From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #266 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 28 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 266 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Law Enforcement Edge Weapon Awareness Inst. Course eskrima: Warrior spirit eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 eskrima: Re: ??? eskrima: Memorial Day and Dr. Gyi eskrima: what-is-the-point? to your "EDGE" eskrima: Modern Arnis Datus eskrima: video reviews eskrima: Re:Full Contact Thread eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 eskrima: Presas - Reply to Digest 258 [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PKMM1@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:58:55 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Law Enforcement Edge Weapon Awareness Inst. Course Tim Waid will be doing an Edged Weapon Awareness/Stragic Knife Defense Instructor course in Bossier City Louisiana on June 5th through 10th, 2000. Cost is $350.00. Interested parties may contact S. Joe at PKMM1@AOL.com. or leave a message at (318)630-1907. This is restricted to law enforcement, military and security. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:06:28 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Warrior spirit Jason Inay wrote: "In response to a missive stating: surrender sir for we have enough archers that we would blot out the sun with our arrows. Dienekes says " Then by the gods we will fight in the shade" Very cool quote and a good example of the warrior spirit. It reminds me of the story of the Nazi general in Switzerland speaking to his counterpart prior to WWII at a shooting tournament (which the Swiss were winning, of course). Nazi: "You can only put 100,000 men in the field. I could easily send an army of 200,000 men across your border. Then what would you do"? Swiss: "Order all my men to shoot twice". Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com ------------------------------ From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:13:33 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 > I've seen it before and will do so again. I like to give and take a > beating every now and then. But I do not delude myself into thinking it will > make me a better fighter if I do it every week. Anyone can easily fall into > the stick mindset; "I'll take this blow to the leg because I can get him in > the hand on my counter-strike." Here-in lies the very problem of > full-contact: you can lose the respect that this is a blade art. You forget > to BLOCK > 1) I don't profess to practice a blade art, my interest is blunt weapons. Don't mistake that for lack of knowledge in that area. If you are using a stick, you use it to it's potential, if you have a blade, you use it to it's best effect, they are very different weapons and trying to make one work like the other doesn't really take advantage of each's strengths. 2) When I fight (spar, whatever) I go in trying to deliver my shots without recieving any, it's not very bright to think you can trade.Someone like Eric blocks and evades so well, he's almost impossible to hit. I try to do the same. Not that it doesn't happen, but that holds true in any kind of fight, nobody wins all the time and comes away unscathed. However, by testing myself, I can see where I need improvement, where I'm making mistakes, what works and how to make it work better. If you don't test yourself, you're only guessing. 3)Training in Martial arts has always (mostly) been a way to organize the most winning ways of fighting, the losers didn't have much to teach. Training was a means to an end, fighting. Most of use don't live where our lives depend on daily use of a stick or bladed weapon, but we should still test to the best we can. once you lose that martial arts becomes just another form of onanism. Arlan ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:13:02 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: ??? In a message dated 5/27/00 1:42:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Realtime is just...not fighting. Just like "Boards don't hit back". >> Err...so Doc what is your definition of fighting? Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: Kilap@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:16:01 EDT Subject: eskrima: Memorial Day and Dr. Gyi Ray writes: << Wishing those in the US a thoughtful Memorial Day. >> Nick S. gave a good overview of the NYC seminar with Dr. Gyi. Only thing he left out was Dr. Gyi of beat sense of humor (why was Alexander Great?) and bagging on the Dog brothers. He sez I've been told that Kali and Silat people are sensitive people....what are you a bunch of limp dicks! On a somewhat more serious vein he was particular that the salute with the Kukri be done right as, among other things, it is an expression of paying respect to veterans. He asked all in attendance to get a flower, don't matter if it's cheap, and go place it on a veteran's memorial or grave sometime this month. The 3 part series of articles Crafty posted here sometime back if you haven't read 'em, do it for some grasp of the weigh behind this ...they can be had by searching the old digests at Grand poobah Ray's site. Semper Fi, Travis P.s. I was the only knucklehead to cut my self, Kukri cut through the scabbard and into my finger ..which equates to be sloppy technique ...quickly remedied! ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 23:24:07 -0700 Subject: eskrima: what-is-the-point? to your "EDGE" In private emails and some public posts some people seem to miss the point of my post still. I agree with the narrow scope or arguments about the importance of FC. But I do not agree with the globalness that FC is the "Coup de Gras". My post is Full contact..."what- is -the-point?" As in, "what is the point of doing it", like what do you get from it? It is part of the puzzle not "The" puzzle. My post is not what is the point "of doing it at all" as some may think or infer. > > Everyone I've met, in or out of DB, who has really fought against > > someone of equal or superior skill, and wanted to improve, have > > talked how it changes their training from then on like nothing > > else they've done. > We've had the same experience here in Hawaii. Quite a few people > wondering if they should try it. The only person that didn't really > care to come back was a guy that had really ackward body mechanics This awkward guy is the one you have to worry about. He will throw crap from weird angles. Anyone who is an IMB'er who has sparred the late Alan Purganan can attest to his unusual ability to hit you very hard while looking very bad such that you think you can't be hit...that should put a smile on a few lister's faces who have felt Alan's left cross. > things that the non-fighters criticize about. But deep inside I had > that thought-"Could I handle a guy like Eric" that left me with a very > un-easy feeling. This is a very important thought in the context of Eric's/DB's chosen environment as Rocky illudes to below. However, venues change then these thoughts could lead to very dangerous overconfidence in unproven answers. SiGung Lee wrote something to the effect he thought a punch was just a punch and a kick just a kick. Then he learned a puch was like this, and a kick was like that. Then he learned a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. You see experience, exploration and open-mindedness will shape future answers to the same revisited questions. Pounding the same path yields the same answers. Life, Fighting, and Stockmarket trading can only be won if you have an "edge" and I do not neccessarily mean a sharp thing. The key to success is not full contact training but always knowing what may constitute your "edge" at a specific moment in time...sometimes that "may" be what you glean from full contact. > >>I do spar full out at times in other areas like Muay Thai and > >groundfighting > >>and I do realise that you cannot train all the time at this intensity. Well sort of "full out" since you probably have not smashed your elbow into your friends face and you have not broken his arm in an armbar. You see there are still effects of your actions and therefore multiple permutations of an outcome. You have still not had the "battle" dispite the fact that you are closer than hitting thai pads. Even the UFC has rules written or not and you do too with your partners. I am not down playing what you do but we all must realize the potential meaning of the traing method. Everything except "fighting for keeps with malice and intention to harm" is just "training method" and a form of self-discovery. > "Full contact sparring what's the point?" We think of FCF as a laboratory > where you can experiment with the system to find out what works and what > doesn't. Very well said. I would add...what works and what doen't at that particular point in one's understanding and physical reflection of that system. You see it is amazing what now works for me that did not work for me earlier. I just had to grow up a bit. That is another reason for Guru I's reminder to all his students that he is not teacher enough. We each have to do personal research. Those on this list who had access and keys to the old academy's can attest to that. Guro felt this was so important that he freely gave out keys to the store so to speak. > "Hunt for Magic".> > Respectfully, > > Dave Fulton Dave I really like this phrase! WEE writes: > With regard to the important of full contact training. His advice is "As > any war veteren can testify, no amount of trainings can prepare you for > the shock of the battlefield. There it is! Rocky's comment on venue: >I have never > seen a dbm fight other than a brief glimpse at a tape someone had at a > seminar I gave. The one thing I noticed was lots of room to move, I > don't know if this is always the case or not! But fighting in a small > room with no place for big footwork, is another great avenue to explore. > You put all these things together or as many of them as you want > depending on the level you wish to achieve and it can do nothing but > help you. But never fall into complacency with your ability> Patrick writes: > However, if you spend your time learning what it is like to be hit (and > to hit) you loose the concept that Eskrima is a blade art. There is > absolutely no place for swapping blows. Very important point. Cutting does not need much force. I have not talked to Crafty Dog about this but it appears that he does realize this. That is the reason I