar Herman Suwanda >always said..." Fighting is >cheating". Think about what this means and the reality of my post becomes >crystal clear. > >Regards, > >Carlton H. Fung,D.D.S. >Redondo Beach, Ca. > >- -----Original Message----- > >>I freely admit that I don't do enough stick sparring and no full out stuff. >>I do spar full out at times in other areas like Muay Thai and >groundfighting >>and I do realise that you cannot train all the time at this intensity. This >>seems to be a misconception that some have of the full contact clubs that >>exist and one I daresay the fc guys do like to exagerate. I don't mean that >>as an offensive criticism but this is a good thread. At what intensity do >>you train at and how often do you go at maximum? >> >>pat >>Aberdeen Martial Arts Group > > I'm not an expert in the FMA by any stretch of the imagination, but I've seen how some (though admittedly not all) other groups train and I can honestly say our training is intense in comparison to what I've seen. I'm not talking about our sparring/fighting either, I'm just talking about our training in general. I also think that the intensity of your training is going to vary depending upon what you are trying to accomplish at the moment. As a rule of thumb, we try to fight full-contact one day a week, but we train in cycles and depending on the cycle we may not be as religious about it as other times. "Full contact sparring what's the point?" We think of FCF as a laboratory where you can experiment with the system to find out what works and what doesn't. FCF also accelerates the development of fighting skills and acts as a vehicle in the "Hunt for Magic". In our opinion, it IS critical! Respectfully, Dave Fulton Full Contact Martial Arts Association. ------------------------------ From: "Dave & Heather Fulton" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:59:55 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Off Topic Announcement I'm sorry for the delay in the following, but life's been crazy lately. I'm proud to announce that on May 11th my wife gave birth to our son, Mark David Fulton. He was born at 11:25 pm and was 7lb, 10.75 oz and 22 inches long. Everyone is doing fine, including our 3yr old daughter (Carlyn) who is adjusting well (so far) .... though we could all us a little more sleep ;o) Thanks! Dave Fulton. ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:44:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Arlan etal.... > From: "Jason Inay" > Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:20:45 PDT > Subject: eskrima: In response to Dr Carlton > > This has to be the most intelligent post I have seen yet on this thread. > WTG! > I guess we have at least Jason and Fry Bread who understands. For those of you who do not like Arlan let me explain. This is first not a put down. I am glad I got you people to think. Chad says: and Stuart had a similar point that ... > >Full contact sparring what's the point? Full contact sparring > >helps you be a better fighter no more than learning an FMA triangle > >footwork pattern. > > I have to disagree with that statement Doc. In my opinion, I am a much > better fighter today than I was a year ago...even 4 months ago. The > lessons it has given me in timing and distance, I don't know how to > really explain. > No you are better at putting together what you have learned in a controled sparring arena perhaps with gear like a fencing mask. You do this with friends and there is no malice towards your sparing partners. > >Many people miss the point of NHB/full contact/real contact etc... > > I have to agree with the Doc on his point also. Yes you really do agree with me since my post is all about the same issue. We just do not have a mutual understanding of terms such as "full contact and fighting". To a lesser extent this is Arlan's problem except he appears to believe DB real contact with hockey gloves or Eric's batting gloves and a fencing mask is "fighting". You can call it that but this is not fighting anymore than a boxing match is a fight except it is called one so they can sell it> So Arlan writes: > Piece of the puzzle? It is the puzzle. I have to say, I love posts like this. Comments like these always seem to come from people who can't seem to make it to a fight, they talk about hard sparring, but seem to have a different context of what that entails. Arlan seems to basically be saying walk the walk talk the talk. Well Arlan I usually agree with you since our backround paths have some similarity. Are you trying to get a rise out of me? So here is the deal: Fighting is the "universe". That is why SiGung Lee calls it the fighting contiumim. Everything else goes in it. Sparring,footwork drills, carenzas, multiple teachers, more lessons are all part of the puzzle. Each person has to search their own sole as to how they attain enlightenment. Those who do not see from multiple angles usually take a long time to get there. This is why there are people you train with who are better sparrers and some are better drillers and each has to work on the missing attribute to be complete. To understand science you have math and you have reading structure. You cannot fully understand science through only one venue. If you could you would not be doing so many DB gatherings and training because you would already have enlightenment. Simply put you are wrong because DB realcontact is not fighting. A grassy field, headgear, handguards and Crafty with a bigger stick on the field with the combatants is a fancy sparring match. Where is the surprise? The dark alley? The slipery uneven concrete? The stairs? The trash can? Fighting comes in many contexts most of which involve surprise, ambush, lapse of awareness, unfortuitous