From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #480 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 12 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 480 In this issue: eskrima: Titser Jason eskrima: Titles eskrima: Estalilla Kabaroan eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #478 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #478 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Inay" Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:47:23 GMT Subject: eskrima: Titser Jason Well now, this seems to be a bit more meaningful. I’m wondering why the need for an organization? It seems just about everyone becomes a Guro and starts his own organization these days. By organization I mean simply more than a simple school. What’s the point? >People (in an ideal world) start their own organizations to do things the >way they believe is right, and to rectify any failings they may percieve >in their parent organization. >Well Mr. Lowe it seems that most of your post following, answers this > >question pretty throroughly. Thanks. To prevent misuse of the instructors name? We’ll any lawsuit can do that. >It is unfortunate if things have to come to this, if we can not manage to >conduct ourselves well we will see the further erosion of our right to >practice the arts we see fit to do. Legislation is already evident that >would hinder or narrow our choices, simply cuz we just can not get >along..... To control how the information is dissimulated to the public? We’ll no organization can control that. A student either respects his instructors wishes or doesn’t. >Very true, however I guess I am a little old fashion, but isn't martial >arts suppose to teach respect in some way? To say who can and who can not teach? We’ve all seen how ridiculous that is. How many times has a formerly respected and "certified" instructor been declared "persona non grata" by his or her respective organization. That person is no longer an instructor or allowed to teach this system or that. Come on. The knowledge is already there. Someone saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so. Besides, you don’t need an "organization" to say "no, this person did not finish the system and is therefore is not qualified". >IMO that would be a failing in ones criteria.... Generally titles and what not, are used to provide a few functions. (IMO) 1) to recognize effort, sacrifice, and ability 2) to denote responsibility 3) used by some as a means of respect to the entitled There are more reasons, but do they honestly matter? Not really. I personally regard titles as a necessary evil. I have seen many people come and go from the arts in general. Why? because they do not like the politics... Problem is if you have two people in a room, you have politics. So what do you do? Some make their own titles, some don't use them. And some just quit the whole thing entirely. In the end titles are really a matter of opinion. They simply are not a result of fact. Regardless if the criteria is based on fighting aptitude, teaching aptitude, or political acumen. It is not standardized, it is not regulated by the government or a governing body (thank the powers that be). So MA in general use titles to regulate ourselves, and be respectful. Isn't that enough? The alternative is for Mr. Government Representative to tell you this or that..... Take a look at some of the threads on that subject, and do some research on it.... Am I saying organizations are bad. Not really, just that we look at our motivations. Why is it important to have an organization? If we have similar motivations, then why is it so hard to work together. Politics, personalities? That’s ego and should be superceded by the larger goal. I’m I too idealistic, perhaps…..but I’m from Berkeley, what do you expect. :) >Why is it so hard to work together? Opinion, Ego, and Human Nature... By the way, this is not an attack on any particular organization. It’s just a rant for which the current "title" thread was the catalyst. If titles are only important in the context of the organization, why use them outside of the organization? >Not everyone does, nor does everyone expect you to do so. To expect it > >would be akin to demanding respect, how silly is that? And ppublicly I > >would like to attack the "Galactic Federation of Grand Poo Bah Martial >Arts" Just Kidding... As a student of XYZ I might want to know that Guro Joe is grand booba within XYZ but as an outsider, grand booba means nothing. Even within a larger forum related to XYZ, say Eskrima at large, grand booba means nothing. There's no point of reference. >EXACTLY! As I said, use of titles is sometimes meant to just show respect.. Sorry for this but I just can't resist.... Titles are just bad form (or rather mostly misused)... Unfortunately people tend to let, or should I say use titles to define themselves and their identity? On an existential level it is not healthy. heh my 2 coppers my title: Jason _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:33:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Titles Hi, Just spoke to *my* instructor about it, so now I am simply passing on info, but I suspect that he is qualified to speak on this: "Datu" means "chief" or "king" depending