From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #268 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 30 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 268 In this issue: eskrima: Memorial Day eskrima: On another note... eskrima: FC final words eskrima: Re: Contact Sparring vs. Fighting eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 eskrima: Inosanto Seminar in Miami eskrima: Remy Presas & Sweden eskrima: Full Contact Thread eskrima: tv show stuff eskrima: Master Dong Cuesta seminar in Colorado eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 eskrima: Congrats Heather and Dave! eskrima: Re: Estalilla Kabaroan Seminar in So. Cal eskrima: ED V7 #266, Modern Arnis Datus eskrima: sparring and so forth eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #266 eskrima: back home ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roan Kalani Grimm Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:55:28 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Memorial Day Just a little note to wish all a safe and happy Memorial Day. But let's not forget the true purpose of this day ... to remember those fallen in battle/service to their country. So to all veterans, guardsmen/women, reservists, LEO's, and others who have sacrificed, in action/combat or peace, thank you. Semper Fi, Roan Kalani Grimm P.S. Travis ... a special salute to you, devil dog, and all you other, former or current, Leathernecks. ------------------------------ From: Roan Kalani Grimm Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:10:27 -0600 Subject: eskrima: On another note... Wow, I unhook my computer to move for a week or so and look at all the fun I miss. I've enjoyed reading some of the posts and have to throw in my 2 cents. Speaking of the debate about "fighting/full-contact" etc., I have to say that drilling DOES NOT make one a formidable fighter. Under Datu, Chad, James and I all drilled and trained and practiced A LOT. But (and no disrespect intended to the boys), I KNEW I could kick the tar out of James or Chad whenever I wanted simply because all they did was drill and train and practice, but they never FOUGHT (sparred, whatever). But now that they regularly go out there and test themselves in a "real-contact" arena, I have no illusions about picking them apart at will. It has brought a whole new painfully good edge to their abilities. They have delivered shots to my body that I do not enjoy, nor do I wish to allow again. And I am glad they have chosen to do so (even though I was in a lot of pain as a direct result). And in reply to whomever posted about "forgetting that eskrima is a blade art." I have never forgotten that there is a blade element to the art. However, I don't regularly walk around with a machete or sword and so my main emphasis (at least right now) is on the non-edged weapon dimension of the art. And if you think that because you train exclusively for a bladed encounter that you'll be able to pick off anything coming your way, you are sadly mistaken. More likely than not, you WILL get cut, and if you don't train to continue and attack after "Wow, I'd probably die from this thrust", then you won't even get the satisfaction of taking your opponent down with you. God forbid, if I'm ever in an encounter where it truly is "kill or be killed" and I die, I at least hope I'll be able to take the S.O.B. who did me in with me to heaven (knock-on-wood ;-) Anyway, that's all for now while I head off to work. As always, peace, respect and an open mind. Aloha, Roan Kalani Grimm "We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best is he who is trained in the severest school." - --Thucycdides ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 18:14:51 -0700 Subject: eskrima: FC final words > Err...so Doc what is your definition of fighting? > > Regards, > Travis Travis, "I" think fighting is when you have malice and intent to commit bodily harm. It is when you take advantage of a man who is down so that he does not get up again...maybe ever. While it may involve two guys squaring off with equal tools, it often involves one person ambushing or taking advantage of another with surprise attack or help from others. Chad starts: > Oh Boy, did I do that? I respond Chad, "Did I do that"? > This was directed torward me: > >No you are better at putting together what you have learned in a > >controled sparring arena perhaps with >gear like a fencing mask. You > >do this with friends and there is no malice towards your sparing > >partners. > You have no authority to speak of what I am better at or not. Gee, I thought the original thread came from you. Anyway the object here is not to get you hot. This is an acedemic discussion of the merits of FC. If you think what you are doing is the "way" to enlightenment etc.. so be it. That is your path. I have not told you what you are "better at" specifically like I know all about you. Certainly that is not my intent. I know nothing about you at all. Lets repharse. To use an analogy lets say you train swimming in a pool. You swim marathon miles. Your competition is in the ocean with