posturing. If Animal is on this list lets hear from the street fighter. DB does not have the lock on contact. If I have my history right DB started in like the 80's, L.A. Inosanto Academy and we old students had been doing this since at least '74 in Inosanto's Kali Academy in Harbor City because I did it and sifu even set some broken thumbs in class! Before that there was Sifu's backyard and I was in diapers. As to who I am please ask Crafty Dog. Full contact... I have been there and done that. I have attended instructor's classes at Guro Inosanto's with your Crafty years ago but I am no instructor. I have been in and out of Inosanto's since 1974 at the original Filipino Kali Academy and attended both IMB and Inosanto's for extended periods and maintain contacts and training with them if I make the time even today. I've have been taught by most of the namebrand guys at one time or another through Guro I and B, like GM's Canete, GM Giron etc.... I have been taught and train with at one time or another with many associated Inosanto people like Paulson who fights partly for a living, Lucky Dog, Island Dog, Several late 30 somthing and 40 ish "original JKD" class guys and still train weekly with a few of these people since these are my firends. I no martial superstar. I'm no bad ass fighter. I always wear my white belt to train. I am still seeking enlightenment. One thing I do know with certainty...all the hard sparring full contact "gloves or no", " headgear or no" is not "fighting". >You think hard sparring and footwork drills are on > the same level? Do you live on another planet? If you don't know you can > apply your skills in real time, you're living a lie. YES Arlan these are at the same level. I do not care how hard you swing a stick. If you have no mobility you have nothing. Realtime is critcally important. Realtime is just...not fighting. Just like "Boards don't hit back". Respectfully, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:37:22 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Utica, NY Pekiti Seminar I will be conducting a one day seminar in Utica, NY on Saturday June 3rd. The curriculum will be the empty hand strikes of the Abcedario de Mano and their associated knife applications. The knife applications are particularly interesting because it is one of the few times you see Pekiti large knife and small knife used in both hammer and icepick grips in one block of technique. For more information please contact Mr. Chris Fry at: (315) 724-7479 Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: WEE Shin Hoe Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:37:13 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Self Defense Opinions Dear All, I have the honour of seeking advice from a Guro here who actually had involved in clan wars and survived. These are his advices which I would to share for discussion: 1. A lot of good martial artists get killed because they panic or freezes at he first sight of blood. 2. Your survival depends on your ability to continue fighting after being injured. 3. Always aware of your environment and use it to your advantage. A general that ignore the environment will loose the war. 4. Use whatever weapons that you can get your hands on (sticks, chairs, bottle etc). Use your bare hands only when you do not have any choice. When facing multiple attackers; 1. If you choose the right spot, not more than two can effectively attack you at the same time. 2. In the heat of a fight using weapons, your attacker is more likely to be injured by his own friends than you. 3. Your attackers are as afraid of dying as you are. No matter how many attackers there are, they will hesitate to attack you if they know that some of them is going down with you. 4. Ignore those that making all the noise and threats. Pay attention to those that stay cool and quiet, these are usually experienced killers. With regard to the important of full contact training. His advice is "As any war veteren can testify, no amount of trainings can prepare you for the shock of the battlefield. If you panic, you die." I would appreciate your opinions. - -- Regards, WEE Shin Hoe Malaysia Email : shinhoe@pc.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: rocpas@ameritech.net Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:50:00 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re full contact Arlan wrote: > any number of other reasons for training, but I think it's all about > developing grace under pressure; no pressure, no grace. > > Arlan Actually he wrote a bunch of other stuff to, most of which was so good that, but I figure why quote his whole post, I don't want to give him a big head or anything :-). Any ways it seems like every couple of months or so the fighting/sparring/padded/unpadded stuff comes up again. And once again we must strive to educate people. Look just about any form of sparring is better than none at all. You as a FMA'er must decide what level you wish to take your training. Light contact allows for certain things to be worked on, full padded training seems to be good for stamina, some of the WEAKA or what ever their group is called seem to be able to beat on each other forever. And of course the PT or DBM type of fighting, will test your courage and maybe give you a little insight as to how you will react to pain and extreme aggression. But even inside of all these groups I have mentioned their are other avenues to test. I have never seen a dbm fight other than a brief glimpse at a tape someone had at a seminar I gave. The one thing I noticed was lots of room to move, I don't know if this is always the case or not! But fighting in a small room with no place for big footwork, is another great avenue to