From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 25 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 501 In this issue: eskrima: Physics eskrima: Force, Power, etc. eskrima: Re: Speed/Power eskrima: Re: Dead art in the PI eskrima: hours 'in the saddle' ? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500 eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #499 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mathusula2@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:33:33 EDT Subject: eskrima: Physics Hi -- I'm new at posting but I've listened for quite a while. Thanks for all of the insights to all who have posted. I couldn't help myself and had to respond to this physics thread -- The equation which answers this problem is not Newton's law, but actually Impulse (J) = Force (F) x Time (T) (which actually equals momentum because if F = ma, and a (acceleration) = velocity/time (v/t) and you substitute these equations you get mass (m) times velocity (v) and the gentleman in the last posting was kind enough to state that momentum = mv). Anyways, The formula for Impulse states that the impulse is greater when the force is greater and/or when the time is greater. If the time is greater, then the punch or strike of any sort is slower and harder. This is the reason why baseball players follow through their swing on a homerun (the follow through increases the time that the ball comes in contact with the bat, i.e. there is an increased transfer of kinetic energy to the ball pushing it farther). The same theory applies to striking an opponent -- we all want to transfer the maximum amount of kinetic energy, so either increase the force or increase the time that your hand comes in contact with your opponent. The latter is a great deal easier to do, so for all intensive purposes, hard strikes are slower. Sorry for rambling on for so long, and thank you for allowing my voice to be heard. -- Mike ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 25 Oct 00 15:55:08 CDT Subject: eskrima: Force, Power, etc. > > Power = Weight * Speed > Clearly this is not power. Even though weight is equivalent OK, OK, relax awreddy ... I revised my presentation of the force equation to make it accessible to a broader audience for the sake of easy communication. No intellectual or egghead attempt at sounding smart, just trying to convey a concept to the average reader ... many of whom couldn't give a dang abotu physics, but can readily revise some behaviors via comprehension of the fundamental concept of generation of force ... the original topic which I ventured into in response to comments made regarding sacrificing speed or power by trying to enhance one or the other. The fundamental idea was/is that we do not sacrifice speed by pursuing power. My own training equation is: Accuracy, Flow, Speed, Power. Generation of power is an afterthought when the preceding steps are pursued appropriately. Optimization of any latter step is promoted by thorough exercise of preceding steps. That's my message. It applies to all "work". Now there's one for you to define, eh? Shall we use the common man's interpretation or the physical science equation? In this forum, I think that the former is more appropriate. We ain't teachin' physics here, btu we can all make use of some of its basic considerations as they might apply to cultivating athletic and/or martial skills. Enuf noise outta me ... I'm gon'lurk for a few months :-) Mitakyoaseh, Mik [OK, y'all don't jump on my spelling of 'mitakyoaseh' ... I ain't never seen it spelt anyway ... one of those Lakota terms for "We are all the same people."] ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: gints@att.net Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:11:55 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power > From: Terry Tippie > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:45:01 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power > > >From: gints@att.net > >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:35:01 +0000 > >Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power > > > >> Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 24 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 498 > >> From: Mikal Keenan > >> Force = Mass * Acceleration > > > >True. However, consider that > >acceleration varies during the strike. A lot of > >karate people seem to believe that their max power > >is at the end of their "air "strike rather than before > >it. > > I agree with the karate guys in this case. See my comments below. Since we're writing in a controversial style, I'll start off by saying "Hello, my friend. Let's rumble!" So, you're saying that max. energy is delivered when the fist is no longer in motion at the end of the strike? I don't believe you. A lot of karate guys believe this. I don't believe them either. That's equivalent to holding a motionless fist on a target. The fist is not moving at the end of the air strike. I'm sure that didn't mean this even though you wrote it. > >That is, they believe that the most kinetic > >energy is delivered when the fist stops. > > Exactly! Incorrect. The equation for kinetic energy = 0.5*mass*velocity*velocity. If the fist stops, the velocity is zero. For no velocity, the kinetic energy is 0. > >That's like stopping the baseball bat just before it > >hits the ball. > > Here is where your logic is flawed. That deceleration happens inside the > opponent's body, not before it. There's no flaw to the logic. I didn't state where the deceleration occurs relative to the target. Rather, I stated that when the "air punch" stops, the velocity is zero. At least we agree that the target should be responsible for most of the deceleration. You'll