From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #419 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 28 Aug 2000 Vol 07 : Num 419 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #417 blade training eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 eskrima: FMA & SMA eskrima: Blade Cuts Re: eskrima: Getting Cut/Kali Terms/Types of Hits eskrima: Filipino Prehistory links eskrima: 900 AD Laguna Copperplate Inscripture. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 eskrima: Gerak Simbat Seminar in NJ eskrima: Re: thrusts eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #415 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, the Martial Arts Resource, Inayan Eskrima Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:50:17 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #417 blade training > Jeff Allen said > << The question is: Do the benefits of live blade training outweigh the risk. > My answer: NO. >> > lots of good stuff snipped< > I will heartily disagree with you on one simple level. > Now personally I have no problem with the idea of training for sports, art or > tradition. And under these circumstances, staying with sticks and practice > blades is fine. You can safely practice complicated and intricate moves. > However, recognize that some of the things that have crept into and/or have > been over-emphasized in current training will get you killed with a real > blade. Under these circumstances a move that only sort-of-works has to be > abandoned in favor of a simpler, more bullet-proof move. > > Live blade training is only dangerous if the players are trying too > complicated moves instead of focusing on key elements that will keep them > safe. With real blades you quickly recognize which one is which. No disagreement on the attitude difference that you get when training with a live blade, so let me phrase it a different way: At what point does the danger of training with a live blade outweight the risk of injury. Again, accidents happen! Why not train with a slightly dulled metal blade rather that a razor sharp edge? The point can be made just as easily in my opinion, rather that risking the danger of debilitating injury --- and still be working in the non-art realm -- emphasising and practicing the real self defense, non-artsy moves. Jeff drjeffallen@home.com ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:25:33 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 > I'm curious, was this a free flow exercise or a patterned drill? I ask > because most of the accidents that I see are usually the result of someone > messing up a patterned drill. Which then begs the question of if you > continually practice with primarily a patterned type training program what > happens when you are on the street and the bad guy doesn't use any pattern > that you know? Last year on another board I posted that I do live blade > training and was amazed of the amount of negative comments that came my way > in private email. I am also curious in how do you train your students to > control their andrenel dump during a real confrontation? Do you mean to say > that the first time any of your students are exposed to a live blade scenario > is on the street? I try to train my people to survive on the streets. I do > not want their first experience with a blade, and all the fear that comes > with facing a live blade, to be on the street. Their chances for survival > under this type of scenario is not good. There was a saying when I was in > the military that I've always thought appropriate to any type of combatives > training, "We're not making cornflakes here." Of course if you are training > your people for entertainment purposes or sport then you are probably right > in that they don't need any type of live blade training and concentrating > primarily on pattern type training is probably sufficient. > > >>>As an instructor, I don't work with students and live blades anymore, it's > not worth the liability risk.<<< > > As I stated in a previous post, as an instructor I, in the vast majority of > the training, control the live blade. I take the liability risk in the hopes > that I can increase their chances of survival in the street. > > >>>We long argue with gun-people that a blade can be as dangerous as guns in > close-quarters, but you don't see people pointing live guns AT EACH OTHER and > practicing their CQC skills.<<< > > Actually while in the military we came to realize that one of the best > training set-ups for CQB was the introduction of simunition rounds. All the > bad guys were equiped with simunition rounds and you would be amazed at how > more careful and andrenalized the CQB team was when there was a possibility > that they would be shot. > > >>>Technology is at the point that using a live blade with a partner isn't > needed.<<< > > What technology are you referring to? What kind of knife training do you do > to get the student in an andrenalized state without the use of a live blade? > > >>>The question is: Do the benefits of live blade training outweigh the risk. > My answer: NO.