From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 25 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 500 In this issue: eskrima: bob breen website eskrima: translation eskrima: Speed & Power eskrima: Speed/Power Revisited eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #499 eskrima: translation eskrima: Power definition eskrima: Re: Speed/Power eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vincent Bollozos" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:10:33 GMT Subject: eskrima: bob breen website hey, can some one please send me the address to bob breen's website thanks _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Pentricks@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:09:55 EDT Subject: eskrima: translation > Bago lang ang pangalan Kali Illustrisimo. Noon Olistrisimo Escrima ang > tawag. Galing sa mga estudiante ni Tatang yung mga pangalan. Si Tatang > mismo sinabi na walang pangalan ang "art" niya, di naman kailangan, basta > patay ang kalaban. The name Kali Illustrisimo is fairly new. Before it was Olistrisimo Escrima. The names came from the students of Tatang. Tatang is the one who said his "art" doesn't have a name; you don't need one (a name), just as long as your enemy is dead. ------------------------------ From: "Wimsatt, Clint (OD)" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:28:52 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Speed & Power IMHO When talking about speed and power comparing a jab to a hard hit is an apple and orange comparison. When you throw a jab to me it is meant to offset your opponent, setting them up for your hard punch. The jab is meant to be fast by using only your arm, involving less of your body. By not hitting as hard the recoil is less so you can quickly deliver the next jab. The hard hit commits more of the body takes the brain more time to complete and is harder to pull back from for the next hit. But I bet (guessing) the speed of the punch on contact would be comparable to the jab, just harder to pull back from. So when training I would guess one would train for both a fast jab and a fast powerful hard hit. Now that may be how it works in boxing but I don't know if it applies to stick fighting. That is in my not very experienced humble opinion Clint ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 25 Oct 00 10:43:18 CDT Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power Revisited > In the second and third > equation, physics shows that if we increase one of the attributes by 1 > and decrease the other attribute by 1, we end up with both equations > being less than the original sum. The essence of the force equation is a product, not a sum ... addition and multiplication are a "no compare", eh?:-) For example, there is no comparison between 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 and 1 + 0.5 = 1.5. Forget the sum, it distorts comprehension of the issue. Re: weight (mass) and speed (acceleration). The issue with increased mass is that our capacity to accelerate will decrease. With increased mass we have to maintain acceleration, or prevent it from decreasing so much that the force outcome is decreased. Ever swung something heavy with a "push" result instead of a "thwack"? Some people strike this way with hands and feet ... if they could accelerate their movement the outcome would be different ... it's like the difference btwn kicking and power kicking. Power kicking doesn't necessarily mean that we have to kick any "harder" ... what it requires is a change in how we time and coordinate different aspects of kicking movements. This makes the difference bwtn a kick which knocks someone back and a kick which breaks their ribs but might not knock them back. The last time that I fought my son I hit him with a spinning side kick that sent him across the room ... but I knew that THE KICK DID NOT HURT HIM ... it pushed him. OTOH I had to deal with a guy who outweighed me by about 60 pounds, stood about 6 inches taller than me, and had a ++funky/disrespectful/nasty attitude towards me in a testing situation. At one point I popped him (BANG!) with a side kick to the ribs to "lighten" him up a bit, make him back off and stop "trying to kill" ... found out later that I'd broken a few of his ribs. I did not kick "hard" but definitely much faster than the similar kick that sent my son sailing (same height/weight as me, 5'10", 165). Jok Sul baby. Glad to see that somebody realy got the point I was making about people "feeling" power in their work. Their feeling of power is actually a function of antagonistic muscles and kinesthetic sense. Experiencing episodes of moving faster than I thought I was willfully able to move, I did not feel a thing. Like, whoosh, and things were done (Aiya, I'd love to have that on demand ... back to repeat, repeat, repeat). When we find ourselves executing something "just right" the most important thing to do is to remember how it felt/feels. Remembering that feeling, the body can reproduce the experience. No jive, just another aspect of the intelligence of the critter that we are. When we remember the feeling we use kinesthetic sense ... more important than consideration of speed and/or power. If the movement is accurate and the kinesthetic part is right, both the speed and power can be delivered more efficiently. In my latest "teaching" venture, the very first thing that I told my prospective student was "Don't be in a hurry." It's one of the first things that my kung fu teacher told me. It remains and will always be valid advice. Whether we're talking about hands, feet, rifles or cruise missiles ... forget power (effect) and work on the underlying mechanics of delivery ... then scale, e.g., get the mechanics of your aim and fire smooth using a .22, then keeping it smooth and working back up to speed try a .32, .38, 9mm, .40, .45, and as Olajuwon said: "You get the idea". The underlying physics ain't