need to think about the "karate air punch" case in which there is no target. If you're going to try to convince me that all of the power is delivered at the end of the punch, when the fist is at zero velocity, we can look forward to a long discussion. > The more crisply the deceleration occurs > the more energy transfer is concentrated onto one sight. True. You are describing an inelastic collision in which kinetic energy is lost. However, you seem to be more interested in the target than the projectile. Kinetic energy increases with velocity. Force increases with acceleration. The greater the acceleration of the fist at the moment of impact, the greater the impact. Deceleration at the target is an independent matter that is controlled by the striker's deceleration and the target material. Again, a lot of karate guys think that a self- decelerated, "pulled" punch is powerful. The body tension delivers a false aura of power because antagonistic muscular contraction stabilizes the body against motion, resulting in lower velocities and accelerations. But, it sure feels good, and looks even better in front of the mirror. A problem with inspecting deceleration (which is the negative of the acceleration) is that you can rest your fist on the target and pull it away quickly. That's deceleration relative to the target. These "punches" have a lot of target- relative deceleration, but pack no power. > >No one hits home runs that way. > >That baseball technique is used for "bunting." > > > >> ... in other words, roughly ... > >> > >> Power = Weight * Speed > > > Um, guys, I have to disagree here. I would respectfully refer you to the > original newtonian equation, F=MA. Acceleration is Distance/time (or > speed) /time (i.e., the period of deceleration). In other words, you need > to take into account how fast the impacting object decelerates. The more You need to consider the velocity immediately before impact. F=MA, while certainly a proven relation, is not easily applied to punching or other impact situations until speed is considered. High accelerations can coexist with low velocities. For a given mass, kinetic energy is greater at higher speeds, independent of acceleration. In other words, if you push the pedal to the floor (acceleration) of your Ferrari, I'm sure that you would prefer to be hit by the car traveling at 10 mph rather than 100 mph. > quickly the deceleration the more energy is transferred at once. The > longer the period of deceleration is the less energy is transferred in any > one place. Yes, you need the maximum body weight and torque behind the > blow and you need a high speed upon impact. But these are attributes that Well, we're talking about speed and mass. Your other comments seem to indicate that you're not interested in talking about them. > the fighter sets in motion before the blow actually lands. In addition, > the fighter has the ability to rapidly decelerate the blow after it lands > (i.e., within the opponent's body) to affect power. It makes a difference. > > To put it another way, all of my boxing coaches taught more or less the > same concept: "'Sting it' like it was hot iron". To really have a good > knockout power you need to transfer that energy all at once. Ajarn Chai > Sirisute and Alex Gong (Fairtex, current world champ, middleweight) have > this in their kicks. I've also seen professional and amateur boxers who > have this down real well. Go check it out. But to my experience there is > a big difference between a big guy who can hit you hard with a big "whump" > and a trained fighter who stings you with a "bang". With the former you Trained fighters know how to maximize speed at impact. Come on, dude. I'm growing weary of pointing out that you talk about the importance of speed in just about every paragraph. > feel it on the site of impact. It hurts but you can keep moving. With the I've been hit by slow, big guys. This is the point at which we consider the energetical contribution of the kinetic energy components velocity and mass. Large masses can dominate even the square of low velocities. That helps explain why slow big guys can hit harder than slow small guys. > latter you can feel it in your spine, and whatever part of your body that > got hit just stops working. Boxers and boxing coaches know how to do it. However, most don't really know how to describe forces and velocities with Newtonian relationship. Their lack of knowledge in physics doesn't seem to affect their winning performance. Likewise, knowledge of physics equations won't improve your strike delivery unless you are able to apply the knowledge. ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Dead art in the PI > Let me address several issues here. I spent ten days in Cebu in 1989 and > 98% of the people I met such as taxi drivers, store guards, or bartenders > had never heard of Eskrima. Or the Canete family for that matter. I > didn't take this to mean that the arts didn't exist , just that they were > not general knoweledge. Much can be lost in one generation. Yesterday I met an 82 year old man from Philippines. When I ask people, I don't use Kali, Arnis or Esc(k)rima, I ask if they know Kahoy, baston, yantok, or olisi. This way I know what language they speak, and how informed they are. Most say they don't know anything. Well, this man told me he doesn't know, only sef-defense with his hands. When I showed him some of my bruises on my arms and back from stickfighting, I thought I saw a little twinkle in his eye. So I pulled up the web site on the comp, and showed him some of the videos-Unleashing the Beast, Closing the Gap IX & X, and Ending the fight-which ends with a slight fracture in the foot and the fighter dropping. When he waw this, next thing you know, he is telling me of times when he "parried"(his words) a knife attacker because he didn't have time to pull his gun. He was in the military at that time. Then he started to talk about Doce Pares, and I mentioned Cacoy Canete, and he said yes and also started to mention the brothers as well. But 15 minutes ago, that man didn't know a thing about a cane he said. And honesty, how many times have you asked an old man about his knowledge of the stick when you saw his muscles on his outer forearm, and he said he didn't know. Here in Hawaii, I am brought up with a very much Philippine culture so there is alot of interaction with different people. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:59:43 PDT Subject: eskrima: hours 'in the saddle' ? A recent article in Black Belt magazine (therefore it must be true :) indicated that the average MA studio owner worked about 40 to 70 hours per week (on the average). For you average studio owners out there :), does that sound about right? ~55 hours per week? Just curious... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Powrscrol@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:08:48 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500 In a message dated 10/25/00 12:44:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << At one point I popped him (BANG!) with a side kick to the ribs to "lighten" him up a bit, make him back off and stop "trying to kill" ... found out later that I'd broken a few of his ribs. I did not kick "hard" but definitely much faster than the similar kick that sent my son sailing (same height/weight as me, 5'10", 165). Jok Sul baby. >> Sounds familiar. Several yrs. ago I had a sparring partner who I'd worked regularly with for about 5 yrs. We always went full-speed, full-power (no softening of weapons), and (practically) never got hurt because our control was so finely honed. He once broke my nose during a 2-man form -- but, that's not sparring. 1 night I roundhouse kicked him in the ribs. The kick was very fast & snappy - -- but it just BARELY touched him (I didn't even feel the contact). It cracked 2 of his ribs -- the ONLY sparring injury we ever had (outside of normal bruises, etc.)! He said, "It's a good thing you didn't MEAN to break my ribs -- imagine what would have happened then!" I thought about that quite a bit. Steve W. ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:45:57 +1000 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #499 >Let me address several issues here. I spent ten days in Cebu in 1989 and >98% of the people I met such as taxi drivers, store guards, or bartenders >had never heard of Eskrima. Or the Canete family for that matter. I >didn't take this to mean that the arts didn't exist , just that they were >not general knoweledge. Much can be lost in one generation. I defer to your knowledge, I've lived in Cebu over the past 15 years off and on for about 3 years. One of the lesson I've learnt is that locals will only tell you what they want you to know. Also as I said before you need to know where to look. If 98% of the people you asked didn't know either what escrima was or who the Canetes where I can only offer two answers. (1) They can't read. (the guards outside the Silver Dollar are pretty dumb) go to the local paper the Sun Daily and ask for cuttings on "Cacoy Canete" or "Diony Canete". Also in some schools escrima is taught in PE. The WEKAF tourny in 89 got a fair bit of press also. I'm supprised that store guards didn't know "Cacoy" as he used to have a security business??? (2)They didn't want to tell you. >And in an Archipelago of of over 7000 islands, to expect a commonality of >terminology, much less a commonality over the last 100 years, is a base >ignorance of linguistics. I was only talking about the Visayas. From my experience there is a commonality of terminology around the Visayas. I've travelled to Bohol, Cebu, Leyte and Negros (Occidental) they all use the terms "pang olisi", "escrima" or "arnis". Tagalog and Visayan are the two main lingustic groups and cover about 90% of the total population. Dialect is different to language. >Let's go back to Guro Dan. In the last 13 years of my training with him, >every single class I have ever taken and observed is composed of at least >25% of historical education regarding the techniques presented and the >cultures they come from. Of course this is to be expected from a man who >taught history for 20 years in the public school system. I have taken >classes that terminologies for techniques were presented in nine different >languages including at least three Filipino dialects and Sanskrit. In many >of these classes he would bring in books and documentation to support his >position. I was shocked in 88 at a seminar (in Australia) when someone asked him whether he had travelled to the Philippines personally he said "no". Maybe he has travelled and experienced first hand what the Philippines is like since then. Another discrepancy regarding Villabrille in Guro Dans book. "In the Cedu municipal Museum they have a giant picture of Lapu Lapu the man who killed Magellan. Next in size is the certificate and picture of Grandmaster Floro Villabrille". In 87 (checked again in 96 just before the Museum was refurbished) when I went there I could not find any picture or reference to Floro Villabrille anywhere. Through the years I have asked a number of instructors and they didn't know who he was. Dizon on the other hand was recognised but I was informed that when a "death match" was arranged he did not turn up. Others have also privately e-mailed similar comments. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:30:52 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.