<<< > > Well as you have probably guessed my answere to your question is yes, the > benefits definately outweigh the risks. > > Take care, Rob. Almost everything that I show/do is freeflow with some very basic guideline depending on the students. In this case also it was with a free-flow attack, but my point of the original post is that accidents happen? What if it was a hair-popping like my carry blades? Try this if you want an andrenalized state that risk less: Take a $40-$60 folder or sheath knife (Syderco, Benchmade, Columbia River, etc.) and run a rasp across the blade a few times -- to the point that running the blade across your arm doesn't cut you but makes your knees a little weak thinking about what if.....then do the same thing with the tip...pressing it into your own arm. If you can afford the risk to work with the live blades, you can also afford to modify a folder to work with an "almost live" blade. I have several blades in this style, and very few people want to practice realistic combat scenerios with them *but they are available*. One of the problems that I see is that people jump directly from a wood or rubber weapon to a live blade rather that progressing to that point after LOTS of practice. I don't believe that anything that I teach doesn't have a street oriented combat perspective "That I Can Explain to a Student". You mention that "Actually while in the military we came to realize that one of the best > training set-ups for CQB was the introduction of simunition rounds. All the > bad guys were equiped with simunition rounds and you would be amazed at how > more careful and andrenalized the CQB team was when there was a possibility > that they would be shot." The military example that you gave used an "almost live" solution to a lethal weapon. Why use the leathal weapons when accidents happen.....I know.....It won't happen to me. You also mentioned: > I try to train my people to survive on the streets. I do > not want their first experience with a blade, and all the fear that comes > with facing a live blade, to be on the street. Their chances for survival > under this type of scenario is not good. There was a saying when I was in > the military that I've always thought appropriate to any type of combatives > training, "We're not making cornflakes here." Of course if you are training > your people for entertainment purposes or sport then you are probably right > in that they don't need any type of live blade training and concentrating > primarily on pattern type training is probably sufficient. I do not train anybody that I work with with the street situation of a live blade coming at them full force/speed in a dark alley (probably from behind or the side). That's why it's training. A live blade coming at someone at 1/2 to 3/4 speed is a different case than a street situation -- we train people to live. Military training and military battle or defense training and fighting-for-your-life don't compare when we talk about human reactions. I've done very little pattern training in my life, I've (personally) found that it wasn't the best way for me to learn or teach. We don't shoot live rounds at student's heads in training, but it happens in battle -- you can't train that. I'm really not try to start a fight or pick at the response to my post, I think it a topic that we don't discuss enough when the topic comes up. Thanks for the response -- it's a needed discussion. Keep training, Jeff drjeffallen@home.com ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:28:56 -0400 Subject: eskrima: FMA & SMA RE: "Same thing with FMA. But we have 2 different places: the Philippines and Latin America, a >commundenominator: the invasion by the Spanish conquistadors during 300 years and >we found in these places stickfighting, machetes, knives and espada y >daga... I let you make your own conclusions. There is clearly a connection." A Filipino student once told me his parents went on a cruise down the west coast of Mexico. At one stop they were in a local outdoor market bargaining with a vendor. The vendor turned to his wife to say something privately and to the shock of two Filipinos, the two Mexicans began speaking to one and other in the home dialect of the two Filipino tourists! When the Filipinos inquired about this they found that his town was started by a group of sailors who jumped ship back in the conquistador days. These people looked Mexican but spoke a Filipino language and were found to have several distinct food dishes that were unusual for Mexico but made at home by the Filipinos. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:38:28 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Blade Cuts Bladewerkr wrote: "Concerning whether cuts really do work: depends on where the cut is. While bouncing I got rib slashed one night, bloody and painful and pissed me off. A friend caught slash by a small case pocket knife across the inside of the forearm it took three operations and about 18 months to get his hand working again (about 85%). Like any other weapon people get shot every day and keep coming but not if they are shot in the right place. Same with the blade, that is why we train to target our thrusts and cuts. " My knife article from last year's Inside Kung-Fu has some gun and knife wound stories that you may find interesting. Go to: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/Knife-Article.htm for the article. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Todd Ellner Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:42:31 -0700 Subject: Re: eskrima: Getting Cut/Kali Terms/Types of Hits Chad > Subject 1: >>> The Dog Brothers have shown us that you can get whacked pretty hard >>> with a stick quite a few times and keep going. Just one or two cut >>> tendons or big blood vessels can ruin your whole day. > > Well, about one or two cuts, the same was said about the sticks. And > like you said, DB pointed out that the stick is not a magic wand as > often taught. So how do we know that one or two cuts can ruin the > whole day. Not doubting, just wondering. Has anyone here, been in a > real knife fight, in duelling context of course? A couple years' work in the ER convinced me. When the tendons on the leg or arm are severed the limb just doesn't work right. All the toughness in the