From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #486 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 16 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 486 In this issue: eskrima: GM Ernesto Presas Final 2000 Seminars eskrima: Re: Datu eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #485 eskrima: Re: Datus eskrima: Off Topic: Seminar w/ Vince Black in Holland eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kendal Coats Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: GM Ernesto Presas Final 2000 Seminars Oct 8 Sun. So. Lake Tahoe, CA Guro Rick Manglinong 530-541-6082 Oct 14-15 Sat-Sun. Surrey, BC, Canada Guro Russ Blonski 604-590-6413 Oct 21-22 Sat-Sun. Baltimore, MD Prof. Tim Lynch 301-490-5909 Oct 28 Sat. Harrisburg, PA Sibak Duane Ranieri 717-732-6465 Oct 30 Mon Back home to the Philippines! Dont miss these final oppertunities to train with one of the best, direct from the Islands. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:49:32 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Datu >From: "tim hartman" >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 16:08:23 GMT >Subject: eskrima: Datu > >Ray, >Halfred did not get his Datu title from Remy. There are only 6 Datus >to my >knowledge. Shishir, Kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, David Hoffman, >Dietter, >and myself(Tim Hartman). You are correct Mr. Hartman, Mr. Halford Jones, is associated with GM P. Lanada and not GM Remy Presas. With regard to the number of people awarded/given the title by Professor Presas, I will take your word for it since you are paart of that very select group. >To the rest of the Digest: >I don't understand how this topic keeps coming up? It doesn't matter >what >title we use, but what we make of it. I would agree that with you on the matter of how one uses a title but I have to disagree on the matter of what title is used! The title given by Professor Presas has some very strong cultural meanings associated with it in the Philippines and since Professor Presas, **is not**, to the best of my knowledge a person of Muslin ancestory and he has not converted to Islam, it would seem to be inappropriate at best and culturally insulting at worst to have the title cavalierly given out as part of a martial arts system of titles or ranks. The topic continues to come up because the title is being used outside of its' esxisting/living cultural context. It is not a title that was lost in antiquity and revived for usage. What is it about "insulting" a people and their culture that you do not understand? >We in Modern Arnis don't get this title when we reach a certan rank. >It is >after displaying leadership abliities, only then if the >Professor thinks >we are worthy he will bestow this title on some one. Again, the matter is not how you got the title. We understand that it is given by Professor Presas. And I can accept that it is associated with leadership within the International Modern Arnis Federation. The problem is that you are insensitive to the very real implications that are associated with using the title when neither you nor Professor Presas are part of the cultural grouping that holds that title in highest regard. What ever became of the geenerally accepted martial arts title of "master"? Isn't that what most of us would be inclined to consider aas roughly equievilent to the title that Professor Presas has beetwwed upon you? >In July of 1999 I had respectfully turned the title down, because I >did >not think I was ready. In July of 2000 I was offered the title >again after >I tested for rank in front of my peirs. Remy told me that >it was the >highest rank tested for in over 17 years. After proving to >myself and the >people who witnessed the test I accepted the title. Good for you. It was important to test for the title and rank advancement that was reported on this forum in July by one of your students. But you should have turned down the offer again and showed some cultural sensitivity. Hiding behind Professor Presas, is no excuse, in my opinion. The fact that he has not used good common sense is no excuse for you to accept the title and then get bent out of shape when others are ready to acknowlege and accept the title as easily as you have. >I will say this again and hopefully for the last time. We in the IMAF are >given these titles by the grandmaster. If you have a problem with it, get >out from behind your computors and confront the grandmaster with your isses >Face to Face. If not then maybe you >should keep our opinions to yourself. It really does not matter what your opinion is about the title. When something does not smell right, there is ussually a reason for the odor. As an IMAF member, would you accept Professor Presas' notion to jump over a cliff to show your leadership within the IMAF? If you were truely a leader, in my opinion, you would understand the situation with regard to the title and be very sensitive to why others are not going blindly accept the usage of it in a martial art context. By your insistence on usinng the title, you continue to perpetrate a cultural insult against a group of people within another country and society. Regardless of what Professor Presas, does or says, are you not man enough to step up to that leadership role that is implied by your title and ask Professor to change the "datu" to "master"? > Yours Truly, > Datu Timothy J.Hartman Think about it Mr. Hartman, wouldn't you be somewhat upset of some Filipino group in RP began to issue the title of "Boss-Reverend" to its' highest ranked leaders because they demonstrated martail arts leadership skills? My suggestion to you is avoid going to RP, now