gonna change. Mebbe some metaphysics minds will disagree, but that takes me into another story about an argument re: physics/metaphysics. Ended with me daring the metaphysicist to stand in front of a speeding bus :-) Some things just cain't be denied, eh?;-) Sorta like one who argued that there are people who can live on air alone ... uh, yeah ... OK ... but if you can't do it what's the point in talkin' about it? That won't help us accomplish anything. So too, if we honor the universe and the way that its intelligence has arranged for things to operate we can tap into it in ways that we might not expect. OK, I begin to go tangential ovah heeyuh ... about to take off in to the Code of Hammurabi compared to the Code of the Mayas and Yama/Niyama of Bharata Dharma ... hey, it's all relevant :-) There are corollaries btwn what I've said about dientifying and following the natural order of making our combative methods work and doing the same/similar in how we live life via-a-vis respect for self and others. BTW, I hope that the gentleman recovering from the brain infection is getting some form of physical therapy ... might be more appropriate than beginning study of a martial system. I'd get him involved in something like the Russian Zdorovye approach first: Recover, Coordinate, Optimize (function). I'm outta here. Mitakyoaseh, Mik ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:57:39 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #499 Hi, just a few thoughts: > It is generally accepted that the Filipino martial arts have their primary roots in India. I don´t think that this is generally accepted. > The Indian Godess of war is named Kali or some variant thereof. Emigration of Indians to the > Southern Philippines brought the Indian fighting arts in their purest and most complete form to > the Southern Philippines. Who knows today, that "purest and most complete form" came to the Philippines? > Over centuries these arts spread Northwards to the tip of the > Archipelago. As this spread occurred, primarily through oral and physical training, various > aspect of the arts were lost. We have learned, that the masters did not give their techniques easily to foreigners. It was more a "famliy thing" as was written in one of the last digests. The tribes werew not friendly to each other, more there were a lot of wars or feuds between the tribes. I have my poroblems beliving, that a system of fighting spread in this cultural surrounding from the south to the north or in any direction so that it could be somehow tracked today still. > Thus in the Southern Philippnes you will find the arts of Kali to > have more variety in techniques and weaponry than the Eskrima of the Central Islands, which > have more depth than Arnis as it is known in the Northern Islands. I would be courious, what the Masters and Grandmasters from the Visayas and Luzon say to this theory. This is funny. A few digests ago, a filipino member of the sigest (sorry, I forgot who) stated, that we simply don´t know what and how the Filipinos trained and how they accepted students etc. I have my doubts, that one can say now that in this multi cultural achipel of the Philippines with so many different tribes, langues and cultural backgrounds the martial arts started in the south and spread to the north. And on the way, many aspects of the art were lost. How can that be known, since it must have happened more than 500 years ago. I know that in the pre-spanish times even in Manila was a sultanat, but even the history of the name Kali is not clear as we have read in a recent digest, and it certainly is not undisputed, that the name Kali came from the indian godess, even Dan Inosant gives also other explanations. How about the influences of the other cultures like the chinese or the indonesian, the spanish etc.? > Since the reference in question was to the complexity of Kali, I am going > to include the list of weaponry used in Inosanto/laCoste Kali. Students in > Guro Dan's classes know that this list is what Guro Dan historically > classifies as "Kali" and that he has equivalent lists to categorize > Eskrima weaponry, and Arnis weaponry: > > WEAPONS OF INOSANTO/La COSTE KALI snip - 12 weapon categories - snip > We have students from many systems on this list and I am willing to bet > that 90% of them have had no exposure to yo-yo techniques, oar > techniques, or double axe techniques, all of which I consider a normal > part of Kali training. But I would never expect to find any these taught > by any of my Eskrima instructors simply because they are not part of the > traditional Eskrima training for the reasons I listed above I cannot accept this generalisation. The Inosanto/La COSTE KALI has these 12 categories. OK, good, a very complex and seemingly a very complete weapon system, but does thaat mean, that all Kali styles like Illustrissimo Kali, Sayoc Kali, Vilabrille Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali etc. all have these 12 categories? Or is this specific only to the Inosanto/La COSTE KALI? There are so many styles in the FMA, that you cannot categorize them only with the terms Arnis or Eskrima (these words were not even used/known in some languages/dialects in the Philippines). So when one style is called Garote or Baston for example, how can you say it is Arnis, Kali or Eskrima? All Filipinos I met did not care what you called it in general. Diony Canete said to me, when I asked him if I should call his Doce Pares arnis or Eskrima in an article: "Use what is best for you". It would be interesting, from which Province of the Philippines Jhonny LaCoste came from. Just my 0.02 cents Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: Ernie Aragon Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:00:31 +0800 Subject: eskrima: translation "Bago lang ang pangalan Kali Illustrisimo. Noon Olistrisimo Escrima ang tawag. Galing sa mga estudiante ni Tatang yung mga pangalan. Si