on what era you were living in and where. A "Tuhon" was a tyrannical leader, who forced his subordinates to worship him as a god. Hmmmm...doesn't sound like a fitting name for a martial arts leader. According to Mustafa Gatdula, those titles are NOT used by the men bestowing them, and Leo Gaje only began using the title in recent years. His uncle, the "Grand Puba" of Pekiti Tirsia, Nene Tortal, doesn't even use this title. Nor do any members of Doce Pares, Presas Arnis (ng Pilipinas), Balintawak, Lightning Scientific Arnis, Bakbakan, Yaw Yan, Lapu Lapu Arnis Federation, nor are they accepted by the following FILIPINO governing bodies: PKA, MKA, NARAPHIL, AAP. Doesn't sound like a widely used term in the Philippines to me...and I believe those are all the major organizations of the Philippines--at least the ones I've heard of. The title used is not as important as the information taught, but are we trying to pass these titles on as being a part of the Filipino art, or are we just using them for the sake of having advanced titles? If Remy Presas passes out the rank of Datu, then the people who strive for that rank should have the right to know that it won't mean a thing in the Philippines. And if it's so necessary, why doesn't HE use it? Look I am not trying to start anything up, I was merely passing on information I learned along the way. Now if that exposes a few people or embarasses a few people, I apologize. But let's be honest, if something does not exist in an art or culture and we *inject* it, it isn't fair that people are paying money to get something ancient and "authentic" that someone made up 10 years ago. And it isn't fair to newcomers like my instructor who must convince new students that he IS teaching the authentic art because the student read in a magazine that "all Filipino arts have espada y daga, hubad lubad, kinomutai, etc." We are told a story that when Kuya first began teaching full time, a friend of his (who learned through seminars) asked his mother what title he planned to use. She didn't understand the question, and he named off a few titles, "sifu, sensei, grandmaster, what Maurice call his grandfather?" Kuya's mother answered "Papa!" They ended up choosing "kuya" which meant "older brother" since his only classmates were his brother and sister, and he was the oldest. and today, 7 year later, people still approach him and suggest that he uses a heirarchy system. In our school, what distinguishes an advanced student from a beginner is his fighting ability. After all that is really all that matters... Jay 10% cash back on all your calls through 2000 at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: David Reyes Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:11:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Estalilla Kabaroan > I would give serious consideration to GM Ramiro Estalilla of Kabaroan > Eskrima. I have written about him previously, as have list members David > Reyes, Ron Reekers (a student of his) and Tom Meadows. Both David and Ron > are far better qualified than I to comment in depth. More qualified to comment on Grandmaster Ramiro Estalilla is fellow list member Manong Lino Espejo (kasano Gayyem ko!). Manong Lino hails from the GM's "backyard" in the early 1970's and is well versed in the "orginal" combative curriculum before the Grandmaster changed it. "Hawak ng Alas". Sige, David Reyes~ ------------------------------ From: Taojen1@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:58:15 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #478 In a message dated 10/12/00 10:12:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Has anyone out there seen the Paladin videos "silat Concepts" by Joseph Simonet, (who I understand is an instructor under maha guro Victor de Thours) >> Actually this video (and Mr. Simonet) has been publically repudiated by Pak Victor. Mr. Simonet is a black belt in Pak Victor's Tongkat system ans was not taught Serak by Pak Vic or his heir Maha Guru Muda Bob Vanetta. Please see serak.com for Pak's comments or if you need any information regarding Serak. Another person highly recommended is Guru Stevan Plinck whose video from Paladin I cannot recommend highly enough. Buddy ------------------------------ From: Taojen1@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:02:22 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #478 In a message dated 10/12/00 10:12:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I don't know if anyone has posted this before, but Tom Clancy (Hunt for Red October, Patriot Games etc) has a series of four books out about the FBI's internet division called "NETFORCE". One of the central characters is a practioner of "pukulan pentjak silat bukti negara serak" the detail seems pretty accurate to me, as are all the other references to martial arts therein. >> And if you look to whom Clancy thanks in the beginning of the book, one of the ones mentioned is Steve Perry, a student of Guru Stevan Plincks, a well respected teacher of Serak. Steve also spins a pretty good yarn himself in the Sci-fi genre. Buddy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:12:12 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #480 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.