From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #502 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 26 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 502 In this issue: eskrima: FMA book eskrima: (No Subject) eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 eskrima: "kali" thread ahead... eskrima: SciAm...oh boy! eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: Kali Southern Philippines? Yoyo? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #497 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 eskrima: Power etc. eskrima: what makes us tic {sic} eskrima: Speed/Power eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:27:22 PDT Subject: eskrima: FMA book > Another discrepancy regarding Villabrille in Guro Dans book. It is a given that there are many errors in that book, and some which seem to have a life of their own, e.g. the Leatherneck story and the .45 story. But there is also a lot of interesting and accurate info that it provides. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:43:55 -0700 Subject: eskrima: (No Subject) Tom Meadows wrote: " We have students from many systems on this list and I am willing to bet that 90% of them have had no exposure to yo-yo techniques, oar techniques, or double axe techniques, all of which I consider a normal part of Kali training. But I would never expect to find any these taught by any of my Eskrima instructors simply because they are not part of the traditional Eskrima training for the reasons I listed above" I totally disagree with these and some of your other statements. First, I doubt if I gave you all the money you needed to find a school in the Philippines that taught these weapons, that you would be able to find one. Whoever told you that these weapons are an important or standard part of training in the Filipino martial arts has obviously never been there. I know it doesn't make our arts very glamorous, but most Filipino systems consist of no more than single and double sticks, single knife, espada y daga, and empty hands. Furthermore, Dan Inosanto's program is NOT "Kali", other than the fact that he calls it such. "Kali", which may have existed at one time, has evolved into Eskrima or Arnis--like it or not. Please, point me to anyone who is not calling their weapons art anything other than that. Inosanto's "Kali" is a product of Cabales', Giron's, and Villabraille's ESKRIMA. Perhaps the names were changed to Kali, but it was Eskrima when he learned it... Maybe you couldn't find anyone who knew anything about the Filipino arts because you were asking about "Kali". I beg to differ; I have never met a Filipino, young or old, who has never heard of Eskrima or Arnis. By the way, it is not generally accepted that Kali/FMA originated in India. I'll have to go back and reread you post, because I can't remember what else I disagreed with. Jay Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:48:41 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 Just my $. 02 worth on the speed/power thing.....I originally came from an American Kenpo background as far as "martial arts" were concerned (back then most martial artists didn't consider boxing a true m.a.) and we were always taught to kick with focus and power. One day I ran into a friend of a friend, an exchange student from France. As I was always ready to cross hands with anyone and he said that he did "a little kick boxing" we sparred. That was my first experience of being on the receiving end of a Savate kick. As the Greek guy said "Ureka" (also damn that really hurt) I learned a lot that day. Speed and accuracy are a really deadly combo. And never spar with anyone that smiles and says "they do a little______ [fill in the blank). Peace and respects, Bear ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 04:37:51 +0100 Subject: eskrima: "kali" thread ahead... On the "kali" thread (again...sigh)...[Warning: The ff. post is lengthy and only on the "kali" thread. Please bypass if necessary.] (Greetings and salutations Mr. Meadows (Tommy the Whip?)...long time, no see... Gruess Gott, Herr Knuettel...nice comments btw) Just a few comments n IMHOs: TMeadows > It is generally accepted that the Filipino martial arts have their primary roots in India. D. Knuettel>I don´t think that this is generally accepted. Tenrec: Ditto...my first reaction: generally accepted by whom? TM> The Indian Godess of war is named Kali or some variant thereof. Emigration of Indians to the > Southern Philippines brought the Indian fighting arts in their purest >and most complete form to the Southern Philippines. 