a current. Does swimming in a pool help? Yes. Does the waves and current exert an effect? Probably. Could those waves and current cost you a win? Maybe. That's it. >When you train in class, > do you set all the lights off and wet the floor? Well almost all the lights off, pretty damn dark anyway. Been there done that. Fought out of the bathroom etc... That is standard environmental training. >Doing your drills will prepare you for > street fights more than the full contact stickfighting with minimal > gear? Yes and No. You can think of the FC as wargames to a high level but it is not war. Regardless of the level of contact you have to appreciate the environment and many other factors. Wet grass makes it pretty hard to kick full out upon. Darkness obscures depth perception. Clothes worn and objects carried reduce your mobility etc. > "boxing" is not fighting. I can only speak for FCSH when I say, we > carry an open invitation to find out how the full contact sparring is > not fighting and "unrealistic. I'll make a last statement on this thread. Been there done that. Still do that but less often. I'm old 40 now and body parts take longer to heal. With that I'll leave with paraphrasing from someone most can respect. Guro R. Bustillio one of the most physically intense guys around basically believes you can only beat your body for so long. Then you have to work smarter not harder. That may be the key to longevity in the martial arts. YMMV. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:29:47 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Contact Sparring vs. Fighting Eric writes: > Just my 2 cents. Here's mine. "Sparring" is a training exercise where you try out what you know under stress. The better you are, the more closely it approximates reality. There are rules and constraints for safety and to allow you to concentrate on what you need to work on at that time. "Fighting" is when Manly Men (tm) stand up in front of other Manly Men (tm) and batter each other into unconsciousness for dominance and breeding rights. There is a complex hierarchy of rules that depends on things like the relationship between the fighters, the severity of the fight, what's at stake and a bunch of other things. Pray that you have the same understanding of the rules as the other guy. Funny story that way. A friend of mine lives in a really bad part of Portland. I've seen kids and teenagers fighting pretty often around his place. More than once they said "No mommas" before they really got started. Translated: "We are going to beat the hell out of each other. Maybe we'll cut each other up. But we're civilized men, so it would be going over the line to insult anyone's mother. That just isn't done." "Self Defense" is doing whatever you have to to get home alive and in one piece. There are no rules. > Before I started FMA, I trained with BJJ'ers that had a Jeet Kune Do > influence. They trained hard all of the time. Well, here are two stories > that both support Full Contact Sparring as a great training vehicle. I agree. Totally. But there are a few things to keep in mind. You have to calibrate the level of sparring to what you are trying to do. There are times when all out intensity is what you need to develop. There are other times when you need to back off so to work on technique and skill. If you have technique without emotional intensity you are dead. If you have intensity without skill, or so says my Silat teacher who used to be a Green Beret, you are a Marine [apologies to all Marines out there]. It's easier to do full contact sparring with grappling than with striking. There is no safe way to fracture someone's pubic bone and rupture their urethra and bladder. You just can't elbow full out to the the back of the head and cervical spine in practice or can-opener the head and drive your thumb into someone's eye. > First: A friend of mine was out at a bar where fighting doesn't normally > take place, but some drunkard started harrassing his girl. So they started > fighting outside. My friend did a perfect double leg takedown and pummeled > his opponenttill the guy gave up his back. My friend preceeded to choke him > unconscious, and as soon as he got up, his opponents buddy took him down > where my friend achieved guard and broke the guys arm. He was able to > handle this because during our full contact sparring we trained this > senario. > Second: A fellow student got into a fight in a bar while out of town. He > did everything that he did in full contact training. He was dominating the > fight until the guy tapped. The student had a momentary pause because of > his training. During that pause the guy on the ground called to a friend to > help him. This friend then clubbed the student on the back of the head with > a pool cue. They then beat him to within an inch of his life. He lost an > eye, and the doctors told us it was a miracle that he was alive. Your first friend acted as if he was in a fight for his life. He took his techniques to completion. Locks are really breaks. Chokes are for making a guy unconscious. The whole point is to incapacitate, not "win". Your second friend, I'm sorry to say, was practicing the sport of NHB competition. His training had ingrained the rules, and he followed them. The other guys weren't playing by the rules. Todd ------------------------------ From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:44:11 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 > > << )Training in Martial arts has always (mostly) been a way to organize the > most winning ways of fighting, the losers didn't have much to teach. >> > > dont think that's true - many fighters have won becuase of thier owm abilites > - - no matter how much i train to be just like bruce lee, i dont have his > physical attributes, and therefore i can never be as successful as him, using > his techniques - no matter how many train like hickson, there's only one > hickson - do you think you could drive a nail in you foot then into the > ground and win fights the way illustrisimo did? - on the other side of the > coin how great of a fighter was angelo dundee? just cause someone might not > have the physical attributes to make him a warrior - doesnt mean he cant be a > great teacher - makes me think of napolean - i'm pretty sure that he wouldnt > fair well in a fist fight - but sure could teach you how to win a war- > > steve I'm not sure what you're saying. My point was that they all, fighters or trainers, did or taught techniques that worked. They knew they worked because they had been proven in fights. What would be the point of passing on something that lost the fight? If there had been no fighting to test, how would you know? (I believe Napoleon died a loser) Arlan ------------------------------ From: JDClan57@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:42:45 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 This is in response to Jerry Bikendova's post regarding Bruce Lee and the reality of fighting. In this post you stated that Bruce "really never addressed weapons at all." If that's the case, then what did he do with Dan Inosanto for 9 years?? Plus the mere fact that the core of JKD's footwork comes from Fencing (a weapons art by the way) tells me that there is no basis for your statement. It wouldn't take more than about 5 minutes of studying Bruce's philosophy to realize that he would be the first person pick up a weapon if he felt that the situation called for it. I would be willing to bet that Bruce was proficient with weapons that we've never even heard of. It might be wise to do a little research next time to avoid making such embarassing statements. ------------------------------ From: tcsno@mciworld.com Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:27:42 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Inosanto Seminar in Miami Dan Inosanto will be at a seminar hosted by Dwight Woods in Miami on June 3/4. I hope the South Florida gang will be there to start associating, swapping business cards, email addresses, and war stories. I hope I can see Al Sardinas, Rick Hernandez, and GatPuno Abundio Baet. Maybe some lurkers will be there. See you then, Tom Furman tcsno@mciworld.com ------------------------------ From: "tim hartman" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:51:13 PDT Subject: eskrima: Remy Presas & Sweden Greetings, I just got back from the Viking Spirit Kenpo Camp in Sweden wear I was a guest instructor. It was a blast. One of the sessions I got to teach was at night in a park in a ring of lit torches. At the end of the we all participated in viking games including ax throwing. I have just caught up on the digests that I have missed. Let me start out by saying I have not agreed with every decision that he has made over the years, but I find it hard to swallow that he would hand out a 5th to a man with only 3 month's of training. I am not calling Guro Abon a liar, but I have a hard time believing that those are all the facts. Even if it was true, this would not be the first grandmaster to promote somebody above their ability. It's easy to make decisions when you hear one side of the story. And no matter how good someone can be, another person can always point a finger and make false allegations. If Professor Presas had the time to baby sit the digest for any accusations made about him, he would be able to defend himself. But as we all know, who have had the opportunity to see his schedule, Professor does more seminars than anyone else in the martial arts field. If you question that fact, check the Can-Am website at the bottom of this letter. People change as the years go on, and as I have seen Professor, his standards have increased over the years. Maybe at the time, he was a little easier with the way he gave out his belts. Whether this be the case or not, your story is seven years old. How accurate is the picture you are painting? I am not trying to pick a fight, but why did you pick now to bring up such an old story? I hope that we can all get on to more productive things on the digest, instead of using this as a place to rind our axes. Yours Truly, Punong-Guro Timothy J.Hartman E-mail wnyima@hotmail.com School site www.wmarnis.com/school/ Federation site www.wmarnis.