From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 27 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 504 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 eskrima: Speed/Power eskrima: Filipino "testiness" eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: Challenge Accepted eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #502 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Taojen1@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:12:51 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 In a message dated 10/26/00 5:33:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Those unfamiliar with the word "kris" will read the written form as "kali" just like most Filipinos will read Arkansas as "Ar-can-sas" instead of "Ar-can-saw". >> When the Arkansas River flows from that state into Kansas it is indeed pronounced Ar Kansas. Buddy (former jayhawker) ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:42:59 EDT Subject: eskrima: Speed/Power From: Gints Klimanis said >I understand your message even though your description is loose. A lot of good athletes and coaches enjoy using specific terms to describe motion. If you are interested in using formulas to educate your >followers, it's a good idea to understand the material before the lecture. You know, a scientist just mentioned the same thing to me. Apparently my understandings of physics are not quite up to snuff as I thought they were. So with this in mind I guess I am just going to have to say that it is my magical internal powers that allows me to blow my opponents through the wall when I have aligned my chi and dim mak. In the same vein I have to cop to the fact that it is my invincible iron shirt chi quon that allows me to take hits from people whose chi and dim mak are not as harmoniously aligned as mine. Otherwise I'd just have to assume that my attack's physics are better than his. Now if I can get that same scientist - who orignally pointed out that stuff while arguable wasn't technically correct - and a physcist we both know together to scientifically and mathematically explain why what I am doing works to break sticks, ribs and blow through people's defenses, I'll let you know the exact terms. >Weight is not mass. Weight = mass x acceleration. Gravity is the acceleration used to determine a human body weight as measured on a floor scale. The weight of a horizontal fist is controlled by the acceleration you can generate in a horizontal direction. Since I use the "dropstep" to generate the accerlation the two things are not neccessarily seperate. >The "impact" formula you list is one for kinetic energy. In striking, some of this energy is transferred to the target. And if it backed by momemtum? >Your body is the mass. Your body weight is not the mass. As people who have attended my seminars can tell you one thing I emphasize is how to let gravity drive your motion. Your muscles actually only accelerate your body a little more but the main source of motion is gravity. >> figure your body is moving at 10 miles an hour. Come up with an answer. Now > do the impact formula with 30 mphs and say your arm's weight is five pounds. What's the mass in this case? I'll ask my scientist friend >> Compare the differences. That is what happens if your body (momentum) is > moving a different way from your blow (Impact) >A body only has momentum if the body is moving. Good point, which is another common mistake of people trying to hit hard. Instead of using all these cool things they just try to use muscles. >> Now if your force line and your impact line are the same, do the impact >When are they ever different? Oh....I'd say in about 70% of the martial arts moves I regularly see...why do you ask? >Mass is not weight. You mentioned this. >Dude, you definitely need to put in some physics training hours. Next time I'm in southern CA I'll get some. In the mean time I'll just have to settle for hitting hard. Animal ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:50:28 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Filipino "testiness" "No disrespect intended, I just don't get the terminology testiness thing. " I am not really offended when I hear some Filipino terms misused, but I do wish to correct it, as I, too, once misused the same terms. However, my instructor and his uncle are. I have an excerpt from an interview before I studied with him: "when people who dont even know our culture are claiming to be an expert in these arts or the culture, that is what piss me off. they read inaccurate information, and even when they find out that the stuff they know is wrong, they keep using it. why? because these people are making money or fame off the information they are expert in, and they want to protected there reputations. instead of going to a true source they want to go to a video or seminars to get it the easy way, where they get to be an expert very fast, with fewer lessons, and easy testing. that is why you will find people who will still argue and tell a pilipino that he is wrong because there are 1000 dialects, 100 names of styles, and we do not even know our own culture! they impress you with fance words and dates and names and sources. and for those who do not have a college education or a sophisticated wordage, some