10rec: I do not know what sources were cited for this, but the extent of this "Indian influence" on the Pre-hispanic Philippines is still under debate. One school of thought among Fil. anthro/history professionals is that this influence is "exaggerated" (please refer to "Filipino Prehistory: Rediscovering Precolonial Heritage" by F. Landa Jocano) TM >Over centuries these arts spread Northwards to the tip of the Archipelago. As this spread >occurred, primarily through oral and physical training, various aspect of the arts were lost. 10rec: Again an interesting THEORY, but what supporting evidence is there that demonstrates this? "various aspects of the arts were lost": how do we know this, if they were indeed lost? Who makes this claim? D. K. >We have learned, that the masters did not give their techniques easily >last digests. The tribes werew not friendly to each other, more there >were a lot of wars or feuds between the tribes. >I have my poroblems beliving, that a system of fighting spread in this >cultural surrounding from the south to the north or in any direction so >that it could be somehow tracked today still. 10rec: Again...ditto! More importantly, no one has as yet taken the time to do a formal scientific study on this. Therefore how can anyone defend this theory? (Please show your solutions.) TM> Thus in the Southern Philippnes you will find the arts of Kali to > have more variety in techniques and weaponry than the Eskrima of the Central Islands, which > have more depth than Arnis as it is known in the Northern Islands. DK>I would be courious, what the Masters and Grandmasters from the Visayas >and Luzon say to this theory. 10rec: Mr. Meadows, how can one make claims as "more variety" and "more depth"? One would have to assume the speaker has studied all of the existing systems in the Phil., and has systematically and scientifically compared each and every one of them. And then, how does one interpret "depth" and "variety"; how is one style deeper than another? And if one style uses 21 weapons and another just one weapon, does that mean the 21-weapon style has more "variety?" Even if the actual movements are exactly the same for each use of the 21 weapons? TM> Since the reference in question was to the complexity of Kali, I am going > to include the list of weaponry used in Inosanto/laCoste Kali. Students in > Guro Dan's classes know that this list is what Guro Dan historically > classifies as "Kali" and that he has equivalent lists to categorize > Eskrima weaponry, and Arnis weaponry: > > WEAPONS OF INOSANTO/La COSTE KALI snip - 12 weapon categories - snip TM> We have students from many systems on this list and I am willing to bet > that 90% of them have had no exposure to yo-yo techniques, oar > techniques, or double axe techniques, all of which I consider a normal > part of Kali training. But I would never expect to find any these taught > by any of my Eskrima instructors simply because they are not part of the > traditional Eskrima training for the reasons I listed above DK>I cannot accept this generalisation. >The Inosanto/La COSTE KALI has these 12 categories. OK, good, a very >complex and seemingly a very complete weapon system, but does thaat >mean, that all Kali styles like Illustrissimo Kali, Sayoc Kali, >Vilabrille Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali etc. all have these 12 categories? >Or is this specific only to the Inosanto/La COSTE KALI? >There are so many styles in the FMA, that you cannot categorize them >only with the terms Arnis or Eskrima (these words were not even >used/known in some languages/dialects in the Philippines). So when one >style is called Garote or Baston for example, how can you say it is >Arnis, Kali or Eskrima? 10rec> IMHO on the classifications: what were his basis(es) for these categories? I am curious as to how one weapon is classified as an Arnis weapon, another is classified as an Eskrima weapon, yet another as a "kali" weapon. One more note, Mr. Meadows: Are the things you wrote directly from Mr. Inosanto's writings (reproduced directly as quotations), or are you giving them from memory? If they are Mr. D. Inosanto's words, then I cannot at this time agree with his statements. I can only take them as Mr. Inosanto's "opinions" or his "theory" on the history and development of Arnis, and strictly his interpretations of the facts he has at hand. Also, from what you have posted, he apparently makes broad generalizations and conclusions, the bases of which I have yet to see. Until I am able to examine his sources, I shall remain respectful of his right to his opinion, and of his right to pose his theory or theories, but unconvinced of their validity. I have read a number of other "theories" on the origins of Arnis, but all lack scholarly support. Certain historical references have been cited, but, upon closer examination, it becomes apparent that the author has taken a "fact" and "extended" it--that is, he takes the reader from A to F, without the benefit of truly knowing (or having evidence either via documentation or oral tradition) B, C, D, or E. If you can provide me with the references that Mr. Inosanto used to formulate his theory, and/or any field research data that he may have available on this topic and that he would be willing to share with the rest of us, I would be more that willing to look them