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Davis" Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:20:41 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Full Contact Thread I've been buried at work for the last two months but I've tried to catch up with the ED. If I might draw a corollary that happened to me recently. I was ordered to attend a driving instructor program a couple of weeks ago (I say ordered because I absolutely have no interest in instructing in same). Anyhow, during the classroom portion the instructor made reference to the fact that in LE more lawsuits and officer deaths (last year this was the first time this happened)occur while the officer is driving than any other LE activity. The remainder of this state designed course, however, was low speed maneuverability oftentimes while the cruiser was in reverse! How does this training relate to the realities of the street? Good question. Officers don't get killed slowly backing out of a parking space. They get killed because they don't train properly (realistically), don't know how to control the fight or flight response during emergency driving and haven't learned or accepted their limitations. Translate this to FC or sparring. If the goal is to learn to control your environment (self-defense) then sparring to some extent is a must. Col.Jeff Cooper's quote goes something like, "you are properly prepared/trained when someone with the intent of hurting/killing you is in more danger from you, than you are from them." With this in mind the question is, "how far are you willing to take it?" If Arlan, Marc, Eric or Chad are willing to take it as far as they can, I will read their "research" watch their tapes, etc... and attempt to learn what I can. As for me, the body heals slower and "safer" sparring is in order (although Suro Inay's and Guro Hart's aluminum blades can hurt like hell!) Stress inoculation is certainly necessary. For instance, in LE we are using Simunitions (marking cartridges that require the officers/badguys to wear protective gear--NOT paintballs) in an attempt to prepare our officers for gunfights. As Guro Inay has said many paths... Regards, KD PS- Steven Pressfield (Gates of Fire) has a new book out, "Tides of War" I haven't started it yet because it will be my vacation book! PSS- I was steered towards FMA a number of years ago because of it's realism and ability to teach sound combat concepts quickly. Myself and my LE students have benefited from FMA tremendously! As Suro Inay says regarding the combat effectiveness of FMA, "there is still blood on the blade." - KD ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 03:19:02 +0100 Subject: eskrima: tv show stuff Mr. Pellicer wrote: In the Mid 80's I hosted a fitness show on TV and he was one of the invited guests, introed him as "Master" he Which show was this? Was it a regular series and on what channel? (Inquiring minds want to know!) tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: steve wolk Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:31:29 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Master Dong Cuesta seminar in Colorado For those in the Colorado area, PIMA Denver will be hosting Master Dong Cuesta for a seminar in the Doce Pares System of Filipino Eskrima. The seminar will be Saturday, June 24th 12noon-5:30pm at the World Karate Center in Aurora, Colorado (corner of Parker and Orchard). The seminar will cost $45. Master Cuesta has 30 years experience in Doce Pares system, and is the highest ranking student of GM Diony Canete in the United States. He has also trained extensively under GM Momoy Canete and GM Cacoy Canete. Master Cuesta' seminars have been reviewed on this list previously, mainly by Jason Silverman's group in Boston. For more information on the seminar, please contact me at "swolk@mho.com". Hope to see you there. Steve Wolk ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:02:12 +0100 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #267 Hey its my birthday so I didn't need cheering up or anything And then I read this mail! If it had been a bad day you would have lightened it up for me mate! pat carefree Web site * www.amag.fsbusiness.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: "Jerry Bikendova" Subject: eskrima: Re: Dr. Fung and Sigung Lee Plenty of Bruce Lee quotations from Dr. Fung. I wonder if Bruce himself wanted the title "sigung," which of course would make him a hypocrite of sorts, or if it just his followers who insist on deifying him. But more to the point, what the heck does Bruce have to do with any discussion on the reality of fighting? We are talking about a guy who basically never fought, did a bunch of kickboxing type sparring with huge pillow gloves and headgear, and really never addressed weapons at all. This is funny even if you are actually serious. You are being serious arent you or just trying to wind it up a bit? ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #266 makes me think of napolean - i'm pretty sure that he wouldnt fair well in a fist fight - but sure could teach you how to win a war- sorry steve, still pissing myself with the one above ...um could also teach you how to lose the whole campaign as well ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Virginia Martial Arts" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:39:37 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Congrats Heather and Dave! Congrats Heather and Dave on number 2! You'll be surprized what an expert you have become since number 1. All the best to mom and baby. Dale ------------------------------ From: Ronald.Reekers@HSC.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:30:59 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Estalilla Kabaroan Seminar in So. Cal Grand Master Estalilla will be conducting a 2 day Kabaroan Eskrima Seminar this Weekend (June 3rd and 4th) When: June 3rd, Saturday, 1:30pm to 6:30pm; June 4th, Sunday 11:00am to 5:00pm Where: The Thunder Center, 11533 Slater Unit #F, Fountain Valley, Ca. 92708 Cost: $45 per day, $80 for both days This is a rare opportunity to learn the Filipino Martial Art of Kabaroan Eskrima, "all taught in the context of Philippine history and culture. A cultural approach to FMA humanizes the art, civilizes the artist and refines the system." Please Call (714)435-0825 Ron Reekers http://thundercenter.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:47:48 GMT Subject: eskrima: ED V7 #266, Modern Arnis Datus > >From: "Jonathan Broster" >Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 16:51:14 GMT >Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis Datus > >I am sorry to return to the subject of who is or is not a Datu in modern >arnis, but I just attended a very enjoyable seminar with Remy Presas hosted >by David Hoffman. > >They were selling Modern Arnis UK t-shirts with the IMAF logo and "Datu >David Hoffman" on them, so he obviously thinks that he is. According to a source from the UK, David Hoffman was awarded the title in 1993 and only recently begun to use it. I doubt that he would have tee-shirts printed with the title for a seminar with the system GM if the title claim were in fact, bogus. EBrook ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "jbrooks" Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: sparring and so forth MA training v. fighting –how hard is it to see the distinction? Training seems to be about developing reflexes. Is there really any other purpose? You could think about it at different levels, but it comes down to programming reactions, doesn’t it? Perhaps the discussion can move beyond refusal to recognize alternate definitions. I’ve seen "fights" in the dojo which entailed heavily padded persons punching air. I’ve also had people (ok, girls) holding me by the hair and kicking my head while I worked on a guy below. I see a difference. I’ve needed stitches after sparring barehanded with people much better than I (and most people are.) But I’ve also been surrounded by some really nasty people who hesitated only because of a ratchet handle destined for the first one in. Again, that ‘difference’ thing becomes apparent. I would contend that an adolescence spent getting whacked in the head playing sports is better preparation for being blindsided than duel type sparring. At least the nervous system doesn’t shut things down automatically. But in stumbling out the back door, mostly asleep, and coming face to face with a misguided, emotionally deprived, youthful life member of a fraternal criminal organization playing hide and seek with the local constabulary, I might be found wishing I’d worked coordination in the face to face position harder. The idea being, as many have said, that context is the key. If it’s not, I’d like to hear about it. Happy Gilmore comes to mind- there’s the organized(?) mayhem of playing hockey, and then there’s taking off your skate to slash a guy with it. And for those of you demanding "reality", think back on Lester Hays. Jeff Brooks jbrooks e-mail: jbrooks@fiberia.com +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Get a free web page, e-mail account, calendar and more at | | FIBERIA http://www.fiberia.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:35:28 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #266 <<< Training in Martial arts has always (mostly) been a way to organize the most winning ways of fighting, the losers didn't have much to teach. >>> I would have to disagree with this. In my studies of warfare, whether it was on active duty studying unconventional and conventional warfare, or my studies on other aspects of warfare the loser has much to teach us. They teach us what not to do, what type of techniques and philosophies do not seem to work on certain individuals or countries, and a host of other lessons. We learn from studying both sides of a conflict and trying to see the totality of a conflict. Take care, Rob ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: back home I'm back in sunny Calif, but only to leave again on Friday... Ray ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #268 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.