From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #417 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 27 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 417 In this issue: eskrima: venezuelam connection n stuff eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 eskrima: Paulson eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #416 eskrima: Getting Cut/Kali Terms/Types of Hits eskrima: Re : Stickfighting Arts???/Kali??? eskrima: Modern Arnis eskrima: LiveBlade Training eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:37:14 EDT Subject: eskrima: venezuelam connection n stuff << Mr. Animal wrote: >I found several very signficant differences between what he taught and many of the kali forms I >have encountered. What Bruno was doing was seriously non-sport oriented. >From: tenrec >Could you flesh in some details on these differences? >> The one thing that immediately struck me was the strong emphasis on blows following these angles \ | / Not nice slicing actions, but entire bodyweight downward chops that would open you up like Archie Cunningham from Rob Roy ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:08:06 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 > While you can use power slashes with a blade, and go for disabling blows instead of cuts, that method is the exception rather than the rule in FMA. Most slashing blades are curved a la the saber and the katana, while the majority of Filipino blades that I have seen are straight. Thrusts and chops are much more common than large slashing motions. > Large slashing motions can cause more damage, but also opens more doors in the user's defense. A fighter well-versed in parries and deflections will be able to close and finish against the large slashing motions. Those types of attacks are more commonly seen in fighting from horseback or in heavy armor, where closing with the opponent is not productive or possible. Steve, I do not believe this. I am not referring to power slashes. "Large slashing motions" does not equate to proper power transmission. Each practitioneer needs to understand the power transmission attibutes of the weapon at hand. They then need to apply the weapon with the maximum power transmission in concert with these attributes. Each motion "opens more doors" this is exactly the reason why most real fights are seconds long and are ended quickly by telling blows. Finally, you can have significant power transmission with all the standard strikes be they chops, slashes, fillets, thrusts. > Thrusts with a stick, especially a stick used with one hand, are ineffective against an opponent who is in fighting mode- full of adrenaline. > You can get more info on this from anyone who has fought full-contact. I believe, if I remember correctly, there is even a piece in one of the Dog Brothers videos about how ineffective thrusts are Yes, Marc has said this in the past. I do not know if he still believes it. I train this way all the time...thrusts one or two handed are effective when delivered properly just like all other blows. How are you measuring effectiveness in DB? With the gear on and the last 5 gatherings I have watched (great family entertainment I might add my 7 yearold loves to watch) no one has ever been carried out on their shield and only one guy quit from a smashed knee and one guy from a broken hand in dozens of matches so then are all the other countless hits ineffective except right to left blows from a right hander? Hmm.....Thankfully very few train the thrust and even fewer use it. Take that information for what you can do with it. Remember your math and draw your own conclusions. ******Everything works and everything doesn't but never at the same time.***** Regards, C.H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:16:05 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Paulson > Haven't we seen Erik Paulson defeated? Is it perhaps that he is > undefeated in matches within a particular style/organization? > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Ray, I think EP still holds his LT. Heavy shooto title. He has lost matches but I have worked out with him on many occasions and he is one very cool, very sneaky, dangerously knowledgeable guy who can apply like few others. Let me tell you this guy is hot. I credit some of my very favorite tricks to EP. If you have the chance to train with him do it! You will have lots of fun. He is a great teacher who has a unique ability to understand a students shortcomings and come up with great workaround techniques to make you effective. Regards, C.H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:18:13 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 From Marc "A" MacYoung From: Scytale << Do any of the FMA stick techniques translate to a longer blade like the european bastard sword? Or is the weapon different enough to warrant much different footwork, strikes, parries, etc? Obviously the movements cannot remain exactly the same with a heavier, longer blade, but perhaps they can retain the same core like between knife and stick. Anyway, I'm curious to hear from someone who has done both... >> Stick...uh not really. A whole lot of what I have seen as "Advanced sticks" is in fact kind of basic sword. Not in the fact that you have to study it for years and years, but you had better start thinking about this stuff right up front with heavy blades. The physics are totally different than sticks and all of a sudden all that fancy sophisticated stuff either goes totally out the window or becomes real clear for it's purpose. The problem is until you actually meet blade to blade, you won't know which half is really important and which half is BS One of the absolute drop-dead-you-suddenly -realize-you-had-better-start - -doing -it-instead -of -paying -lip-service is footwork. You HAVE to get behind your blade on a block. If you try to just use your arm or try to aim a cut at his arm he will take your head off. As to the emphasis on "defanging the snake" if the guy doesn't just shorten his arc and snap your