From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #291 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 13 June 2000 Vol 07 : Num 291 In this issue: eskrima: Knuckles eskrima: Re: vertical punch, etc eskrima: Knuckle alignment eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #290 eskrima: Vertical Punches & Fun w/ Backfists eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #290: knuckles eskrima: Vertical vs karate punch eskrima: Video Update [none] ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:01:19 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Knuckles From Steve Clement: "Ah, come on Mike! Which do you prefer? I wonder if there are any skeletal specialist on the list that could add info. to this??? For me I use finger tips, ANY part of my hand, my elbow, head, knee or just about anything I can find! :) Actually, I have always tried using the first two as a boxing coach once told me they were stronger. This is interesting." OK, but I warned you ;-)... First to qualify: I do not have a title, at least one usable on this digest, nor am I a "skeletal specialist" so following comments represent my opinion, FWIW, and not that of the "management". The first two knuckles of the hand are somewhat stronger, but if used as in TKD etc. the wrist is quite unstable, which may lead to an injury or at least a "power leak". The Wing Chun (and Ned Beaumont's and Jack Dempsey method) using the last three knuckles changes the position of the wrist which is considerably more stable and less likely to leak power and cause injury. Furthermore, one is using one of the two knuckles anyway. Having said that, if one is young and stupid and punches heavy bag this way without proper conditioning and without wrist wraps, one will end up with a hyperflexed wrist and consequent inability to get out of the bath leaning on it, never mind press ups on one's palms. In retrospect I wish someone taught me palm strikes rather than orthodox punches early... The other interesting point is the position of the elbow in a punch, particularly a jab. I believe (as the Wing Chun people do) that the elbow should be vertical and close to the body to avoid another source of "power leak". This results in the fist being vertical rather than horizontal. Note how many boxers with a weak jab have the elbow sticking out at right angles from the body. See Ned Beaumont for identical advice. On the straight right, however, he recommends to twist the fist in the usual manner so the fist is horizontal at impact with the elbow pointing outwards. I am not sure that this is right (FWIW, remember!). I am engaged in a study of videotapes of various boxing fights to see in what position the fist is when the right cross connects causing a KO. So far I can see, most KOs are caused by relatively short punches with the fist vertical or "half-way". Personally I like to keep my fist vertical on the straight right. It may have something to do with the direction on punches: with my size I almost always punch upwards, with a downward trajectory some turning over of the fist is almost mandatory. BTW the "elbows in" punching does require some conditioning. I am always amused when I see someone who can do many press ups with elbows out trying to do them with elbows in, close to the body. But I am sure you knew that... Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: "Jeff T. Inman" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:06:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: vertical punch, etc Hi folks, Whatever the advantages may be for one type of punch or another, my (limited) experience tells me that in the messiness of a real fight, you're probably going to end up breaking your hand on your opponent's forehead or his temple if you try to punch him in the face. If people would stand there and let you punch them nice and clean, we wouldn't need martial arts. There's nothing sissy about a well-delivered "b*tch slap", or a sturdy palm heel to the chin. Plus: you won't have a broken hand afterwards. In either case, you've got to be aware of the other guy's teeth. Regards, Jeff Inman ------------------------------ From: gints@att.net Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:30:51 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Knuckle alignment > From: "Steve Yarnall (ATT)" > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:22:45 -0400 > Subject: RE: eskrima: Re: Knuckles > > I'm not a skeletal specialist, but 26 years in the martial arts and a lot of > time spent doing breaking techniques. You've probably found are the most efficient energy transfer positions for hand strikes from positions that support breaking targets. Whether or not these hand positions involve particular bone alignment remains to be analyzed. > The 'traditional' karate punch using the first two knuckles has always been > my preference. But with qualifications. When executing a punch it is > important to have the first two knuckle aligned such that there is a > straight line between the knuckles, the wrist, and the shoulder. This > alignment prevents adverse impact