From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 26 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 503 In this issue: eskrima: the studio/business phone ? eskrima: (No Subject) eskrima: Re: The Kali, Indian Origin debate eskrima: Re: Kali: the Mother art eskrima: Re: Speed/Power Revisited eskrima: Force, Power, etc. eskrima: Kali? Collie? oh never mind eskrima: Speed/Power eskrima: Re: The physics and the physical eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500] eskrima: What's in a name? eskrima: Physics of hitting eskrima: Re: Physics or Physical eskrima: Not so Physic-al eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 8:05:25 PDT Subject: eskrima: the studio/business phone ? > .... Do public relations, return phone calls on the answer machine. Do folks find that using an answering machine works well? Seems like most folks I know these days use a cell phone and call forwarding and never let the studio phone go to the machine, except for the late night hours. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:52:07 -0700 Subject: eskrima: (No Subject) Tom Meadows wrote: "And in an Archipelago of of over 7000 islands, to expect a commonality of terminology, much less a commonality over the last 100 years, is a base ignorance of linguistics. " It is true that there are many dialects in the Philippines, but does this mean that Filipinos can't communicate with each other? Not at all, no matter what dialect you speak, one also speaks Tagalog, especially today. As far as the names for Eskrima and Arnis, those are the only terms you will find. Perhaps you might find another name used beside the name, like "Kabaroan Eskrima", but I challenge you to find a style simply named "Garote" or "Yantok". I think maybe we are taking the Inosanto book "Filipino Martial Arts" as an authoritative text without considering the testimony of those who lived in the Philippines and knows better than even Mr. Inosanto. Jay Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: Robbie Trinidad Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:43:42 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: The Kali, Indian Origin debate Hello, > From: "Tom Meadows" > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:21:03 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Kali: the Mother art > > Several Issues ago David Eke wrote: > > "Escrima" or "Arnis" was always used. IMO the word "Kali" only really > started to get used after Dan > none > <"Kali". We can't even say for certain that Kali came from the Visayas. > And in an Archipelago of of over 7000 islands, to expect a commonality of > terminology, much less a commonality over the last 100 years, is a base > ignorance of linguistics. True. But whether there is a mother art or not, there's no way of knowing whether it was called "kali". > Let's go back to Guro Dan. In the last 13 years of my training with him, > every single class I have ever taken and observed is composed of at least > 25% of historical education regarding the techniques presented and the > cultures they come from. Of course this is to be expected from a man who > taught history for 20 years in the public school system. I have taken > classes that terminologies for techniques were presented in nine different > languages including at least three Filipino dialects and Sanskrit. In many > of these classes he would bring in books and documentation to support his > position. Unfortunately, a lot of the theories and thinking about Philippine prehistory has been debunked or seriously questioned due to recent findings in the past decade or so. Some findings are so recent that debunked theories such as Otley Beyer's wave migration theory is still being taught in Philippine schools today. > > So when Guro Dan presents a historical perspective, I listen. With the sole exception of the Laguna Copperplate inscriptions, Filipino history doesn't start until 1521. Nothing before that can be said with any certainty. > This is > what I remember of his teachings on the use of the terminologies of > Eskrima, Arnis and Kali: > > It is generally accepted that the Filipino martial arts have their primary > roots in India. In the 1960's local Karate practitioners believed that Karate has it's roots in India, and by extension the same holds for other MAs as well. The best that can be said is that FMAs might have been influenced by Indian Arts. Saying that FMAs had their primary roots in the Indian Arts is quite a stretch. That may be true for some FMA but not all. > The Indian Godess of war is named Kali or some variant > thereof. Probably a coincidence. As anybody on this list knows, "kris" is the name for the Muslim sword used in the South. In ancient baybayin writing form, this would be syllabicated as "ka-ris". Since in baybayin, the closing consonant isn't written, the written form is "ka-ri" dropping the "s". However, baybayin doesn't have a symbol for "ra/ri", the closest being "di" or "li". Therefore the final written form would be "ka-li", or more specifically: . --- /\/ | | --- | Those proficient in reading baybayin in the old days who would read the characters in context and pronounce "ka-li" as "kris". Those unfamiliar with the word "kris" will read the written form as "kali" just like most Filipinos will read Arkansas as "Ar-can-sas" instead of "Ar-can-saw". > Emigration of Indians to the Southern Philippines brought the > Indian fighting arts in their purest and most complete form to the > Southern Philippines. Out of the 418 languages in India (11 of which are extinct), 72% belong to the Indo-Aryan language family and 25% are Dravidian. No Austronesian languages are listed. Almost all of the languages in the Philippines (168 living, 3 extinct) belong to the Austronesian language family. The only