Tatang mismo sinabi na walang pangalan ang "art" niya, di naman kailangan, basta patay ang kalaban. Luis Lema Lightning Scientific Arnis Illustrisimo Style Escrima LPIII" Well said. For those who can't understand Filipino, this is a translation of what Luis said: "The name 'Kali Illustrisimo' is just new. Before, it was once called Olistrisimo Escrima. The names came from the students of Tatang. It was Tatang himself who said that he had no name for his art. It really wasn't needed as long as the opponent/enemy is dead." Ernie Aragon, Jr. U.P. AngKAN ng Mandirigma-Lightning Scientific Kali Arnis System (LESKAS/LSAI) http://www.upakan.com ------------------------------ From: "Randy Brannan" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:25:17 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Power definition someone wrote: > Power = Weight * Speed I haven't looked at the digest in a while but I just came across this equation. I won't get involved in the rest of the discussion as unfortunately I don't have that much time but I thought a few might like to know the real definition of power. Power is the rate at which work is being done. If we let P equal power, W equal work done, and T equal time taken, the equation is P = W / T For a push, work equals force times distance. So if we let F equal force and distance equal L, the power equation for a push becomes P = (F L)/ T Since L/T is just the velocity, V, the equation becomes P = F V That is power equals force times velocity. This is applicable to a push but not really applicable to a punch. I'm not sure how to define work for a punch. Let's get back to the equation the original writer typed: > Power = Weight * Speed Clearly this is not power. Even though weight is equivalent to a force this only becomes the power of the punch if you are punching straight up vertically into the air and all the work you're doing is simply raising your arm and fist. I don't accept this as useful work done by a punch. However, the equation is very close to the definition of momentum which is Momentum = Mass * Velocity For the purpose of martial arts discussion, weight and mass can be thought of as identical although technically they are different. Velocity is also technically different from speed but that's probably not important for a martial arts discussion. However the difference between momentum and power is important so it's a good idea to be careful in how these terms are used. If you have a good argument, using correct definitions can only strengthen it. Randy B. ------------------------------ From: Terry Tippie Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:45:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power >From: gints@att.net >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:35:01 +0000 >Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power > >> Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 24 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 498 >> From: Mikal Keenan >> Date: 24 Oct 00 12:25:54 CDT >> Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power >> > >> It's all in the phycis muchacho. As long as we's in this universe... >> >> Force = Mass * Acceleration > >True. However, consider that >acceleration varies during the strike. A lot of >karate people seem to believe that their max power >is at the end of their "air "strike rather than before >it. I agree with the karate guys in this case. See my comments below. >That is, they believe that the most kinetic >energy is delivered when the fist stops. Exactly! >That's like stopping the baseball bat just before it >hits the ball. Here is where your logic is flawed. That deceleration happens inside the opponent's body, not before it. The more crisply the deceleration occurs the more energy transfer is concentrated onto one sight. >No one hits home runs that way. >That baseball technique is used for "bunting." > >> ... in other words, roughly ... >> >> Power = Weight * Speed > Um, guys, I have to disagree here. I would respectfully refer you to the original newtonian equation, F=MA. Acceleration is Distance/time (or speed) /time (i.e., the period of deceleration). In other words, you need to take into account how fast the impacting object decelerates. The more quickly the deceleration the more energy is transferred at once. The longer the period of deceleration is the less energy is transferred in any one place. Yes, you need the maximum body weight and torque behind the blow and you need a high speed upon impact. But these are attributes that the fighter sets in motion before the blow actually lands. In addition, the fighter has the ability to rapidly decelerate the blow after it lands (i.e., within the opponent's body) to affect power. It makes a difference. To put it another way, all of my boxing coaches taught more or less the same concept: "'Sting it' like it was hot iron". To really have a good knockout power you need to transfer that energy all at once. Ajarn Chai Sirisute and Alex Gong (Fairtex, current world champ, middleweight) have this in their kicks. I've also seen professional and amateur boxers who have this down real well. Go check it out. But to my experience there is a big difference between a big guy who can hit you hard with a big "whump" and a trained fighter who stings you with a "bang". With the former you feel it on the site of impact. It hurts but you can keep moving. With the latter you can feel it in your spine, and whatever part of your body that got hit just stops working. BTW there was a good article in "Scientific American" about 10 years ago on this subject that used high-speed photography to illustrate and measure the physics of board breaking. Lot of talk about elasticity, stress moduli and speed of deceleration. It was cool. Respectfully, Terry Tippie Pacifica, CA ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:42:11 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.