world won't make the arm move if the muscles aren't attached at the joint. If the femoral, radial or hepatic arteries are cut, not to mention the big pipes in the neck or suchlike it doesn't take all that long to lose enough blood pressure that you lose consciousness. When my father was doing his internship in Chicago guys who had angered the mob would sometimes be brought in. There were, mmm, highly specialized technicians who could put a blade or icepick in the second or third intercostal space and hit the aorta. All the ones he saw were DOA. ------------------------------ From: Robbie Trinidad Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:02:16 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Filipino Prehistory links Hello, On 28-Aug-00, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > The Aetas and Manyans > are not as innocent as you think. They have their own Calendar, I hope this isn't a reference to the Povedano Calendar which is a confirmed fake. Details can be found at http://www.escape.ca/~pmorrow/calendar.htm > They have their own Alphabets. These writing systems are still in use. Details at http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/living/living.htm > In facts they found a 25,000 years old copper plates in > my provinces with inscription on it and the only one can translate is the > Mangyans among the natives tribes. This is strong evidence that the > existence of this indigenous people is more than the earliest records. > - ------------- > > I would like to hear more about this 'alphabet on copper plate'- or be > directed to some documentation of this claim- as it flies in the face of > all history of man on earth!* The earliest copper plate inscription I'm aware of is the Laguna Copper plate which is dated 900 AD. For more details, go to http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm Regards - -- [=======================================================================] [ Roberto B. Trinidad | E-mail: deadlock@mozcom.com ] [ CEO - World Domination NetCorp. | http://www2.mozcom.com/~deadlock/ _ ] [ Freelance 3D Graphics Animator | Quezon City, Philippines _ // ] [ and Desktop Videographer | Member: Team AMIGA \X/ ] [-----------------------------------------------------------------------] [ "Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for ] [ something, sometime in thy life...." -Elminster of Shadowdale ] [=======================================================================] ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:02:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: 900 AD Laguna Copperplate Inscripture. Jeff Burke, Thanks for pointing that claimed, I went back to the Original website that I seen the copper Plates is not that old. Is 900 AD, not 25,000 its my bad. But this make the oldest document found in the Philippines. This Laguna Copper Plate Inscriptive push the earliest records than the 1521 previously accepted date of observation of Antonio Pigaffeta. This change a lot of view of the Historian in the Philippines and all over the worlds. The Sri Vijaya, was 13th century, also the madjapahit Empire is at about the same time 12 th 13th Century. That make this records earlier than them. And the only one can explain the inscription is the Hanunoo Tribes (Manyans tribes) in Oriental Mindoro. Where the Harimaw Lumad (Filipino Wrestling) is originated. That evidence make the Aetas and Mangyans the oldest Martial Arts experts in the Philippines. The art of Survival is always part of their daily life. Lumad (the arts of Animal wrestling) is the only martial arts, they praticed, in regards of weapon, they utilized Bow and arrow, Sibat (Spears), Lubid (Rope) for Hunting and survival reason. << The Aetas and Manyans are not as innocent as you think. They have their own Calendar, They have their own Alphabets. In facts they found a 25,000 years old copper plates in my provinces with inscription on it and the only one can translate is the Mangyans among the natives tribes. This is strong evidence that the existence of this indigenous people is more than the earliest records. - ------------- I would like to hear more about this 'alphabet on copper plate'- or be directed to some documentation of this claim- as it flies in the face of all history of man on earth!* >> You can Check the Laguna Copperplate and its traslation: http://bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:26:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 The Laguna Masters of Arnis/Eskrima took it out the thrusting rules in Laguna Arnis Group back in the early 1960' s, because of the fact you can kill your opponent if you get the right target. I've seen it happen in 1970s in Magdalena, Laguna Stickfighting Tournaments. A Master from Louisiana, Laguna, they called him Maestro Berong, "Hari ng Banahaw" and the Master of Majayjay, Laguna called Maestro Doming "Mananib ng Majayjay". The match get out of hand They try to kill each other and Maestro Berong stub Maestro Doming to the armpit, due to the force of both fighters the stick got stuck to his armpit, He was rushed to the Hospital in Sta Cruz, Laguna and announce dead on arrival. So I've seen it the effectiveness of the thrust, with stick, a lot of fighter lost their eyes, due of the stubbing techniques of the stick. So that the reason all Tournament in Laguna is no Thrusting only striking with slash strike. No Punyo also, its consider as thrusting. << <<< Thrusts with a stick, especially a stick used with one hand, are ineffective against an opponent who is in fighting mode- full of adrenaline. >>> >> Do not under estimate the stick thrust, if applied in the right timing, precision techniques is effective killing techniques. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: NYCAinfo@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:14:42 EDT Subject: eskrima: Gerak Simbat Seminar in NJ This past Saturday Cikgor Meor Sulaiman Sharif held a Gerak Simbat(baton/short staff) seminar at his Gayong Warrior Arts Academy in New Jersey. Master Sharif's new academy boasts a huge training floor and backyard as well as ample living quarters upstairs. The short staff or baton used in this unique Malaysian Bersilat system measured roughly 40" long with a thickness of 1 1/2". After going through some of the basic principles that were followed in the system which were: Avoidance, safety zones, returning fire/counter offenses and annihilation(or terminating the attacker if the situation warrants which is usually combative or life threatening), we moved smoothly into a 21 move sequence which linked basic blocks and strikes together. Within the sequence, there were specific angulation and various levels of attack and defense, one of the primary being the ability to change elevation from high to low including the use of the ground for escape and evasion or to continue an attack. The breakdown of the sequence followed with specific techniques taught for blocking and counter attacking the moves learned. Master Sharif in demonstrating brutal efficiency explained that the warrior arts were usually for fighting more than one opponent and required lightning quick retaliation. He also explained the training in Gayong was to go beyond a surface damage strike into bone damage or breaking which is probably one of the reasons for the long thick stick. This mentality and training methodology mirrored in part both the Thai and Burmese arts which were created and cultivated on the battlefield or in combat situations. The ability to deploy strikes, kicks, rolls, etc. within a quarter beat of the lightning baton strikes brought the comparisons even closer. Master Sharif further explained that any weapon is an extension of the man himself, so in this system they attempted to get at the man himself. Following that, grabs and disarms were covered from a multitude of situations moving into anchoring and destroying the opponent. Alot of material was covered by Master Sharif who was more than open to answer all questions and show many, many variations. As a treat at the close, Master Sharif went through the various ancient Malay weapons which included keris, golok, perang, panjang, tombok, badek and my favorite the kerambit. Sensing our enthusiasm, he freely taught us several movements as well as showing the various techniques on the large, medium and small kerambits. Students of the Filipino, Thai and Burmese arts could gain a basic understanding through classes or seminars of this unique Malaysian system, and will discover similarities, endless variations and unique presentations of techniques that will add to or fortify their arsenals. Master Sharif had several live in students at this unique full time academy. Students were practicing archery when we arrived! Cikgor Meor Sharif gives regular classes and seminars and can be reached at: Gayong Warrior Arts Academy 1315 N. Delaware Street Paulsboro, New Jersey 08066 (856) 423-5101 or at their website: www.gayong.com Vincent Giordano ------------------------------ From: "Joe Balabis" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:12:46 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: thrusts "Stick thrusts do not have enough force behind them to hurt anyone seriously enough to be useful." I must disagree with this statement. Although it may seem stick thrusts are not as effective as full blow strikes, they still should not be taken lightly. Thrusts not only can be used to "pick" or fake an opponent, but I've seen and felt thrusts effectively used when delivered to an opponent's groin, sternum, or throat. They are also effective in throwing off the timing of an opponents attack. In fact, I believe there was an incident at a tournament where one fighter delivered a thrust to his opponent's sternum. The opponent lunged forward as the thrust was being delivered, and the attacker's stick slid up underneath his opponent's face guard, severely damaging his opponent's larynx. I think in a real fight without any pads, a thrust to the groin or throat will distract an opponent long enough for one to escape or set up a stronger blow. Joe _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: RBalicki@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 03:18:56 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #415 I am sorry I have not replied to this e-mail earlier. Maybe I should have worded the flyer different but for what it is worth Erik is undefeated as a Champion in Shoot Wrestling. You May have seen Erik lose a match, but not a title match. He has defended his belt many times in Japan and has done an excellent job keeping it around his waist. Ron Balicki ------------------------------ From: "Earl Baylon" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 02:03:15 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #418 Greetings... I'm just another practitioner trying to get back into the swing of things. I was wondering if anyone had some training tips for solo training (helpful music and drills) and training in confined spaces. (i.e. a college campus apartment) I would greatly appreciate it if someone could suggest something. Also, I was wondering if anyone knew about the laws on carrying a knife in California. Thanks, Earl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 6:53:40 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #419 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.