From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #416 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 26 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 416 In this issue: eskrima: Stickfighting Arts???/Kali??? eskrima: Erik Paulson eskrima: Re: blades eskrima: re: LiveBlade Training eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #415 eskrima: Thrusts eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:53:23 EDT Subject: eskrima: Stickfighting Arts???/Kali??? Gary, Who are you to claimed that the Kali is the oldest weaponry arts in Philippine? You are not even Filipino, I want to tell you, we have 70 different dialect in the Philippines, you can't even speak one of them, are you?? So there's no point or reason for you to push it that the Kali is the oldest weaponry arts in our native land. Its insulting, why because I don't even understand up to now what really the meaning of Kali. Some Visayan say came from Indian Goddess of distraction, some say came from word Kalis, not sure. Only I know this is Visayan Martial arts. So claim at Visayan oldest Weaponry arts. I think that will be better and No comments. << One question for the about topics, oldest or not is it that really important ? May be there are different styles of the Philippine Martial Arts existing at the same period of time, Kali may be one of the oldest, but we both not sure, aren't we? GP. You are not sure, but I know that not the oldest art, the oldest art is the art of Luzon is the Lumad, by Aetas and Mangyans the oldest tribes there is in the Philippines. Again, maybe have different name in other tribes. Sri Visjaya is came on 13th century, the Aetas existence in the Islands Philippines is way back in early 5th Century. >> And with referring the my little knowledge (As a foreign >> practicioner), "Kali" is a word and it also a concept, the word "Kali" >>doen't mean only Blade, Stick, it also included Mano Mano (Empty hand >>techniques) and some other weaponary as well. I hope this explaination >>can be accepted. Furthermore, if we look at the history of man kind, the >>first weapon we use is "Stone" for Hitting or throwing and a "Stick" or a >>"piece of wood from the tree"for hitting, this exists far more earlier that >>spears, bow and arrow, >>rope etc this sort of "processed handmade tools". GP. My friends, vine rope is not the plastic rope, that you are thinking, this is made out of rattan, strong vines, bamboo etc, The Aetas and Manyans are not as innocent as you think. They have their own Calendar, They have their own Alphabets. In facts they found a 25,000 years old copper plates in my provinces with inscription on it and the only one can translate is the Mangyans among the natives tribes. This is strong evidence that the existence of this indigenous people is more than the earliest records. >> Since a piece of wood drop from the tree is a ready hand tools for hunting >>and self defense. If we agree with this concept, (please forgive me, I am >> not a human studies expert), than it really matches with a "Stickfighting" >>concept, and Kali included Stickfighting, as a result, if we say >>"Kali"(conceptually) is the oldest style of Philippine Weaponary art, it >> matches with the progress of Human Being in use of tools. GP. I totally dis-agree with you on this, it might make sense to you not to me, why. Because your instructor told you that is the oldest arts? And you believed him? Well, on that case, that self justification is not, accepted. Kali is not even accepted by a lots of Filipino Masters as the term as the mother of the Filipino arts, how could you claimed this such a thing? You are not even Filipino to make such a claimed. To understand the arts, study the arts, to understand the history, then study the history. If you don't do of this you are just an empty tin can, rolling on the ground of gravel, noisy because is empty. Try to fill this can and roll it again, and you will find the sound is quieter that the empty can. >> Actually, I am pin-pointing on "Filipino Stickfighting"(as at above >>paragraph) not "Filipino Martial Art", of course I am looking at a small >>picture of the art. GP. Is that Kali that you claimed is the art of the Blade? Well, when the blades become stick its should not called Kali anymore. Its should be Visayan word, OLISI or baston, or Garrote, etc. Kali is refers as the blades, at least, that what they claimed. In so many Visayan history of Filipino Martial arts. >> However, nowadays, if we talk about "Street Fight" using Filipino Weaponary art, it seems "Stick art" is more easier to use than " Blade art". Since "Blade Art" use lots of "Slashes" & "Cutting", but "Stick art" uses lots of "Hitting". If in a street fight situation, you are most likely to pick up a tool from the street to use for the fight, like a piece of wood, wasted water pipe, mod stick or some other things the shape is similar to a "Stick" and without a "sharp Blade", as a result, you need to apply "Hitting" technique in order to deliver a powerful strike. If you use a piece of wood without a "sharp >> Edge" to deliver "Slashes" or "Cutting", it won't have an effective damage. >> Again, I am foucing on "Street Fight" using Filipino Weaponary art, not >>"Filipino Martial Art" as a whole. Of course, in a street