over carefully. We may never actually get to the bottom of this, but the study of the origin of Arnis is a most intriguing pursuit. Please feel free to email me privately to discuss (or dialogue) on this (or any FMA) topic... Unconvinced, tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 04:38:04 +0100 Subject: eskrima: SciAm...oh boy! Terry Tippie wrote: >BTW there was a good article in "Scientific American" about 10 years ago >on >this subject that used high-speed photography to illustrate and measure the physics of board breaking. Lot of talk about elasticity, stress moduli and >speed of deceleration. It was cool. Do you remember which issue? Or at least if it was a standalone article or an "Amateur Scientist" article? tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:52:12 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >I defer to your knowledge, I've lived in Cebu over the past 15 years off and >on for about 3 years. One of the lesson I've learnt is that locals will only >tell you what they want you to know. Also as I said before you need to know >where to look. If 98% of the people you asked didn't know either what >escrima was or who the Canetes where I can only offer two answers. > >(1) They can't read. (the guards outside the Silver Dollar are pretty dumb) >go to the local paper the Sun Daily and ask for cuttings on "Cacoy Canete" >or "Diony Canete". Also in some schools escrima is taught in PE. The WEKAF >tourny in 89 got a fair bit of press also. I'm supprised that store guards >didn't know "Cacoy" as he used to have a security business??? > >(2)They didn't want to tell you. > Agreed on # 2. My family has employees very well versed in the arts. Some have worked for the family for THREE generations. Been in the Arts for a couple of decades, only found out what they knew a couple of years ago. >I was shocked in 88 at a seminar (in Australia) when someone asked him >whether he had travelled to the Philippines personally he said "no". Maybe >he has travelled and experienced first hand what the Philippines is like >since then. > With all due respect to guro Dan. I've traveled to the US regularly since I was three (36 now) for vacations and business. I've lived there for 4 years (school), and have studied many aspects of the US culture and history. (Certainly with more reference material at my disposal than he has at his). I have American friends. I represent American companies in the Philippines. For the life of me, I STILL can't figure you guys out. I would be lying if I called myself an "Expert on US affairs". Maybe our standards for historical and cultural expertise should be raised a little. Como dicen los Espanoles, el hombre con un ojo es rey en el pais' de ciegos. LPIII ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:10:31 EDT Subject: eskrima: Kali Southern Philippines? Yoyo? Tom Meadow, With all due respect, we do believed that the FMA has influence by many people who came to the Philippines as invaders and friendly traders. But where do you get this ideas the FMA is Indian origin? Especially the Southern Philippines? I am sorry I am lost here. I am already confused about the Kali term, now I am more confused about the real History of this Kali arts. This word "Kali" is not even exist in the Southern Philippines, nor recognized as Martial arts. Oh I would say, in my knowledge. Anyway I am not historian, orHistory teacher. The only thing I can voice out is by blood I am Filipino, Speak three dialect out of 76 basic dialect in the Philippines, practiced all my life in the arts of Arnis, Eskrima and Estokada, basically, and I am just "Kali-ngkingan lamang ang nakakikilala kumpara kay Guro Dan"(not as popular as compared to Guro Dan). But I know, that even you mentioned all the weapon you can think to your FMA Curricullum. This is not the reason for me to believed that the "Kali Term is now and accepted term in the Philippines especially in Southern parts. But dont worry Guro Dan and other "Pinoy" Filipino Martial artist are all "Kali-pi" Sa dugo, sa kulay, at sa puso(brother by blood, color, and by heart), We are all blood Pinoy. >> It is generally accepted that the Filipino martial arts have their primary >>roots in India. The Indian Godess of war is named Kali or some variant >>thereof. Emigration of Indians to the Southern Philippines brought the >>Indian fighting arts in their purest and most complete form to the >>Southern Philippines. Over centuries these arts spread Northwards to the >>tip of the Archipelago. As this spread occurred, primarily through oral >>and physical training, various aspect of the arts were lost. Thus in the >>Southern Philippnes you will find the arts of Kali to have more variety in >>techniques and weaponry than the Eskrima of the Central Islands, which >>have more depth than Arnis as it is known in the Northern Islands. >> Since the reference in question was to the complexity of Kali, I am going >>to include the list of weaponry used in