on the joints and applies maximum power to > the impact point of the punch. This topic is touchy !!!. It's usefyl to pick up an anatomy book and check out the bones without the skin. Let's talk about a few issues: 1) Alignment of the first two knuckles with wrist. The alignment of knuckles, which are points at the end of bones, with your forearm is deceiving. It's more important to look at the alignment of the bones of which the ends are your knuckles. Whether or not individual bones line is probably not as important as the average alignment of all of the fingers involved in a particular strike and how that hand alignment affects the rest of your body. A bizarre hand contortion may line up particular hand bones with forearm bones, but that alignment may reduce the support of the arm and shoulders and the other hand bones. If you "feel up" the long, thin bones in your hand (metacarpals), you'll notice that they radiate from a point in your forearm, yes, slightly past the wrist. Given this radial spread, for any given wrist position, only one bone will be aligned with a forearm bone at a time. Only the index finger and the pinkie fonger can be manipulated to nearly align with the radial bone (forearm bone nearest the thumb) and ulnar bone (forearm bone nearest the the pinkie), respectively. The 3rd and 4th finger bones are attached such that their tips are lie between the lines extended from the forearm bones. So, you can move the 3&4 bones so they are parallel to your forearm bones, but they aren't really aligned because they lie between the forearm bones. 2) What't the purpose of your punch ? If the purpose of your punch is to focus energy on a single knuckle, the most manipulable candidates are the index and pinkie knuckles simply because they only have one knuckle-headed neighbor. > My understanding of the hands bone structure is limited but I do know the > bones aligned with the third and fourth knuckles are at an angle to the > wrist and cannot be aligned as described above. Punching with these Feel them up. You'll notice that the angle changes with the wrist position. > knuckles runs a high risk of breaking the supporting bones and or the wrist. The smaller bones will break first. Larger bones will transmit more energy to a joint. So, the 1&2 knuckled karate punch will transmit more energy to their wrist bones. In my experience with six broken fingers (five from punching), the hand bones will break before the wrist bones. > I don't know about others but I will stay with the first two knuckles method > of punching. I prefer to vary the punch with the job. ------------------------------ From: "Dave & Heather Fulton" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:50:16 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #290 - -----Original Message----- > >From: Ray Terry >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:39:48 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: eskrima: Use of the Wrist in the Vertical Punch & ... > > >"While the traditional twisting punch is the most popular punch in >existence today, some experts (such as Advincula, Anderson, and Dempsy) >and styles (such as Isshin-ryu and Wing Chun) maintain that the vertical >punch is a superior technique. Any discussion concerning the efficacy of >these two techniques should be substantiated by the scientific literature >instead of either idle speculation or anecdotal data. If one takes >an objective look at the scientific data instead of blindly following >tradition, it becomes evident that the vertical punch is a better way of >punching from a biomechanical perspective. > I have experimented with both methods over the years and now use the vertical fist exclusively, for biomechanical reasons. I'm no medical expert, but I know what I get more power from and from discussing the subject with experts, I can understand why. The vertical fist is more conducive to keeping the elbow down which is a better alignment for generating power. Keeping the elbow down also seems (to me) to make that vertical gunting less effective because it rotates that nerve plexus just above the elbow toward your center line making it more difficult to strike. The twisting punch rotates this plexus outward (into the open) exposing it more to attack by the vertical gunting. IMHO of course. Respectfully, Dave Fulton Full Contact Martial Arts Association. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." ------------------------------ From: Buz Grover Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:44:59 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Vertical Punches & Fun w/ Backfists I've done arts that insist on horizontal punching and ones that insist on vertical fists and I find myself almost always using the vertical fist. Think the main reason is that I like backfists and find it's easier to throw them starting from a vertical fist. In particular while sparring I like throwing a vertical jab. I'm pretty gangly, if my opponent slips to my left, I rotate my left shoulder outward while throwing my elbow inward, creating a whipping backfist with which I target the temple. The blow does not have KO power, but it usually elicits a where-the-hell-did-that-come-from reaction. I might then feint a left hammer fist to the other temple and then throw a right cross which, now that I think of it, probably arrives with a horizontal orientation. With that said, I have a hard time imagining that all the variables can be isolated to any point the debate will be deemed settled. Indeed, it strikes me that, like with some questions in physics, the observer affects the observed. Think the bottom line is that the best orientation is the one that causes an opponent to hit the pavement. Indeed, I had something of a FMA epiphany the other day. I realized no one has ever given me grief about fist orientation, about thumb placement (I favor an outside the index finger thumb placement, rather than an under the knuckle one), nor had anyone drilled me on how to make a fist at all. When I bring something outside the curriculum in while sparring, no one accuses me of apostasy; the only techniques criticized are ineffective or poorly executed ones. It's easy to forget how adamantly some orthodoxies are embraced. Asked a traditional weapons instructor a while back if I could cross train and try some light sparring with my sticks; he looked at me like I suggested he dance naked on the table with a rose stem up his butt. Thank goodness for the FMA and thank goodness for forums like this. Regards, Buz Grover ------------------------------ From: Powrscrol@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:18:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #290: knuckles From Steve Williams Sorry, I'm not familiar with how to send email to this digest format. I've been lurking for a couple months, but would like to contribute to this thread. It's funny, but we just had this discussion (which punch, which knuckles, etc.) in the Cyberdojo list. To be perfectly honest, I've never really understood the boxing punch. But, after 40+ yrs. in the Oriental arts, I've used all the others. I've found that, when using the vertical or 3/4 twist punch, although natural contact is on the 1st 2 knuckles, FOCUS is on the index knuckle. This keeps wrist flexion to a minimum. If focus is on the 1st 2, there's more flexion. The wrist is further locked in by straightening the end of the index finger and curling the thumb over the joint next to the nail. With the Wing Chun vertical punch, INITIAL impact is on the surface of the fist even with the 2nd knuckle (if the index is considered the 1st). Secondary contact is made by the surface even with the bottom 2, as the fist is locked upward. They don't receive initial impact, which would expose them to fracture. This secondary contact is for creating a shock wave into the target area -- AFTER initial impact is made (depending, of course, on what the target area is). With a throat punch, the top of the fist would lift the chin while the bottom would penetrate the throat. No problem with damaging your bottom knuckles on this soft target. Solar plexus is another good target for this punch. For some people, the Wing Chun fist alignment (down the forearm to the bottom 2 knuckles with secondary impact) is easier & more natural. Dynamics are different from the other punches. I don't have a preference; to me, the target determines the fist. Hope I didn't speak out of turn here, since I'm not a FMA practitioner (mostly Kenpo). ------------------------------ From: RAY CRAIG Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:09:45 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Vertical vs karate punch I have been in martial arts for almost 40 years. My first style was Mas Oyama style that relied on a well conditioned fist. I also now study Kung Fu San Soo and Kali. Over the years I have seen the fist argument over and over and over again by some with little knowledge of the subject, and some highly trained in various arts. The intellectual argument is a waste of time, done mostly by individuals who would rather talk than train. If I punch to the chest with the classic karate punch, the middle knuckles of my fingers make contact first and buckle my wrist (I have long fingers), so for this area I would use a vertical fist. The karate punch works fine to the pelvis. To the side of a the jaw I would use a hammerfist or 1-knuckle punch behind the jaw. There is no need to argue the physics of these 4 strikes. Just hit something and see if it works. Each one is just another tool, another way to strike. Like any tool, you only need to know what each is used for, then practice with it. If you don't like it, don't use it. Ray ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Video Update There are a total of 10 videos up on the web site now. 8 of them were just put up plus the two we had up already. ===== Check out our web page at http://www.fullcontacthi.com for Full Contact Stickfighting in Hawaii. "What one man would or would not do, does not mean another man should or should not do." Chad Hawaii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #291 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.