fight, everything >> goes. I am just making an assumption in using the "Weaponary" only. GP. Again, You are looking the arts small portion, the arts of stickfighting cant separates from the other art help, like sikaran, Panuntukan, etc. its package. Example, What if your opponent hold your weapon arm and you lost your weapon, or you cant swing the stick, are you going to rely only on the stick techniques. Off-course not duh! duh!? Especially you are talking about Street Fights, using weaponry. You are not sure how many strikes could you do before your opponent can grab and control you weapon hand. What you going to do, you going to tell me hit him in the head, body, legs, anywhere, how? If you are totally control your weapon. So again, look back and don't separates the other arts includes them to your stickfighting arts. On my experienced is take only one-second to get it inside your range and take you there with multiple attack with variety of hand, feet, elbow strikes. So think it again my friends. Just reminding you. >>This is why I write to the digest, the digest is for us to discuss and find >>out the truth, if we know everything, we no need to discuess, we discuess is >>beacuse we what to know more. GP.This is why answering your post, and question, to tell you the truth and nothing but the truth my friend Gary. On my experience, I can tell you this. We are not here to tell the truth only, we are also here to find the mistake, that been done and we are still doing. You are totally right if we are perfect we should not be part of this digest, I know the facts, everyone here is open, to advice and answering your question. Some of us give a positive response and some of us give negative response. So if you are not ready for this. As a Chef by Profession, "If you cant take the heat get out from the Kitchen!". Or you can just received what is good, and discard the rest, no hard feelings. Again, go back and continues training, this time do it harder? Gumagalang ng Lubos/with all respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: rob pugh Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Erik Paulson Erik Paulson has losses to Kenny Monday, Matt Hume, Carlos Newton and one other (I think). But in title fights as the Shooto light heavy champion he is undefeated since approx. 1996. I think his overall record in mma is about 9-4, his last fight a victory over Ronald Jhun in a Superbrawl event in Hawaii last year. I really enjoy watching Erik's fights and hope he fights again soon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:25:33 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: blades "Steven C. Drape" : >> There are similarites and differences with the blade. The >blade can allow >> sloppy footwork and sloppy >> power application just like and idiot can pull a trigger. > > Of course the blade can be used sloppily, but the consequences are not as > extreme as if one is using a stick. > My point is that proper use of a blade tends to be less active, less acrobatic > than a stick. I think it varies a lot. The teeny tiny bits I've seen of Indian martial arts and Krabi Krabong can be pretty, umm, exuberant. Of course, as you say, the consequences of flailing around stupidly are more immediately dangerous. The Dog Brothers have shown us that you can get whacked pretty hard with a stick quite a few times and keep going. Just one or two cut tendons or big blood vessels can ruin your whole day. > Most slashing blades are curved a la the saber and the katana, while the > majority of Filipino blades that I have seen are straight. Again, there is a lot of variation. Looking over our chest of Filipino weapons I see a lot of barongs, piraas, krises, and similar. Except for the kampilans most of the ones that are specifically weapons rather than general purpose tools sometimes used for fighting are curved. Likewise, I've seen a lot of Japanese swords and a fair number of sabres of various sorts. Most have noticeable curves, but not as much as popular imagination would lead one to believe. > Thrusts and chops > are much more common than large slashing motions. > Large slashing motions can cause more damage, but also opens more doors in the > user's defense. A fighter well-versed in parries and deflections will be able > to close and finish against the large slashing motions. Those types of attacks > are more commonly seen in fighting from horseback or in heavy armor, where > closing with the opponent is not productive or possible. The best Kendoka I've ever seen used large movements and despised the "ticky ticky shit" of Association sport Kendo. They also had superb timing and appreciation of distance and were masters of seeing an opportunity and seizing on it without hesitation. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:50:41 -0500 Subject: eskrima: re: LiveBlade Training The subject of live blade training comes up on the list every six months or so.. The messages might be phrased as: I have in the past....I'm starting it.....or I will in the future. I've been a member of the list for years, but my previous mail server kept giving me problems in posting.....so I'll try delurk now that I have a new web server and try to contribute to the list a little more. I want to give caution to those in the categories of: starting or want to start training with live blades. All of the weapons martial arts will at some point delve into live blades. Over the years I've had good friends with minor to debilitating scars from using live blades in training or demonstrations. I consider myself luck to literally survive some of my own stupid mistakes with live blade and still earn a living. Let me give three really short examples. I have a number of other stories on the subject...everyone else that's trained with live blades can do the same. Last years, while assisting Hock Hockheim with a demonstration in Virginia I stabbed Hock in the forearm with an "almost live" blade (dulled - slightly, with a slightly rounded tip. As I thrust at him at about 3/4 speed, one of us screwed up and I stuck the blade in his arm by over an inch. IF I had been using a live blade, Hock probably would have ended his career during at that seminar. Last October, while clearing brush behind my house with a very sharp machete I nearly severed the end of my middle finger while cleaning up after the job. The result: a loss of feeling in the end of my middle finger - my typing has slowed down and I've lost an important "feeler" when working with knives (It hasn't, luckly, effected my stick work). My long term training buddy Tom Barnhart got stiches put in three of his finger after doing a rare live folder demonstration. The person wanted to see it done for the third time and turned the blade will straining to see what happened the first two times. I'll stop there, but you can see a trend. How many times have you accidently hit your training partner or student with a glove, empty hand, foot or stick? I've seen each of these open a cut on the person that required the first aid kit. This is while they weren't even trying to hit each other. I don't care how careful you are, or how slow you go, IT HAPPENS! It also happens when you are working with a razor edged weapon. I know, I know.....chick prefer scars. They also prefer wage-earners. It's a real blast working with live blade, but I'm not so sure that the benefits outweigh the risk. As an instructor, I don't work with students and live blades anymore, it's not worth the liability risk. As a student, I don't want my instructor having a live blade because I/they can make a mistake that can keep me from earning a living for my wife and kids. We long argue with gun-people that a blade can be as dangerous as guns in close-quarters, but you don't see people pointing live guns AT EACH OTHER and practicing their CQC skills. Technology is at the point that using a live blade with a partner isn't needed. If you must, minimally duct tape the live edge, dull the edge slightly, etc. Yes, I swing my live folders and sheath knives in my personal training, but not with a partner. I can live with my own mistake, but fatally cutting/stabbing my training partner/student is unacceptable in my book. The question is: Do the benefits of live blade training outweigh the risk. My answer: NO. Keep training, Jeff Allen drjeffallen@home.com ------------------------------ From: SReiter000@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:26:24 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #415 In a message dated 8/26/00 1:20:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Haven't we seen Erik Paulson defeated? Is it perhaps that he is undefeated in matches within a particular style/organization? >> eric is the undefeated SHOOTO champ - in the nbh fights - he fought as a jkd guy, he was a alternate that was asked to fight when a different "striker" guy couldnt fight - in his fight(s) he wasnt allowed to go to the ground where he is at his best steve ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Thrusts >>This involved faking a thrust and then closing off the attempted >>block. I tried it several times with no result, and finally the >>teacher stopped and asked me what was I doing. He never made any >>response to a thrust, fake or otherwise, because it was no danger to >>him. Stick thrusts do not have enough force behind them to hurt >>anyone seriously enough to be useful. Not a bad idea with the strategy you chose here. It worked on some of the guys back home, then what's wrong with it? You said you used it to fake and get a response to close on, right? I try that tomorrow. ;) So if the guy bites, nothing wrong with that. James and I talked about this a while back. I questioned his thrusting from long range, feeling that it was pointless because with the gear we used, if the guy doesn't get hurt, what do you think it's going to do to someone on the street. He continues to thrust from outside though, and this may only be because of his incredible luck with distance and timing, but I choose not to. James won't get close enough to thrust me for a setup, but some of the new fighters get "disturbed" by it, even though it's survivable. I like thrusting on the inside and from the clinch, in fact I feel it is according with Paul Vunaks tape "Headbutts, Knees, and Elbows" transferred to the stick, "Thrusts, Punyos, and Elbows". So I agree with both of you in parts. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:43:08 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #416 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.