non-Austronesian languages listed are: Chavacano - Creole Chinese (Mandarin, Min Nan, Yue) - Sino-Tibetan English - Indo-European Spanish - Indo-European If Indians emigrated to the Philippines, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't leave their language here despite leaving their religion and fighting art, if at all. > Over centuries these arts spread Northwards to the > tip of the Archipelago. As this spread occurred, primarily through oral > and physical training, various aspect of the arts were lost. I would like to know when this supposed migration occurred. The Otley Beyer migration theory posits three waves of migrants to the archipelago starting around 50,000 years ago. However, recent archeological findings have found stone tools dating as far back as 500,000 years ago. I think that's a lot of time for the locals to develop their own fighting system. > Thus in the > Southern Philippines you will find the arts of Kali to have more variety in > techniques and weaponry than the Eskrima of the Central Islands, which > have more depth than Arnis as it is known in the Northern Islands. The only thing that's known is that Practitioners in the South and Central Philippines are more open and are in the forefront of pushing their arts abroad. Those in the North however are more secretive. > We have students from many systems on this list and I am willing to bet > that 90% of them have had no exposure to yo-yo techniques, Recent findings tend to support the hypothesis that the yo-yo was never a weapon, but a tool for making string. Regards - -- [=======================================================================] [ Roberto B. Trinidad | E-mail: deadlock@mozcom.com ] [ CEO - World Domination NetCorp. | http://www2.mozcom.com/~deadlock/ _ ] [ Freelance 3D Graphics Animator | Quezon City, Philippines _ // ] [ and Desktop Videographer | Member: Team AMIGA \X/ ] [-----------------------------------------------------------------------] [ If you want to be a rebel, be yourself. ] [=======================================================================] ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:05:03 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Kali: the Mother art Without going into a long detailed post, I will simply say that the term "Kali" is not known or used throughout the Philippines Islands as a name for the fighting arts. The term is used mostly in the Visayan region of the country. In the North (Luzon) and the South (Mindanao) the word "kali" is not used, therefore the position that "kali is the mother art" is not accurate. It may be such in the Visayan region and most of the prominant Filipino Masters teaching in the U.S. are from that region, therefore the idea may seem to be accurate and true, but talking with Filipinos from the other areas will cause one to conclude that Kali is not the mother art! EBrook _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Jeff T. Inman" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:00:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power Revisited A couple of folks have distinguished kinetic energy from power: Power = Mass * Velocity KE = 1/2 Mass * (Velocity squared) If kinetic energy is what we're interested in, the fact that it involves velocity SQUARED has some interesting implications: (1) If you hit someone with a stick that's twice as heavy but moving at the same speed, you double the power and you double the kinetic energy. (2) If you hit someone with the original stick but twice as fast, you double the power but you quadruple the kinetic energy. If kinetic energy really is the relevant factor, then you'd do better to hit harder than you would to carry a heavier stick, assuming you're already carrying a stick that is as heavy as you can swing quickly. I know that there are guys that I've fought with who will simply not be deterred with a light stick. You can not hit them hard enough with it to make an impression on them. I'm guessing this only seems to contradict the lessons from the kinetic energy equations, and that what is actually going on is that we're already swinging the heavy sticks at pretty fast speeds (perhaps limited by the viscosity of air), and so with a stick half as massive, it's hard to swing it enough faster to gain the advantage of the velocity being squared. Just some thoughts. Jeff Inman ------------------------------ From: "Randy Brannan" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:45:44 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Force, Power, etc. Mikal Keenan wrote: >OK, OK, relax awreddy ... Thanks for the advice Mik. I'm feeling more relaxed already. >No intellectual or egghead attempt at sounding smart, I never wrote, implied, or even thought you were making an "egghead" attempt at sounding smart. I would consider that sort of name calling to be childish. >just trying to convey a >concept to the average reader ... From reading your posts in the past I've seen that you know a lot more about biology and anatomy than I do. If, on this forum, I made an argument based on an erroneous assumption about anatomy, say that the liver pumps blood and dumps urine into the pancreas, I would expect to be corrected on it very quickly, possibly by you. I would then try to correct my argument to reflect reality. Similarly if someone bases an argument on a misunderstanding of a very fundamental concept of physics, it seems reasonable to correct that misunderstanding. > It applies to all "work". Now there's one for you >to define, eh? Shall we use the common man's interpretation or the physical >science equation? If you're going to use an argument based on physics then you'll need to use a definition of work that a physicist will accept. Otherwise you can end up with goobledygook. The equations refer to one thing but your words talk about something else. It's kind of like the redefinist fallacy from philosophy. (Philosophy is another area where you probably know more than me.) By the way, if I'm wrong about redefinist fallacy, I won't be upset if you correct me. Thanks for the reply Mik, Randy B. ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:00:23 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Kali? Collie? oh never mind A Howl of Greeting to All: Tom Meadows is a friend of mine and I think his recent post was written with the best of intentions, but in my humble opinion I think he may not have gotten some things quite right. I don't have the time to go back and parse everything he wrote and all the responses, but off the top of my head a couple of points: I think Tom is mistaken with his comment about India. Recently I showed Guro I. the first video of our second series (the second is now out, more on this in another post) titled "The Grandfathers Speak". One of the things he specifically commented to me was that he was glad that I had put in GM Ben Largusa's discussion about how the art had come from Indonesia (the famous story of the Datus). Guro I. certainly has commented that there is an important and unappreciated contribution from India (perhaps via the Hindus in Indonesia?) Before entering the discussion on the term Kali, in a spirit of respect to all a few words if I may about terminology discussions (and occasional feuds). From where I sit (here in California, with only one trip of one month to the Philippines under my belt) there is something baffling about the intensity that sometimes is brought to these matters. By way of analogy if Europe were to be/become one country, some of these conversations make as much sense as an Englishmen and a Spaniard arguing over the word "book" versus "libro."-- or an American black getting mad at a Mexican for using the word "negro"-- in America such a term these days is considered rude, but in Mexico it simply means "black". No disrespect intended, I just don't get the terminology testiness thing. (As noted, we Americans can be pretty inscrutable to Asians too!) With that said, I just don't understand what seems like some people being upset with the word "kali". I don't understand how such certainty can be brought to any matter linguistic in the Philippines. Hell, I don't understand how Filipinos have conversations where one speaks in one language and the other speaks in another, or how individuals seemingly speak in several languages at once. I readily admit my ignorance, and if anyone can help raise my level I would be glad of it. Punong Guro Edgar Sulite titled a wonderful book he wrote "Masters of Kali, Arnis, Eskrima". Are the masters in his book who use the term kali deluded? The Villabraille people use the term kali, the Pekiti Tirsia people use the term kali, the Ilustrisimo people use the term kali, and many others. Are they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? On the first Dog Brothers Martial Arts t-shirt it says "Kali-silat and others". Why did I go with such a term? I chose the term Kali because I associate it with the courageous fighting spirit that was shown in the southern Philippines by the Moros (can I use this term? I'm confused-- I'm told to call someone a Moro is disrespectful--at least in some dialects/languages-- yet there is today the Moro Liberation Front) By the criteria of some Filipinos, this may not be right, but I am an American in America. Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of highest respect? As far as Guro Inosanto goes, I would offer for consideration the following: People often don't read as carefully as he writes or listen as carefully as he speaks. For example, for years there has been this idea that he wrote the all the good eskrimadors had left the Philippines and come to America. No, what he wrote was "If what they (certain of his teachers in Stockton) say is true then , , , etc" which is an entirely different thing. I suspect this business about Kali as the mother art is of a similar sort. I don't have his FMA book at hand, but if memory serves it is what GM/Tuhon Largusa said. As for the matter of his not having been to the Philippines: The question is logical enough, but I would offer that, as has been so well pointed out by several members of this list well qualified to do so, the FMA can be a matter of great secrecy in the Philippines to an extent that is hard for those who have not experienced it to appreciate. Thus, for me, it logically follows that it can be very easy for each group to not know much about other groups- be it their terminology, techniques, or training methods. Guro I grew up in a rare environment where Filipinos from throughout the islands came together in one area-- the farm labor camps of Stockton and by grace of his father had the door opened to train with an array of them that I suspect is not often matched in the highly secretive environment of the Philippines. (Manong LaCoste, his principal teacher, was unusually well traveled in the Philippines, and even was trained by Muslims as well-- a rare thing as I understand it.) I remember the time he attended GM Estalilla's Kabaroan seminar. GM E. is from Luzon, yet when he showed certain techniques Guro I. whispered to me that they could not be from Luzon and were probably from , , ,ummm, I forget where. Later, in conversation with GM E. it came out that there was a point in the evolution of Kabaroan where techniques were shared in a refugee camp with men from exactly where Guro I had predicted (I hope I have this bit about the history of Kabaroan right-- I ask the Kabaroan people on the list to correct me if not) The point is that he could tell the region of the technique just by looking at it. As for the matter of the types of weapons that my friend Tom discussed, I usually avoid such a subject because I usually get something wrong. But then, Guro I. says that there were things he didn't get right in the first book. Maybe that's why he's writing another? Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:19:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power > From: AnimalMac@aol.com > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:26:20 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power > > In a message dated 10/25/00 7:09:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << However, you seem to be more interested in the > target than the projectile. Kinetic energy increases > with velocity. Force increases with acceleration. > The greater the acceleration of the fist at > the moment of impact, the greater the impact. >> > > The formulas we use are > Momemtum (force) = Mass x velocity > > Impact however is a funny little witch > > __Velocity (squared)__ x Mass > Impact = 2 > > So velocity squared divided by two times mass equals impact. At least that is > what a physicist told me. My friend, while you are probably most proficient at striking, it's rather unfair to mix up the terms used to describe motion. > While decelration is really important for energy transference, if you have an > impact line and a force line going off in different directions, you ain't I understand your message even though your description is loose. A lot of good athletes and coaches enjoy using specific terms to describe motion. If you are interested in using formulas to educate your followers, it's a good idea to understand the material before the lecture. This is my last post with formulas. I wish I could contribute something else to this group, but unfortunately, this is all I know. So, stick me or gore me. Gimme your love ! Weight is not mass. Weight = mass x acceleration. Gravity is the acceleration used to determine a human body weight as measured on a floor scale. The weight of a horizontal fist is controlled by the acceleration you can generate in a horizontal direction. Momentum is not force. Momentum = mass x velocity The "impact" formula you list is one for kinetic energy. In striking, some of this energy is transferred to the target. > gonna hit hard. Your fist can be flying, but if it doesn't have your body > mass movig along the same line behind it, forget it. > > Do this.... take the momentum thing with your body weight as the mass and Your body is the mass. Your body weight is not the mass. > figure your body is moving at 10 miles an hour. Come up with an answer. Now > do the impact formula with 30 mphs and say your arm's weight is five pounds. What's the mass in this case? > Compare the differences. That is what happens if your body (momentum) is > moving a different way from your blow (Impact) A body only has momentum if the body is moving. > Now if your force line and your impact line are the same, do the impact When are they ever different? > formula again, with your fist's acceleration (velocity) of 30mph but up the Acceleration does not equal velocity. Acceleration is a measure of the change in velocity. > mass to your bodyweight. All of a sudden it becomes kind of obvious why these Mass is not weight. > two lines have to work together for both speed and power. Dude, you definitely need to put in some physics training hours. ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: The physics and the physical Math was never my favorite subject. Although, Thanks for all the great post on the physics of it. Now, how about the physicals of it? I was actually looking for a little more of a practical thread than a physics one. I think it makes sense that the heavier the stick, the slower you move. The lighter the stick, the faster you move. Although a light stick CAN hurt, most fighters or attackers probably won't really respect it. It is not my belief, as well, that just because one has a heavier stick that one will hit harder. Either way, you still need the body mechanics to pull off the power shot. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 26 Oct 00 14:04:02 CDT Subject: eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #500] ================= The jab is meant to be fast by using only your arm, involving less of your body. By not hitting as hard the recoil is less so you can quickly deliver the next jab. The hard hit commits more of the body takes the brain more time to complete and is harder to pull back from for the next hit. ================= Just a humble bit of food for thought... The above depends on how you train to hit with your hands. Pulling back is less of a concern if you train to return the hand as the other travels forward. When I teach/practice hitting with the fists every hit involves pivoting and rotation ... almost like punching with your body squared to the front ... the hits are identical in body form. Translate this into a fighting posture with oneo or the other hand as lead and the only real change is that the rotation with the "jab" is less than the rotation with the "cross", inother words lead hand and rear hand. This can be very fast and lends itself to easy interjection of kicks, i.e., as a "kickboxing" template, the hands and feet become easily interchangeable. An important point to note: this model of coordinated hitting does not seek power outright, power is the result of getting the parts to work together efficiently so that speed can be increased. One might be tempted to lean in one direction or another to put more power into the hit. That's a mistake, especially given that it provides an opponent with a litle more advantage in his/her attempts to steal/disrupt balance. I'll stop here and let you think on it. This is not a "boxing" model, and unlike some boxers and kickboxers