believe he brought in the aluminium training daggers and discouraged the blunt short dowels. He is bringing DB into a higher reality. An intersting note I witnessed in the last DB gathering was that it appeared that the combantants where swinging harder and trading more blows with less defense. Consistent with that intensity level there was a great "long and aluminium dagger" contest where one combatant apparantly forgot this is not a wood dowel. He closed and took a NASTY aluminium dagger to the chest wearing nothing but a t-shirt. He kept going dispite obvious effect by his instant body posturing. For the remainder of the contest he did not close anymore. > You think hard sparring and footwork drills are on > the same level? > > Not totally, but if I teach right and the student is attentive the > transition to sparring is smooth and pretty effortless. It is up to the > teacher to make the student better then himself, and the student's duty to > surpass the teacher You make a good teacher Rocky writes on an unrealted topic: > I truly believe that Modern Arnis is the best FMA out their for basic > self defense that can be achieved in a minimal amount of time, which > suit the vast majority of the public these days I do not know what Modern Arnis is but if it is smilar to most other FMA in training methodology...Do you think that FMA being primarily stick based in the U.S. makes sence for self-defense initially? I find that many have difficulty translating the stick to the empty hand. Yes FMA has empty hand translation and is a complete art but even a layman from the philipines will say escrima? you mean arnis "stick" fighting? I am surprised that with your boxing backround you would not find the contact,timing,rhythum and conditioning instantly the best first choice in concrete America. Heck just about anyone who had a decent hook could hold a stick the same way and deliver not a bad swing don't you think? Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan Broster" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:51:14 GMT Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis Datus I am sorry to return to the subject of who is or is not a Datu in modern arnis, but I just attended a very enjoyable seminar with Remy Presas hosted by David Hoffman. They were selling Modern Arnis UK t-shirts with the IMAF logo and "Datu David Hoffman" on them, so he obviously thinks that he is. Mabuhay Jon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan Broster" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:06:02 GMT Subject: eskrima: video reviews I just posted some more video reviews on my web site. They include: Inayan Kadena de Mano, The grandfathers speak (Dog Bros series 2), Serrada Escrima, Doce Pares and William Sanders. I have also put in some seminar reports and a fairly pathetic list of training contacts in the UK I am also in the process of posting some instructions on how to build your own wooden dummy Find all this and more at http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster Mabuhay Jon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re:Full Contact Thread Oh Boy, did I do that? Responds to a couple of things here, in no particular order: This was directed torward me: >No you are better at putting together what you have learned in a >controled sparring arena perhaps with >gear like a fencing mask. You >do this with friends and there is no malice towards your sparing >partners. You have no authority to speak of what I am better at or not. “Friendship” only comes in when you do knock the guy unconcious and hold yourself back from continuing hitting or kicking him when he is down. Friendship comes in when he trips and it would be perfect to hit him in the back of his head. The other guys knows when you give him mercy. My friendship is not there when I try to hit Stuart on his shin and thrust James’ mid-section as hard as I can. This would be counter-productive and truly “cheating” ourselves. >Yes you really do agree with me since my post is all about the same >issue. We just do not have a mutual >understanding of terms such >as "full contact and fighting". No, you should have read my post better. >Where is the surprise? The dark alley? The slippery uneven concrete? >The stairs? The trash can? Fighting >comes in many contexts most of >which involve surprise, ambush, lapse of awareness, unfortuitous >posturing. If Animal is on this list lets hear from the street >fighter. It looks like you are confused with what is fighting, ambush, assassination, and street survival. We are talking obviously talking about 1 on 1 stickfighting between 2 people. When you train in class, do you set all the lights off and wet the floor? Do you prepare to do a box drill with someone while three guys(that Guro I didn't tell you about) are ready to hit you on your leg? Or do you practice your defense against angle 1 and 2? Doing your drills will prepare you for street fights more than the full contact stickfighting with minimal gear? I have been in streetfights involving weapons 3 against 3 and others. I feel that intense training is what helped me in the situation. Me and the toher two knuckleheads that I hang with all know our part on the street. We all know what part we play to each other. >One thing