explore. You put all these things together or as many of them as you want depending on the level you wish to achieve and it can do nothing but help you. But never fall into complacency with your ability, just because you fight hard and win most of the time, does not mean you would win in a real non padded fight, if you have a tendency to get tagged first, by a couple of head shots. We use to have a guy years ago that always took at least one shot at the beginning of each match to the head then he would proceed to whip our butts, he was very large with unusually good footwork, and speed for his size. My first fight was against this same guy Dave Jenkins from PT it was my first full contact fight, probably the fastest Eskrima fight ever!!! I was spectacular of course, we put our sticks together, our friend Miguel placed his stick under ours, flip them apart and said go!! So I went high, figuring what the hell he was easy enough to hit!!! Well this time he didn't sit their and take the shot instead he went low and in about 1 second struck my shin bone and broke my leg. The way I fell was spectacular, with total disregard to my head I fell straight forward on my face. On a scale from 1 to 10 my friends gave me a 10 for the most cuss words ever uttered in less than 10 seconds and for the really cool way I fell to the ground and grabbed my leg, they dubbed it the fetal Eskrimador position!!! Any ways it was a definite eye opener for me!! Rocky ------------------------------ From: "Dave & Heather Fulton" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:49:46 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Full Contact Stick Fighting with Eric "Top Dog" Knaus and David Wink The seminar, which was held on May 20th, went very well! Everyone that attended showed up ready to work hard, learn and have fun ... which is exactly what we proceeded to do! We had two rooms and two world class fighters/teachers, so we broke up into two groups and alternated between Eric and David (Wink) who were teaching complimentary subjects . For example: while Eric was teaching his power shots to group A, David was teaching evasion to group B, then we switched and group B worked with Eric on power shots while group A worked with David on evasion, etc. During the course of the day, everyone received instruction on: power (long & short), evasion, closing, thrusts & punyos, the "Fang" Choke and more. The seminar wrapped up with a presentation of one of Bob Burgee's beautiful aluminum training swords to Eric as a token of appreciation and some full-contact fighting between Eric and various members of our club. Even a few of the seminar attendees joined in. Then after most people had left, a few of us stuck around for a couple of hours of laughs and stories from Eric and David. In all it was a great day of learning, making friends, laughing and exchanging lumps & welts. There was even a little blood shed, but it was all taken in stride. Thanks again to everyone who showed up and helped to make the day a great success. Thanks especially to Eric .... for everything! Dave Fulton Full Contact Martial Arts Association. P.S. We also got to see Eric and David fight and do some high-speed fitting/distance sparring which was so beautiful to watch that I personally was in awe ... no doubt I wasn't the only one either. There was something magical to it. If you weren't there you truly missed out. ------------------------------ From: "Patrick Christian" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 02:11:37 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Great Post by Carlton Fung, D.D.S. Stuart Igarta replied to a very good post from Dr. Fung: That's your opinion and I respect you for it but, I know that going full contact has not only taught me about distance and timing but about my knowledge of the art and how much I still need to learn. You can always say that you'd do this and that, if someone did this, but can you actually execute it. Full contact is a testing ground. It's asks the question, can you execute such and such deflection, if someone is coming at you at full speed with the intent of actually hitting you, instead of stopping short. I believe that full contact is a critical part of the puzzle, if that makes me uninformed and deluded then so be it. My reply (opinion): Doctor Fung hit the nail on the head. Full contact does have it's place, but it is a small place. It will give you a place to learn the flow of a fight and timing. It will also give you a little taste of being hit with a stick. That's why we do it every now and then. However, if you spend your time learning what it is like to be hit (and to hit) you loose the concept that Eskrima is a blade art. There is absolutely no place for swapping blows. You can easily forget how important blocking is. Not only is blocking important, but it is very well the most important thing of all. We study a martial art, and a martial art is preparation for war. You do not go to war with an empty hand or even just a stick. You take a blade, now a gun (but I digress). I've seen it before and will do so again. I like to give and take a beating every now and then. But I do not delude myself into thinking it will make me a better fighter if I do it every week. Anyone can easily fall into the stick mindset; "I'll take this blow to the leg because I can get him in the hand on my counter-strike." Here-in lies the very problem of full-contact: you can lose the respect that this is a blade art. You forget to BLOCK "...you got to block!"