Inosanto/laCoste Kali. Students in >> Guro Dan's classes know that this list is what Guro Dan historically >>classifies as "Kali" and that he has equivalent lists to categorize >>Eskrima weaponry, and Arnis weaponry: I always wanted to see more FMA demo and see than to hear what they can do, that I cannot do, or to see what else I could absor to add to my weaponry. Basically if I can swing a stick, I can swing, Sword, Knife, Bandana, Panyo, Kamay, tungkod, payong, abaniko etc. To make story short. Most FMA are very good on adapting any weapon available to their hand. If available is pin, or needle, I will used needle, if the available is hammer, I will use hammer, saw, hose, gasoline pump.etc. No one really questioning the effectiveness of the variety of weapon. I think what we would like to know is to clean the history just little to enlightened all the bigginners and old pratitioner of the arts. Okay Kali is accepted term here in the US. I would not be surprice if this tread keep coming up, because of this mis-written documemtation of the mother arts of the Philippine Martial arts. By the way you mentioned the Yoyo is one of your weapon? Do you know where the Yo-yo are first invented and manupactured in the Philippines? For the record the Yoyo is is first seen by the Spaniards, when they arrived in Paete, Laguna on 1580, on that time the Paete was ruled by Malayan Chiftain Gat Panguil, Gat Sugayan, Gat Pulintan and Gat Salacab and the local chieftain was Lacam Pauid. and the Local authority was Gat Malangsangan. It was said that the local native found in Paete are great wood workers, and that is well keep up to now and well documented and the first names of Yoyo is "Pukol-Sambut" Throw and catch. Just thinking maybe you are interested to the small history portion of the FMA Yoyo. Well, Tom, I have highest respect to all of the Pioneer FMArtist who promote the arts before me. To Guro Dan Inosanto, whom try hard to put the FMA in the History. I wish to leave you with peace, no offense just my one cent, contribution to the member. Ang inyong Kali-pi sa Sining, Your Brother in the arts, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:27:22 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #497 Guro Nate, This interesting, Do you know I was Born in Barrio Kinali, Paete, Laguna. Its means my town is pure FMA town. Maybe. maybe just coincidence. Anyway great post. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet << Hiligaynon, the word "kali-an" or "kinali" or "pagkali" refers to digging, or scraping. The word "kinalis" or "kinalisan" >> ------------------------------ From: "hudginsg" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:14:18 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 > From: Ray Terry <> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:59:43 PDT > Subject: eskrima: hours 'in the saddle' ? > > A recent article in Black Belt magazine (therefore it must be true :) > indicated that the average MA studio owner worked about 40 to 70 hours per > week (on the average). > > For you average studio owners out there :), does that sound about right? > ~55 hours per week? > > Just curious... > > Ray Terry Ray: One question. Worked 55 hours per week or "worked out" 55 hours per week? As someone that owns his own business (not MA studio) if you don't work 40 to 70 hours a week you might not make it, especially if your are the janitor, book keeper, advertising exec, instructor, secretary, computer expert, etc. Open your studio for the morning work out (1 hour). Clean up the dojo, do the books, do the mid morning class. Break for lunch. Do public relations, return phone calls on the answer machine. Be back for after school classess. Get there for the adult classes. Get the testing ready, etc, etc, etc. Go home about 9:00 to 10:00 pm. Yeah. If it is a full time business that puts food on your table, 55 hours is probably a minimum. Don't forget the Saturday classes, the tournaments, etc. Gary H. ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:02:18 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #501 Hi, > I was shocked in 88 at a seminar (in Australia) when someone asked him > whether he had travelled to the Philippines personally he said "no". The rumors I have heared about that is, that due to the sentece in his book (quote): "Eskrima in the Philippines is dead they say. The proven fighteres, the adventouros ones, have all left" he got threats to get challenged or killed, if he ever comes to the Philippines. I don´t know if this is true, or just a rumor (perhaps some of the ED members, who train regulary with him can comment on that), but if you take this threat seriously, a good reason not to go there... Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 26 Oct 00 08:32:26 CDT Subject: eskrima: Power etc. > increase the time that your hand comes in contact > with your opponent. The latter is a great deal > easier to do, so for all intensive purposes, > hard strikes are slower. Oy vey, so what is a hard strike? gints@att.com has said a lot of what I might have gotten into if I wanted to get into this any deeper ... but to do so is rather pointless ... an intellectual exercise ... and intellectualism bores the heck out of me. Application is another story. In application it would not be very wise to increase the time that your hand or any other tool is in contact with your opponent. From experience, what is the difference between a hard strike and breaking force? When we know what we can do we can simply do it, no intellectual exercise required. This reminds me of a guy who came into a workshop that I offered not long ago and started to debate with me about footwork, power in throwing, etc. ad nauseam. In a gentlemanly way I finally decided to help him, asked him to show me what he was talking about. Long story short he got dumped on his arse a few times ... contacted me to apologize a few days later. Nice guy, but very deluded re: realities in fighting ... too intellectual. A funny forya: he'd never studied any FMA but argued the names and origins of Filipino martial arts! Made me want to pick up a stick :-) Bottom line (reiterating): my message is that one should pursue accurate posture/alignment and smooth flowing movement before emphasizing speed, and both of these before emphasizing power. Accuracy, Flow, Speed, Power. All the other words are no more than tangential distractions as far as I'm concerned ... a waste of time. In my own experience I can contrast being sidekicked by a big guy who outweighed my by about 80 pounds ... it launched me up off the ground and across the room ... it was weird up there waiting to come back down :-) No jive, like something outta da movies! OTOH, from experience I can contrast facing a similar guy who outweighed me by 40 to 60 pounds whose ribs were broken by my sidekick. From practice and experience we can know the difference, deliberation of equations won't make that happen. My use of the physics approach was to ground the concept(s) that I was presenting in reality, but that can quickly get lost in the intellectualism that might follow ... as we've seen. Again, the message is like Shih-Fu said "Take your time. If you do something 10,000 times, then you know it. No one can take that away from you." Essence: Don't rush to develop power ... that's "unenlightened." Might be better to learn how to relax first :-) and carry that over through development of accuracy, flow, speed with power as an afterthought. Mitakyoaseh, Mik ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 7:49:23 PDT Subject: eskrima: what makes us tic {sic} > For the life of me, I STILL can't figure you guys out. I would be lying if > I called myself an "Expert on US affairs". Not to worry. We can't figure ourselves out... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:26:20 EDT Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power In a message dated 10/25/00 7:09:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << However, you seem to be more interested in the target than the projectile. Kinetic energy increases with velocity. Force increases with acceleration. The greater the acceleration of the fist at the moment of impact, the greater the impact. >> The formulas we use are Momemtum (force) = Mass x velocity Impact however is a funny little witch __Velocity (squared)__ x Mass Impact = 2 So velocity squared divided by two times mass equals impact. At least that is what a physicist told me. In order to hit "Hard" you need both of these, and here's the rub. They need to be moving on the same line. NOT as so many martial arts styles teach on seperate lines. A whole lot of stuff has crept in to the MA which causes body and blow to be moving in different directions and once you start looking for this energy "loss" it will become clear how much energy is literally being "pissed" away. While decelration is really important for energy transference, if you have an impact line and a force line going off in different directions, you ain't gonna hit hard. Your fist can be flying, but if it doesn't have your body mass movig along the same line behind it, forget it. Do this.... take the momentum thing with your body weight as the mass and figure your body is moving at 10 miles an hour. Come up with an answer. Now do the impact formula with 30 mphs and say your arm's weight is five pounds. Compare the differences. That is what happens if your body (momentum) is moving a different way from your blow (Impact) Now if your force line and your impact line are the same, do the impact formula again, with your fist's acceleration (velocity) of 30mph but up the mass to your bodyweight. All of a sudden it becomes kind of obvious why these two lines have to work together for both speed and power. Animal ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 8:01:26 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #502 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.