I do know with certainty...all the hard sparring full >contact "gloves or no", " headgear or no" is >not "fighting". We are all glad you know this, because it seems like everybody knows this. Step into the ring with Mike Tyson though and find out how “boxing” is not fighting. I can only speak for FCSH when I say, we carry an open invitation to find out how the full contact sparring is not fighting and "unrealistic". >However, if you spend your time learning what it is like to be hit >(and to hit) you loose the concept that >Eskrima is a blade art. Since when is eskrima/escrima a blade art? I think the term that we re using here is “Stickfighting”. Since when do the Philippine Fighting Arts limit itself to only one face? Sticks, swords, staffs, spears, etc., etc. all have its place and time. We are talking about stickfighting here in an always evolving culture and art. I think the term we use is "Full Contact Stickfighting in Hawaii", not "Full Contact Kali/Arnis/Eskrima in Hawaii". Don't the DB say "DB Real Contact Stickfighting". >Not only is blocking important, but it is very well the most important >thing of all. Is it? In who’s eyes? Everyone is different. Saying blocking is the most important thing of all is like saying close range is the most important range of all. What of the long range fighters that prefer evasion and hit? Now let’s say, just for your sake, that blocking is the most important thing of all, how do you expect to block in a real fight if you don’t actually do it in real time? Well we can really fight or we can try full contact sparring with our “friends”. Friends of mine BTW, have a knack to try and hit me with all their strength. They are not thinking of my welfare when they are trying to hit my hand, knee, and foot. And vice versa, that is not my concern. I want to hit them. Period. Now the “Friendship” comes in when you hit the guy and knock him unconscious. That is when you stop and do not kick him when he’s down. Friendship comes in when one guy says "stop" and puts his hands up. That is where we do not fool ourselves into thinking that this is some "death match". >But I do not delude myself into thinking it will make me a better >fighter if I do it every week. I stand deluded then, because I guarantee it has made and continues to make me a better fighter. Might not make you, but it has for me. >Anyone can easily fall into the stick mindset; "I'll take this blow to >the leg because I can get him in the >hand on my counter-strike." I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think it is a popular strategy for the full contact people to do this. If it is for some, than so be it. Remember we are talking about "stickfighting". I actually do not enjoy getting hit. My personal strategy is to hit as hard and as fast, and as many times as possible without getting hit. >What ever excuse you have, to used the protection gear, is a false >training to me. And what of using false intentions? If your partner is not hitting at you in real speed, time, and power, isn't that "false" training as you stated? As Stuart stated earlier, one can say that they will do such and such if someone does this, but can you do it? I think the gear should be used until you learn the timing and distance. The better you get, take off or lighten the gear. We do not do full contact to say how great we are or how we know everything and are now "real" masters. We do it so we can find out what we don't know. What do we need to work on and learn how to do. >Do you know or you even realized that training 'Semi Realistic" is not >close to realistic? Your chance is >luck, to survive for real. Semi-realistic??? When Kalani hit me in the temple the last time he was out here, it sure didn't feel "semi"-realistic. I’ve heard a lot of people say that, but never actually fight because of this and that…I feel that if someone that does full contact so good without gear, they should be able to do these types of fights against people with gear and still not get hit. Whenever I fight, I don’t change what gear I use. Whether someone has all the gear or no gear, I believe in myself and fight with just the mask and baseball gloves. I do believe though, that it is alright to “train” with all the gear once in a while, so that you can try things that you may not want to take a hit on. Just so you can see what you are doing wrong or right. >Remember rolled up papers is hurts too, So even the stick is padded >the contact is almost realistic. But no >pad is a must to train. I thought that “semi-realistic” training is not close to realistic.??? Isn't using rolled-up newspaper or padded stick unrealistic??? “Your chance is luck, to survive for real.” Those were your words exactly. I would rather get hit with a rolled up newspaper no gear than get hit with real sticks using the gear we use. We have even had a fractured hand through a hockey glove. >All in all, neither approach is wrong or right. The debate on sparring >vs. no sparring is a matter of >preference and goals. Some people get >in to MA for social reasons some for exercise, an unfortunate >number >for fad or movie reasons and a rare few for true combative >effectiveness. If you look at a map >you will find there are many ways >to get to the same point. It just depends on your driving prefs. I believe that is exactly what the original post was about. Where does the student want to take it. If you want to be a fighter, well…you fight. You want to be a dancer(as Arlan put it), then dance. I said it before, and I’ll say it again… ”Practicing alone will not make you a fighter, and fighting will not make you a <>. ===== Check out our web page at http://www.fullcontacthi.com and visit Chad's Corner-Full Contact Stickfighting in Hawaii. "What one man would or would not do, does not mean another man should or should not do."