of us believe that. that is why you will see pilipinos using "tuhon" or "datu". if you want credibility, you have to do what everybody else is doing." He and his uncle once told me that the revolution (of which their family is a part of) in the Philippines is mostly fighting Western influence and domination over the Philippines and its government. Europeans rewrote our history, and determine our future. Western business controls the economy and the livelihoods of many Filipinos, and even in the fighting arts, they control that too. Why is it that twenty years ago (or even ten for that matter), one couldn't find a Filipino who would teach a Westerner, but today, they are marrying off daughters to Americans for the opportunity to come here? Why would it take a Filipino four to five years to get certified by the Presas family in the Philippines--with full time study--yet today, you can get it with about 10 seminars and a camp? Why are Filipinos who know better using the term "Kali" to attract students? The answer to all of that is that the Foreigners control the business. That is why you see all these groups, Lightning Arnis, Largusa Eskrima, Pekiti Tirsia ESKRIMA, are calling themselves "Kali" today. It's all about the dollar. Back to our "testiness", I can't speak for everyone, but the feeling I get is that no one likes to see the power another culture has over his own. The insistence of misusing a term and changing the name of an art is a powerful sign that the Filipino arts are Western dominated. Off the subject a little, a few of the Filipino FMArtists in my area (many of whom know him) find it peculiar that a well travelled Dan Inosanto never found it necessary to investigate in the Philippines. Had he done that, he would have discovered that Eskrima is not "dead". Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:18:19 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >And in an Archipelago of of over 7000 islands, to expect a commonality of >terminology, much less a commonality over the last 100 years, is a base >ignorance of linguistics. > True, separate dialects have developed, but we usually speak more than one. 7000 islands seem impressive, but less so when you see that they occupy an area roughly the size of California. (Add the fact that only a very small percentage of these islands are actually permanently inhabited) You can sail the entire archiapelago hopping from one island to the next, visually, in a week. Historically there were separate cultures, but there was a great deal of interaction between them. > >It is generally accepted that the Filipino martial arts have their primary >roots in India. The Indian Godess of war is named Kali or some variant >thereof. Emigration of Indians to the Southern Philippines brought the >Indian fighting arts in their purest and most complete form to the >Southern Philippines. Over centuries these arts spread Northwards to the >tip of the Archipelago. As this spread occurred, primarily through oral >and physical training, various aspect of the arts were lost. Thus in the >Southern Philippnes you will find the arts of Kali to have more variety in >techniques and weaponry than the Eskrima of the Central Islands, which >have more depth than Arnis as it is known in the Northern Islands. > > Sorry, but have to disagree. To begin with what is South and North? The Bisaya culture extended from northern Mindanao to southern Luzon. What is considered "south" (Mindanao) was more closely related to the culture in what is now considered Manila. (north) The southern Sultans (Mindanao) were related to the sultans of Borneo and others in the IndoMalay archiapelago. On the other hand the three datus of Mindoro (island off the central/eastern coast of Luzon, a days sail from Manila) were Muslims under the overlordship of the Sultan of Borneo. One of the three Rajas of Manila at the coming of Legazpi was married to the daughter of the Sultan of Borneo. You start to see the complexity of the situation which would be undeservingly simplified by saying that it started south and worked its way north. The Indian influence is grossly overemphasized. That would be like saying that the Puritan influence on American culture is "it" because they got there before the immigrants from other European nations. The Chinese culture has played a far greater and earlier role in what is now the Philippines than the Indian ever did. The arnis, escrima, kali terms, corresponding to north, central and south is one which is highly debatable, at best. Instead of studying written sources (many like the code of Kalantiaw which is a proven forgery) from half a world away or relying on information from more commercialized schools, it would be a major eye opener for many to come over, spend a couple of years here, an get off the beaten track.