blade, if you succeed in cutting his hands off his heavy blade still flies forward and either splits your head or cuts your throat. Because of the length, nobody hands you an arm...you have to learn to hide behind your blade. Also, as the technology is significantly different, so is the climate between Europe and the Philippines. While many of the techniques steming from FMA rely on impacting/cutting bare skin or through light clothing, Bastard swords are designed to hack through heavy clothing and armour. In other words you don't just hit with your hips, in Western sword work you use your entire body to crash through his layers of defense. All you have to do to discover the difference is to pick up a pair of sticks and whack on someone wearing a heavy winter jacket before he breaks a bottle over your head. Then pick up an old car jack and instead of swinging it like a baseball bat, swing it so your rear foot comes forward and strikes at the same time as the jack. All of a sudden that winter jacket doesn't mean as much. ------------------------------ From: "Steven C. Drape" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #414 Service Brought To You By http://WWW.DWP.NET - -------------------------------------------- >ever try a 2 handed "bayonet" type thrust with a stick - does really matter >where the target is You're right. This is an effective thrust, but not related to what I was talking about. A two-handed thrust requires the thruster to be in very close range, and is a stick-only type, while I was talking about the styles who are using thrusts as they would with a blade. Steve Steve_kbs@dwp.net http://www.geocities.com/eartes/KBS_System_index.html ------------------------------ From: Kendal Coats Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #416 Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet wrote: > evidence that the existence > of this indigenous people is more than the earliest > records. > > >> Since a piece of wood drop from the tree is a > ready hand tools for hunting > >>and self defense. From one Indigeneous person to another, I say A-HO!! Me Takwi A Su (we are all one people) All My relations __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 03:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Getting Cut/Kali Terms/Types of Hits Subject 1: >>The Dog Brothers have shown us that you can get whacked pretty hard >>with a stick quite a few times and keep going. Just one or two cut >>tendons or big blood vessels can ruin your whole day. Well, about one or two cuts, the same was said about the sticks. And like you said, DB pointed out that the stick is not a magic wand as often taught. So how do we know that one or two cuts can ruin the whole day. Not doubting, just wondering. Has anyone here, been in a real knife fight, in duelling context of course? Subject 2: >>Kali not the oldest/is the oldest/etc. Leo Gaje Jr. also claims to have done studies into the history of PI, and I believe he supports the use of Kali through his belief of history as he researched. I know that there have also been alot of studies, and like Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet points out in his post, most people born and raised there know nothing of the terms. However, as he speaks of the old tribe, GT Gaje also speaks of a tribe that supports it's use. Personally, I use the term Kahoy or Philippine Fighting Arts as I don't know how many times I've had to try to explain to people asking me that I'm more interested in making the stick work in real time than in what I should call it. Subject 3: Smashing, chopping, and slicing types of hits are all different from each other. Obviously all three can be done with the blade, and I feel that they can be done with the stick, what are, if any, the advantages of hitting with each of these three ways with the stick? ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "gary" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:40:19 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Re : Stickfighting Arts???/Kali??? From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:53:23 EDT Subject: eskrima: Stickfighting Arts???/Kali??? Dear GatPuno, >>Gary, Who are you to claimed that the Kali is the oldest weaponry arts in Philippine? You are not even Filipino, I want to tell you, we have 70 different dialect in the Philippines, you can't even speak one of them, are you?? So there's no point or reason for you to push it that the Kali is the oldest weaponry arts in our native land. Its insulting, why because I don't even understand up to now what really the meaning of Kali. Some Visayan say came from Indian Goddess of distraction, some say came from word Kalis, not sure. Only I know this is Visayan Martial arts. So claim at Visayan oldest Weaponry arts. I think that will be better and No comments. << Please undertsand one important point is, I am not going to push or claim "Kali" is the oldest weaponary art in Philippine. What I have said before is "Kali is the oldest Weaponart Art in Philippine" , it solely my personal opinion. Nothing offensive at any point. Don't take this point so serious, as a foreign Practicioner, I may have different point of view. >> And with referring the my little knowledge (As a foreign >> practicioner), "Kali" is a word and it also a concept, the word "Kali" >>doen't mean only Blade, Stick, it also included Mano Mano (Empty hand >>techniques) and some other weaponary as well. I hope this explaination >>can be accepted. Furthermore, if we look at the history of man kind, the >>first weapon we use is "Stone" for Hitting or throwing and a "Stick" or a >>"piece of wood from the tree"for hitting, this exists far more earlier that >>spears, bow and arrow, >>rope etc this sort of "processed handmade tools". >>> GP. My friends, vine rope is not the plastic rope, that you are thinking, this is made out of rattan, strong vines, bamboo etc, The Aetas and Manyans are not as innocent as you think. They have their own Calendar, They have their own Alphabets. In facts they found a 25,000 