--Angel Cabales Patrick N. Christian Inayan School of Eskrima Lenoir City, TN www.inayaneskrima.com ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:17:07 EDT Subject: eskrima: Full Contact Sparring This is a very good points. This is work. >> First I do full contact sparring and lite sparring sometimes with gear sometimes without. Here is a bold statement...Full contact sparring what's the point? Full contact sparring helps you be a better fighter no more than learning an FMA triangle footwork pattern. Many people miss the point of N >> You got it right, word nicely done, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet ------------------------------ From: LIVEBLADES@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 03:45:09 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 In a message dated 05/25/2000 7:42:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Maytin, Jose" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:38:30 -0400 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #262 Does anyone have the web page link for Chris Sayoc ? I remember coming across it a long time ago on a 'knife' site. I know he has a monthly knife seminar in NY and the schedule and info are there. Thanks >> http://sayoc.com/index.htm ------------------------------ From: "Phil Tong" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:42:27 -0700 Subject: eskrima: rank ranks? Sam/Tim: thanks for your thoughts they echo many of my own. We could philosphize (sp sorry) about the merits/demerits of rank and it's effect on the individual, standing in the community, views of potential students, maybe even eyes of an insurance underwriter, etc. but ultimately is about the individual, even naked as it were. "To thine own self be true". A funny thought I just had was that of a teacher vs. fighter and how should each be ranked? By what criteria? Or something like that (it's late here). The two, even if highly skilled in those separate categories, may not equal the same person let alone have the same skill sets. How about a 90 y.o. GM who has more knowledge but body unable to compete, should his rank then go away etc. etc. Weird eh when you start taking it to extremes? No answers here out of me I am master of none :) Have a great friday & holiday weekend everyone! Phil ps. I want my E-D (more!) pss. got my first sets of sticks whoo hoo!!! so far learning by observation but will soon ask the GM to teach me formally. I know he needs a "dummy" for empty hand too. Wish me luck, my (painful?) journey is just beginning! ------------------------------ From: "Phil Tong" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:13:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: true tests of skill Last post before my head hits the keyboard ;) There is no doubt in my mind that real life battles have been waged between schools, individuals, what have you. This has been documented time and time again through man's love of war for example. The history of the samurai also bares this out. Even in our time for example Bruce Lee was challenged by Wong Jack Man, it is fact, and also fact Bruce gave him a thrashing. (I also have my own theories as to why Bruce and later his son were silenced but that is another subject). When I was growing up around chinatown fights were the real deal, one time it was even chains vs. baseball bat LOL (the chain dude "won" only because his gang jumped in then the whole crowd beat the crap out of the other poor guy. no way I was getting in the middle of that) Anyhows, things got real ugly when all of sudden guns were added to the mix and the rest as they say is bloody history, RIP. Now I say "oh brother" at the stupidity of it all and only seek peace from without and within. But it's funny how the art of war must be a part of that peace, at least for me. Ying and yang. Let sleeping dogs lay. Good night/morning all. Phil ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 04:17:35 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 In a message dated 5/25/00 4:42:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Does anyone have the web page link for Chris Sayoc ? I remember coming across it a long time ago on a 'knife' site. I know he has a monthly knife seminar in NY and the schedule and info are there. Thanks >> http://sayoc.com/ steve ------------------------------ From: "Jesse & Anne Greenawalt" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:30:15 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Jeorg's Karate student plz read, others please pardon If I remember correctly, there is a student from Jeorg's Karate/Kickboxing (in PA) on this list. Would you please e-mail me? In a PC problem, I lost your address months ago and I'd like to come down & work out with you guys that still play with sticks. Ray & all, please pardon & thanks for the bandwidth. And while I'm yakkin', all you USA-ers have a wonderful & safe holiday. Thanks, jester ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:32:45 EDT Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis The Best?? please! In a message dated 5/25/00 7:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Its to bad because as I have stated I truly believe that Modern Arnis is the best FMA out their for basic self defense that can be achieved in a minimal amount of time, which suit the vast majority of the public these days. Rocky Rocky, Rocky, Don't push-it, please.. That make any other FMA a second best, third, etc. I have nothing against your belief but please dont push it.. I believed everyone here knows what everyone capable of. You and I know what the Modern Arnis limitation. You can't fool me brother, so let it it be heard that all FMA are equal in effectivenes and some weaknesses. Be realistic and fair. Claiming such, bring home some troubles. Thanks for the nice post though. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:04:04 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Full contact sparring Hello ED members, I just want to post a little thought in Full contact. Full contact sparring is a missing part of the puzzle, to everyone's training. Start with light contact no gear if possible. Gear teach you false target, and teach false confidants. Full contact is the only way to train your skill in, proper execution, timing, distance etc. I watched different sparring session even in Karate and Tae Kwon Do, as soon as the referee let start the fight everyone want to go in and bang each other, try no gear everyone is hesitate to go in, right away, they know it hurts to get hit without that protection, with stick or empty hand. I know everyone thinking safety, but remember you are training for self preservation. What ever excuse you have, to used the protection gear, is a false training to me. Yes, you prove your partner that you can heat him/her as many as you want, but in the end you just have a good work, out but false confident installed to your mind, that you can do the same in real situation. You are still 50/50 not sure. Do you know or you even realized that training 'Semi Realistic" is not close to realistic? Your chance is luck, to survive for real. Well, is just thought for everyone, try this pattern, start sparring, light contact (Magaan-laro), medium contact (Katam-taman-laro) and Full contact (Labang-laro) still talk about rules and always start with a smile and understanding, so at the end of the session no one going home with bad feeling to each other. Do not used any protection, yes you might used padded stick . Remember rolled up papers is hurts too, So even the stick is padded the contact is almost realistic. But no pad is a must to train. This is my training pattern. Gumagalang/with respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet ------------------------------ From: "Jason Inay" Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:27:49 PDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #264 *snaps to attention and salutes the list members* Chad Said: From: Chad IMO, no. Majestic mountains to desert of oceans. Chocolate and Vanilla. Ebony and Ivory. In my experience you learn, you practice, you fight, find out what you did wrong(did you get hit?), find out what you did right(did you hit him,deflect, etc.?), practice some more, fight, practice, fight, etc. ____________ Whew!, almost thought you would break into a song =-) Good post! I like to use the analogy of Lecture and Lab work. First you lecture, then you test your ideas in the lab. - --------------- Salty Dog said: From: "arlan and angel sanford" Piece of the puzzle? It is the puzzle. - --- Why bother indeed? I do agree with your post for the most part sir. However, I have often found that the need for Full Contact training is often due to the lack of inattentiveness on my part when recieving a lesson. I am sure we are all familiar with the "I told you so" look from our respective teachers. Part of the reason we teach students and why we take lessons from our own teachers is to benefit from their experience and our students' from ours. So we do not have to make the same mistakes repeatedly. i.e. never engage in a winter war with russians, tisk tisk Napoleon. You think hard sparring and footwork drills are on the same level? Not totally, but if I teach right and the student is attentive the transition to sparring is smooth and pretty effortless. It is up to the teacher to make the student better then himself, and the student's duty to surpass the teacher. On the other side, every sword must be tempered. And every warrior must endure the crucible of battle. Even your common house plant can't survive outside without first being conditioned to the winds. - --- Gods in their own minds! JASON minor deity of perpetual bruises. =-) hehe developing grace under pressure; no pressure, no grace. Nicely put! Have you read Gates of Fire ( the battle at Thermopalye) ? I think you would love it. snip In response to a missive stating: surrender sir for we have enough archers that we would blot out the sun with our arrows. Dienekes says " Then by the gods we will fight in the shade" (loose quote, if memory serves me right) - -------------- All in all, neither approach is wrong or right. The debate on sparring vs. no sparring is a matter of prefference and goals. Some people get in to MA for social reasons, some for exercise, an unfortunate number for fad or movie reasons, and a rare few for true combative effectiveness. If you look at a map you will find there are many ways to get to the same point. It just depends on your driving prefs. Teachers have different approaches and methods to get their student to a particular point. Curriculum is determined by the goals of the instructor and for the most part rank is used to set milestones for the student (beyond Sr. Instructor level much of ranking is political in most organizations). A good teacher can use many methods to help a student reach their goals within the arts. Thereby meeting the goals and needs of the student and also the particular curriculum they teach. In Inayan we use several methods to get someone to the calibre needed to spar. And we try to keep the Lions from the Christians as it were. (no offense inteded to any religously minded people out there, just using a Roman History analogy). Now the combative types will eventually get to spar more quickly then say the ones that are more interested in exercise for example. As one of my father's most esteemed peers says "Block hard or Suck wind" *salutes* Jason Inay ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: US - Memorial Day Wishing those in the US a thoughtful Memorial Day. Ray ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.