-Me as Myself Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Steve Yarnall (ATT)" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:17:43 -0400 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #265 Dave & Heather, Congratulations on the birth of your son. Sounds like all are doing well (except for the lack of sleep, it's been a long time since I've experienced that but I do remember). Your friend in the arts, Steve - ------------------------------ From: "Dave & Heather Fulton" Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:59:55 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Off Topic Announcement I'm sorry for the delay in the following, but life's been crazy lately. I'm proud to announce that on May 11th my wife gave birth to our son, Mark David Fulton. He was born at 11:25 pm and was 7lb, 10.75 oz and 22 inches long. Everyone is doing fine, including our 3yr old daughter (Carlyn) who is adjusting well (so far) .... though we could all us a little more sleep ;o) Thanks! Dave Fulton. ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:25:49 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Presas - Reply to Digest 258 > From: tenrec > Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:19:43 +0100 > Subject: eskrima: presas bros n stuff > > On the Remy/Ernesto Presas thread: > > My memory is sketchy, by I do recall that the term "Modern Arnis" was > around in the mid-to-late sixties. Again if I am not mistaken, it was > the name emblazoned on a building near the corner of Quiapo and Recto > streets (you couldn't miss it)...well that and Arjukenbo. I do have > it on good authority that Ernesto Presas handled most (if not all) of > the P.E. Arnis classes at the Universtiy of the Phil. in the early > '80's, along with Willie (Madla I think)...and their curriculum was > the same as was found in Remy Presas' Modern Arnis book, without > deviation AFAIK. Hi, you are right., Ernestos school used to be on 744 Quiapo Boulevard. It was also the ARJUKEN (ARnisJUdoKENdo) Karate Headquarters . It burned down sometime 10 years ago or so and he reopened somewhere else (after my time with him). Reading Remys book of 1974, of course the name Modern Arnis could have been around in the 60ies. In the 80ies, of course Ernesto handeled the Arnis-teaching at the different Universities like Universtiy of the Philippines, Lyceum, University of St. Thomas etc, because Remy left the Philippines in the mid 70ies (I think 1975). Thats is ment with " Ernesto took over from Remy". Remy has an university degree in physical education. In 1968 he was invited by Col. Arsenio Borja, secretary of the Philippine Amateur Athletics Federation (PAAF) and Director of the National College of Physical Education, Mr. Philip Moncerrat, former President of the PAAF and Prof. Jose Gregorio to come from Bacolod/Negros Occidental to Manila, to teach his Modern Arnis there at different universities, because Manila was the place, where interest from the whole country could be drawn. Remy moved to Manila in 1969 to teachhis Modern Arnis there. When Remy left in mid of the 70ies, these classes still had to be taught and thats where Ernesto took over. > Question for Herr Datu Knuettel: > > When were the "Datu" titles first used (what year?) Well I don´t know. I think I am the wrong person to ask, because I am the youngest Datu, I became the title in June 1996. All I can say is, that I bought videos end of the 80ies with "Datu Shishir Inocalla" and I think Kelly Worden´s Datu title is also from the mid 80ies. So it must be at least 15 years old. I know nothing about Rick Journales title (Tim Hartman, any info from you here?). For example Rocky must have been around with Remy at that time, perhaps he or some others can give better details regarding dates. I also don´t know, if Remy used the title already in the Philippines. I don´t think so though. But it would be interesting to hear from somebody who was there at that time. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet must have been there at that time on the Philippines. Was the title used there too by people in the Modern Arnis? There is no reference to Datu in the book of 1974. And neither Willie Madla, nor Rodel Dagoog or Roland Dantes used this title. And as far as I know, these 3 were some of the closest persons to Remy when he was still in the Philippines early 70ies. Any more input from anybody? Best regards from Germany Dieter - -- Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions E-Mail: dk@abanico.de Internet: http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative Internet: http://www.modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #266 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.