that I've - -observed- the lead hand is not thrown with the front foot flat, but rather with the pivot in anticipation of flowing into something else. The flow becomes the delivery of smooth power. Overemphasizing power yields greater susceptibility to getting tagged (for some of us anyway). As Grandmaster Bustillo once told a gentleman who asked: "How do you beat a guy like that?" Response: "You make him miss." :-) BTW, the lead hand/jab "power hit" can deliver more power with a shuffle that lands on the heel and rotates. Rotation of the body to bring the mass of the body behind the punch is a part of both deliveries. One is static (pivoting), the other is dynamic (heel-toe torquing). In both cases the return of the fist is augmented by the motion of the body in support of delivering or repositioning the other hand. Experiment. My underlying model of "kickboxing" is Kung Fu/Chinese Boxing (Tian Shan Pai) - -- very much revised per exposure to other systems and the advice of a Combat Shuai Chiao master who said: "You're carrying a lot of baggage!" :-) Working with a guy in a "world's most devastating martial arts" seminar about 10 years ago (whoa, gettin' old ovah heeyuh), I was criticized (laughed at?) for the way that I punched ... until he held the focus mitts for me :-) Hah-hah!!! This guy exclaimed "Guess who punches THROUGH the mitts!!!" Experiment. Mitakyoaseh, Mik ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: "Tom Meadows" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:11:28 -0700 Subject: eskrima: What's in a name? Greetings, The purpose of the digest is to provide a forum for the exchange of ideas. And in this case it is doing an excellent job. There was never any intention in my recent post to demean other systems or styles, or to lay myself out as the ultimate authority on the Filipino arts. The beauty of this list is that we now have a global exhange of ideas that otherwise would not occur. When I used the term "generally accepted" I meant within my immediate martial arts community, that being the only one I have contact with. It would be ludicrous of me to expect the global community of the digest to share my own common experiences. And in some ways this mirrors the essential problem we have been discussing in the Filipino arts, namely trying to overlay a common experience on an archipelago of over 7000 islands. And now to address some specific questions that have been brought up. What I presented in my origional post was my own synthesis of 13 years of historical study under Guro Inosanto, and my own on going research into the history of the arts in the Philippines. It is only a theory, but in the absence of any written data on the subject prior to 1900, all we can do is theorize and put our theories forth for discussion. The simple fact that we are engaged in a vigorous discussion of the origins of Eskrima, Arnis, and Kali and the origins of these names, is proof of the lack of historical written documentation. It would be easy if we could just pick up a book on the Philippines and turn to the chapter on the Martial Arts and look up the references, but the Spaniards did a remarkably good job of destroying all the documentation they could find. It is entirely possible that I was completely wrong in my synthesized theory, or partially wrong, or very accurate. Considering that the time span I am presenting for the dissemination of the arts spans 5000 years, there is much room for discussion. That is why I brought it up, to gain more information, which is coming in at a particularly good rate. Regarding Jose Saguisabals observation: <"I know it doesn't make our arts very glamorous, but most Filipino systems consist of no more than single and double sticks, single knife, espada y daga, and empty hands. Furthermore, Dan Inosanto's program is NOT "Kali", other than the fact that he calls it such. "Kali", which may have existed at one time, has evolved into Eskrima or Arnis--like it or not."> I believe this corroborates my exact point in my original post. And Jose's second point which was <"Maybe you couldn't find anyone who knew anything about the Filipino arts because you were asking about "Kali". I beg to differ; I have never met a Filipino, young or old, who has never heard of Eskrima or Arnis."> My experience was simply different than his. Because of the myth of the arts not existing in the Philippines I did some very simple research: I would tell anybody who I was having a conversation with that I was a member of the US Eskrima team, and if they had not heard about the tournament I would explain to them about Eskrima, Arnis, and Kali. I did this a lot in the ten days I spent in Cebu, and as I mentioned 98% of the people I spoke with professed absolutely no knoweldge of the arts. Certainly not the definitive study, but one that if I chose as absolute, would prove that the arts are vitually nonexistent in the islands. I do not choose it to be absolute, but only ten days experience in my life. It is possible that on a different ten days I would find that most of the people knew of the arts.My experience is no more or less valid than Jose's with finding that everyone knew of the arts.It is only my experience. And to respond to Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet. I recently watched the demonstration he did on the Sardinas CD and I came away with nothing but respect for his art. And frankly I wouldn't even try to limit his style by calling it Kali or Eskrima or Arnis. What he does is so essentially Filipino that it defines the Filipino martilialArts, at least as I see them. Thus I will defer completely to him and I thank him for his inputs to my research. I especially appreciate the Yo-Yo information as that is so hard to come by. One thing I do know is that the American toy