years old copper plates in my provinces with inscription on it and the only one can translate is the Mangyans among the natives tribes. This is strong evidence that the existence of this indigenous people is more than the earliest records. >>> So that mean "rope" is a processed weaponary, need to do some work before it can be use, isn't it ? Oldest means oldest, "Stick" or "pieces of wood" pick from the ground seems more "Old and natural" than "rope". Do you agree ? >> Since a piece of wood drop from the tree is a ready hand tools for hunting >>and self defense. If we agree with this concept, (please forgive me, I am >> not a human studies expert), than it really matches with a "Stickfighting" >>concept, and Kali included Stickfighting, as a result, if we say >>"Kali"(conceptually) is the oldest style of Philippine Weaponary art, it >> matches with the progress of Human Being in use of tools. >>> GP. I totally dis-agree with you on this, it might make sense to you not to me, why. Because your instructor told you that is the oldest arts? And you believed him? Well, on that case, that self justification is not, accepted. Kali is not even accepted by a lots of Filipino Masters as the term as the mother of the Filipino arts, how could you claimed this such a thing? You are not even Filipino to make such a claimed. >>> Truely speaking, it soley my personal opinion, I have never ask other people about this question before. All my opinion is based on the Human Progression Trend in using tools, if you dis-agree this point, so do you also dis-agree with the Human Progression Trends in using tools ? >>> To understand the arts, study the arts, to understand the history, then study the history. If you don't do of this you are just an empty tin can, rolling on the ground of gravel, noisy because is empty. Try to fill this can and roll it again, and you will find the sound is quieter that the empty can. >>> I agree with you. However, history is written by Human Being, we not sure whether the "facts" written in the books, is it truely the "Facts" or "The facts that particular writer think it is the facts", do you agree ? If we look at things in different way, may be we can found out more, aren't we? Gumagalang ng Lubos/with all respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA - ------------------------------ Respectfully, gary ------------------------------ From: mk322@juno.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 07:57:45 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis Hello, would someone comment on the "Modern Arnis" system? In particular, how does it measure up when your attacker has a knife? I have been told (wrongly?) that some of the arnis systems (for American consumption) have unrealistic amounts of grappling in them, which I understand is a subject of much debate (the idea of close in defensive measures with a knife). Sincerely, Don ================================ Don, mk322@juno.com ================================ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:11:25 EDT Subject: eskrima: LiveBlade Training Jeff Allen said << The question is: Do the benefits of live blade training outweigh the risk. My answer: NO. >> I will heartily disagree with you on one simple level. One of my students is a very large man. He had just attained his temporary blackbelt in TKD so he was not particularly new at the biz of the MA. However, one of his running comments was "You want my hips to do what?" He would lumber forward and take hits with impunity. He was big enough that he could get away with this attitude. Now supposedly the system he is trained in had some basic stick work (it was in fact, ripped off and watered down modern arnis). Along with this training he had a host of other "weapons." Despite it all he moved like a pregnant yak and basically looked at impact weapons in the same light as glorified fists, i.e. something he could take and still keep coming. When we crossed blades for the first time he discovered that there are all sorts of things he DIDN'T know about weapons, however, as my blade snaked by his block and came at him, he had an epiphany. All of a sudden this man had hips. He moved like I have never seen him move before and *BAM* he was out of the way. For the first time, he had met something he couldn't stand there and take. This is probably the most important thing to learn from live blade work. And that you had better well be damned well afraid and willing to move from your opponent's attack. I hate to say this, but I have seen too many people in the kali world who "live as they train" and how they train is stand there and hit - - apparently being more concerned about hitting their opponent than keeping their skin intact. This is an attitude that if it is not actively encouraged by stick and rubber knife training is often an unconscious byproduct. And it is exactly what you are going to do in a live fire situation. Bottomline is that if you are quote unquote training for reality you had better be afraid of the other guy's weapon and his ability to harm you. If you aren't then you are going to be standing there fat dumb and stupid while the guy guts you like a fish. Now personally I have no problem with the idea of training for sports, art or tradition. And under these circumstances, staying with sticks and practice blades is fine. You can safely practice complicated and intricate moves. However, recognize that some of the things that have crept into and/or have been over-emphasized in current training will get you killed with a real blade. Under these circumstances a move that only sort-of-works has to be abandoned in favor of a simpler, more bullet-proof move. Live blade training is only dangerous if the players are trying too complicated moves instead of focusing on key elements that will keep them safe. With real blades you quickly recognize which one is which. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 8:26:44 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #417 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.