that you insist on using that title. There are certinly some people there who would be quite willing to 'test' your skills and your right to hold and use the title, since you are definately not Filipino. EBrook _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:27:46 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #485 tenrec@avcorner.com wrote: >Subject: eskrima: Greetings and Salutations Mr. Hartman! **** Mr. Hartman's comments snipped out **** >Greetings Mr. Hartman: > >I agree fully with you that the "titles" thread comes up far too >often on >this list. I would add that when a topic re-surfaces from time to time, it is both due to an intrest in the topic and because people have questions about it. >However... > >1. I believe that when this or ANY topic is brought up, "open >season" is declared and anyone and everyone (and his kid brother) are >allowed to comment, agree, disagree, or otherwise react to the topic >until the list owner says to take it to private emails and move on. > >2. IMHO, topics are best discussed in a forum such as this or other >digests, out in the open, rather than have people talk about it behind >the backs of the people who may be involved... > >3. From the posts I read, all the posters were respectful. None of >the >posters questioned, or challenged, the skills, competence, or >character >of the "title-bearers" themselves, nor were there questions >of or >challenges to the schools, styles or organizations represented >by the >"title-bearers." All points are well taken and I would agree with your descriptions. >4. The discussion was on meaning of the different titles given. I >believe it started with "guro" and recently gravitated towards >"datu." >IMHO I thought it would be an opportunity to discuss the >political and >cultural importance attached to the word "datu," as it >is used in the >Phil., before the FMAers started to use the word in >their own context. This is the crux of the issue and the reason for the topic of the 'datu' title continuing to re-appear from time to time. Just because Professor Presas is a Filipino, that does give him full authority to appropriate a title from another group of people within that widely diversified culture. >This was meant to be informative, and I kept it short because I >remember >that this was discussed before in previous digests. The >title "datu" was >used in the past to mean a "chief or leader of a >tribe or people"; it is >STILL IN USE TODAY in the Southern (Mindanao) >regions of the Phil., mainly >among the Muslim Filipinos. This is an important point that needs to be read and understood by the members of this digest. I made the same point in my reply to Mr. Hartman. >I understand also that there is a government agency that regulates the use >of this titles in the >Phil. (I will double-check on this.) Thanks. I did not know that this was possible. It is a good thing to have sources of correct information. >I believed that it was important to share this info with "the rest of >the Digest." As we have read there continues to be questions about >all >things FMA related, and in this case, things Filipino (in >general). >Having followed this digest for some time now, I have >noticed that very >few of the posters have a grasp or knowledge of >Fil. culture, history or >daily life in the PI; their only exposure >is from the FMAs, or from >forums such as these. Tenrec, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. There are just some things that do not easily transfer from one culture to another and when placed in a martial arts context, might not transfer at all! >There is some confusion at times, and even misinformation regarding >Fil. >topics, and this digest is a good place to discuss them and >hopefully >together we can clear up a number of them. You are correct again. >I personally have no problem with you, Herr Knuettel or any Arnis >practitioner using "datu" or any other title your organization deems >fit. It is Mr. Remy Presas' prerogative to do so within his >organization. And I appreciate both your and Herr Knuettel's >position on >this matter. It is a laudable positionn only in so far as it allows them to acknowldge their receipt of the title within the context of the IMAF, however, it does not excuse them from learning about what the title means in the Filipino cultural and religious context. In short is it approriate for them to use the title aand is it possible that they are unintentionally insulting a large segment of the Filipino population? If so what should be done about that situation? Laayinng all responsibilty at the feet of Professor Presas, does not demostrate leadership, in my opinion. >I DO feel that people should know what it means and how it is used >in the >Phil. setting. I also feel that, as the newer and younger >FMAers join >this list, they should feel free to ask any question >regarding any topic. >I can see this "datu" question coming up again >(and again)in the future. I agree that it will and that it should if the questions are not fully answered and any conroversies resolved. Mr. Hartman wrote: >>If you have a problem with it, get out from behind your computors >>and >>confront the grandmaster with your isses Face to Face. If not >>then maybe >>you should keep our opinions to yourself. Since Mr. Hartman, has made the choice of refering to himself as 'datu', then he should not attempt to or be allowed to hide behind Professor Presas. He has some responsibilty in this matter as well as the man who made the presentation. Tenrec wrote: >I would like to meet Mr. Presas face-to-face, NOT in confrontation, >but in >a peaceful and civilized conversation...I have seen him demo > in the >distant past, and have read testimony on this and other >digests that he >(still) is an honorable and reasonable man...it would >truly be a privilege >to meet him, as I too studied Modern Arnis many >years ago, and I would >really like to ask him a whole bunch of q's. >Sadly, he never seems to get >to our neck of the woods anymore... You are truely a man of diplomacy. >You seemed a little irritated in your last post. I can only hope >you >will show a little more patience and tolerance with us (the rest >of the >digest), as befits a true and wise Datu... So wisely stated and I must say, better than I was able to put forward in my two posts on this matter. >Sorry this was so long......here's hoping for continued peaceful >discussions on the list...and for a "subway series"... > >tenrec (plain old tenrec) >tenrec@avcorner.com No comment on the subway series, but good luck to you and thanks for such a clearly stated post. EBrook _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "S. H. Wee" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:14:12 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Datus I have no intention of getting into the title debate. However, just FYI, Datus is still used in Borneo part of Malaysia which is close to Southern Philipine. The title Datu still carry a lot of weight and highly respected. However, this title is not given lightly and can only conferred by the Governors or Sultans. Using unauthorised Datu title here is an criminal offence. Sincerely, S. H. Wee > Mr. Tenrec wrote: > 4. The discussion was on meaning of the different titles given. I > believe it started with "guro" and recently gravitated towards "datu." > IMHO I thought it would be an opportunity to discuss the political and > cultural importance attached to the word "datu," as it is used in the > Phil., before the FMAers started to use the word in their own context. > This was meant to be informative, and I kept it short because I remember > that this was discussed before in previous digests. The title "datu" > was used in the past to mean a "chief or leader of a tribe or people"; > it is STILL IN USE TODAY in the Southern (Mindanao) regions of the > Phil., mainly among the Muslim Filipinos. I understand also that there > is a government agency that regulates the use of this titles in the > Phil. (I will double-check on this.) ------------------------------ From: Ken4814@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:04:44 EDT Subject: eskrima: Off Topic: Seminar w/ Vince Black in Holland Howdy folks, De-lurking here to post this which might be of interest to some: Hsing I & Pa Kua seminar w/ Vince Black Nov. 25-26, 2000 in the NETHERLANDS - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We are pleased to announce a seminar with Dr. Vince Black covering the internal arts of Hsing I Ch'uan and Pa Kua Chang. DATE: 9.00 - 16.00 Friday Nov. 25 & Saturday Nov. 26, 2000 LOCATION: Alkmaar, NORD-HOLLAND (approx. 40 minutes NW of Amsterdam) Train Station Alkmaar Noord (across the street) De Hoornse Vaart Molenzaal Hertog Aalbrechtweg 4 tel 072 561-6391 ACCOMODATIONS: Hotel Alkmaar (by car just coming north from Amsterdam A9) Arcadialaan 2 1813 KN Alkmaar tel +31 (0)72 540-1414 fax +31 (0)72 547-0141 rates are 129nlg one person room 160nlg two person rrom 200nlg 3 person room TOPIC: Hsing I Ch'uan & Pa Kua Chang (see bio below for lineages) : Introduction Mind Body Connection Authentic Power Dynamic Fighting Self Improvement Health & Energy Cultivation PRICE: 50 nlg ($20) for one day, 90 nlg ($36) for both days if you register by October 25, 2000; 75 nlg for one day, 150 nlg for both days if you register by Nov. 13, 2000. **NOTE: Registration deadline is Nov. 13, 2000. - - No prior experience required. - - Please confirm if you are interested as soon as possible as we will need an accurate attendance amount to reserve hotel rooms for those who plan to attend both days. - - Attendance will be limited so confirm your space as soon as possible. CONTACT (Email): Basia at basiaszpak@hotmail.com or Ken at ken4814@aol.com Our group in Holland is headed by Basia Szpak, a student and assistant instructor under Dr. Black. Basia is the only direct student and instructor under Dr. Black within his lineage teaching in Europe. Brief Bio of Vince Black _________________________________________ Vince Black, O.M.D., is a practitioner of internal boxing for over 30 years and a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine for over 20 years. He is the founder of a national association, the North American Tang Shou Tao Association (NATSTA), which strives to preserve, develop, and promote traditional internal martial art styles as well as traditional medicine systems. He is a direct disciple of Master Li Zi Ming in Liang Zhen Pu Ba Gua Zhang and Master Hsu Hong Chi in Hsing-I Ch'uan. Dr. Black, through the NATSTA, teaches the complete systems of Liang Zhen Pu and Gao-style Ba Gua Zhang, Tang Shou Tao Hsing-I Ch'uan (affiliated with International Tang Shou Tao Association), Tai Chi Ch'uan, San Miguel Eskrima (affiliated with the San Miguel Eskrima Association), and several systems of Qi Gong. Prior to Dr. Black devoting his studies to the internal boxing arts, he was a long-time practitioner of Kajukenbo under Sijo Adriano Emperado (who lived with Dr. Black for over 8 years). Dr. Black has also had extensive exposure to Filipino, Indonesian and native Hawaiian arts, giving him a broad-based insight into the fighting arts. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:34:20 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #486 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.