Yo-Yo design was brought over from the Philippines in the 50's by a Mr. Duncan, and you can still buy Duncan Yo-Yo's in any toy store in America. As Always, Tom Meadows ------------------------------ From: Edwin Tam Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:33:27 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Physics of hitting Hi Ray, The following message got bounced as a non-member post. I thought I am a mamber as I get the digest: perhaps I am sending it to the wrong address... Could you pass this on to the digets if you have not already done so? Very interesting discussion of the physics of hitting. I remember my teacher telling me about his experiences sparring various types of fighters that a punch by a martial artist ("pow!") hurts you, but a punch by a boxer ("whomp!") goes through you, and you feel it inside... Allow me then to delurk and wade in with an extended quote from an article in May's issue of Discover Magazine, which looked at the work of some physicists who examined the physics of board breaking in karate. Of note, it addresses the difference between boxing and karate punches, and it also looks at the target material which might explain why self-deceleration -after impact- might be a good thing (it is not based on F=MA equations despite what I've seen written in this forum and other martial arts books). Anyways, onto the experts (two of them are physicists): "Of course, the best boxers can punch as quickly and as powerfully as any black belt. Why can't they break concrete blocks too? The answer lies in the nature of their punches. When a boxer throws his fist, he usually ends the movement with a follow-through. This gives the punch maximum momentum (golf and tennis players follow throughfor the same reason), and it can help knock an opponent down. But the impact itself is diffuse: it's meant to jar an opponent's brain, not crack his skull." [I think this gets at the idea of prolonging the impulse as mentioned in a previous posting...] "A karate chop, on the other hand, has no follow through at all: it lashes out like a cobra, then withdraws instantly. When a black belt hits a slab of concrete, for instance, his fist touches the block for fewer than five milliseconds, and yet the block breaks with a resounding crack." "...A well-thrown fist...reaches its maximum velocity when the arm is about 80% extended. 'That's exactly what my tae kwon do master taught me...You learn to focus your punch in your imagination so that it terminates inside your opponent's body, rather than on the surface. To deliver the maximum power, you want to make contact before the slow-down begins.'" "The purpose of all that focused power is brutally obvious: to break bones and rupture tissue. But success also depends on more subtle forces. Solid as they seem, all materials are at least slightly elastic. Whack them in the right spot and they will start to oscillate. A puch with follow-through would dampen such oscillations, but a karate chop, by pulling away at the last moment, lets them move freely. 'If you tweak a rubber band, it goes up and down, and the same is true if you tweak a board or a brick with much greater force...When they reach their elastic limits, they start to yield. In other words, they break.'" [It seems that the above might account for why previous posters have found big differences between kicks that push the target back without damaging, and kicks that bust ribs without sending the guy flying. It might also account for why some punches felt to be "powerful" seem slower: they don't depend as much on maximum speed at the moment of impact since they continue to do their work in the follow through, and so people throwing these types of punches may not emphasize maximum speed. It does seem though that having more speed would only help the issue, without necessarily sacrificing "power"...] ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Physics or Physical My thoughts on the original question: PRACTICE. Someone mentioned last issue, that intelectualism bores him and application is a different story. Exactly. We can talk about this, and we can talk about that, but then what happens when you add the variables of another guy swinging his stick at you, fear, adrenaline, etc. My way of training the two is to constantly pick up a heavy stick and swing it hard. Then to fight. IMO, a formula that just can't go wrong... ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Mathusula2@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:56:38 EDT Subject: eskrima: Not so Physic-al OK -- Here's my non-physics thaught on power. Ever seen a Thai boxer roundhouse kick? It's quite amazing, especially if you're on the recieving end of something that fierce (which I have been unfortunately but hey, we all have to learn). The kick always originates from the rear leg and follows through the opponents body. This process is incredibly time consuming (for a strike) and the result is a lot of pain for the opponent when he or she is struck. Compare this to a probing, snapping roundhouse of many other systems and a Thai kick will take longer and the result is much harder. Which would you rather be hit with? (I know, neither). There are no 2 ways about it. If you feel that someone has an incredibly quick and powerful stike, then that person is capable of generating an even more powerful strike if he or she would just follow through more making the strike last that much longer. No physics anymore, just common sense. Which would you rather be, a shotgun or a machine gun? Stopping power vs. multiple shots. Any answer is good; that's personal preference. -- Mike ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:54:10 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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