(With a proper "guide" to help with the intros) What you may find will surprise you. >We have students from many systems on this list and I am willing to bet >that 90% of them have had no exposure to yo-yo techniques, Again the use of this yo-yo as a weapon is debatable. Certainly not used by the "purer" Moslem south. Same with the "sumpit", these are aboriginal weapons used more for hunting than as part of the "warrior arts". >So to finish up and answer David Eke's question: There is no contradiction >in Guro Dan's text: Kali is the Mother Art to the collective arts of >Eskrima, Arnis and Kali and can also be viewed as a composite of all of >these. > The "collective arts" thing is a product of 20th. century. Nothing wrong with that. But when it is said that this exists in the US and not the Philippines, expect opposing voices from REAL filipinos who have learned here, live here and have traveled all over the archiapelago studying and searching for the roots of thier art. LPIII ------------------------------ From: Alex France Date: 26 Oct 2000 18:46:32 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Challenge Accepted In Vol. 7, No. 503, Jose wrote: >>As far as the names for Eskrima and Arnis, those are the only terms you will find. Perhaps you might find another name used beside the name, like "Kabaroan Eskrima", but I challenge you to find a style simply named "Garote" or "Yantok".<< Okay! A challenge I can accept --no bloodletting! (Allergic to blade cuts.) That might be true now, but during my mother's time in the Philippines, 1922-1952 (moved to the states after that), her uncles (my grandfathers) practiced an art that may have been a form of arnis or eskrima, but they didn't call it that. They called it "borakil". I'm not exactly sure of the spelling; but if I were asked how it's pronounced, I would say it's pretty close to saying "burro - kill" in English. For research purposes, the family names of these practitioners were "Bayot" and "Bautista", in the northern Philippines, island of Luzon, province of Cavite, towns of Amadeo, Tagaytay, Cavite City and perhaps other towns near there. Jose , if you (or anyone else out there) find out anything about it, please let me know! Maraming salamat! Alex(ander Bautista Bayot France) ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:30:06 +1000 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 Punong Guro Edgar Sulite titled a wonderful book he wrote "Masters of Kali, Arnis, Eskrima". Are the masters in his book who use the term kali deluded? The Villabraille people use the term kali, the Pekiti Tirsia people use the term kali, the Ilustrisimo people use the term kali, and many others. Are they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? IMO the simple answer to this is "YES". I think the word just sounded good and its useage could differentiate the "home grown" escrima from the "better (mother art) more sophisticated (American)" KALI. By the criteria of some Filipinos, this may not be right, but I am an American in America. Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of highest respect? If it does offend and you use it (because you are "an American in America"), how can its use be in the spirit of the highest respect? As far as Guro Inosanto goes, I would offer for consideration the following: People often don't read as carefully as he writes or listen as carefully as he speaks. For example, for years there has been this idea that he wrote the all the good eskrimadors had left the Philippines and come to America. No, what he wrote was "If what they (certain of his teachers in Stockton) say is true then , , , etc" which is an entirely different thing. I suspect this business about Kali as the mother art is of a similar sort. I don't have his FMA book at hand, but if memory serves it is what GM/Tuhon Largusa said. A direct quote from the History section P.13 " The Filipino Martial Arts" "Escrima in the Philippines is dead, they say. The proven fighters, the adventourous ones, have all left. If what they say is true then America is the new home of the ecrimador -or kali -of the ancient savage and sophisticated arts of the Filipino people" True, it's written in the third person but it is the history of the Filipino Martial Arts according to Guro Dan. It is not a quote from someone else although someone clearly supplied him with the information. Why put it in the book if he didn't think it was true? For me I don't really care but I do know that local escrimadors are offended by it. They feel that Americans rewrite history the way it suits them (and maybe whats worse is, you feed it back to them as FACTS). ------------------------------ From: pnn Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:16:41 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #502 > Terry Tippie wrote: > > >BTW there was a good article in "Scientific American" about 10 years ago > >on > >this subject that used high-speed photography to illustrate and measure > the physics of board breaking. Lot of talk about elasticity, stress moduli and > >speed of deceleration. It was cool. > > Do you remember which issue? Or at least if it was a standalone article > or an "Amateur Scientist" article? > > tenrec > tenrec@avcorner.com I read an article about this in Discover sometime earlier this year. (May?) Some MIT physics grads with too much free time. I believe (from memory) they discovered that maximum power comes at approximately 80% of full extension and that the "traditional" karate board breaking style did deliver the maximum power. If you practice long enough, the optimum methods become clear. Paul Nagata ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:39:52 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.