From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #505 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 27 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 505 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 eskrima: Burokil, Brokil (Stick Fighting) eskrima: RE: Linguistics, kali, etc. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 eskrima: Kabaroan/Kadaanan eskrima: Collies for Moro-moro eskrima: Kali, Collie, Part 2 eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503] eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:15:10 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 Terminology, smerminology.......This is America, would those same people who are so easily offended by our misuse of their language ever set down in their own country and formalize the terms. Would they form ONE organization that sets criteria for rank? One of the problems with all martial arts is just that, no standardization. What is needed is just that, so that whatever rank or title you have it is Universal? Sort of like if you have a Bachelors or Masters or Doctorate degree. I hear all this talk, but that is all it is. If the Masters in the Philippines will set down together and say OK this is this and that is that I am sure that everyone here will go along. I am from Louisiana if you come here from New York you will have to learn a new dialect also, but we don't get offended (we may laugh at you but we won't get offended). IMHO if the Filipino people want changes in the way their arts are expressed by Americans then stop complaining and do something constructive! If not we will continue with the same problem that Karate has, in one system you can spend 5 years getting to first degree Black Belt, while the kid down the street has made 3rd Degree in 36 month. And if they are not willing to do that then just laugh at us dumb Americans as you take our money and let it ride. As the Bard said "would a rose by any name smell less sweet"? Understand no disrespect is intended but if you want change you have to do something not just talk. Bear ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:55:43 EDT Subject: eskrima: Burokil, Brokil (Stick Fighting) Alex, Burokil or Brokil is known weapon in Arnis, Eskrima, usually hard wood made in a shape of a Swords. This is what we call this weapon in Paete, Lumban, Siniloan, Mabitac, Famy, Luisiana, Majayjay, Magdalena, San Antonio and other part of Laguna in Luzon Island. I grow up using this words for this weapon. Also we used Estrokada or Estokada. Off course Baston is used to the "Pat-pat" made of Yantok, Uway, Limuran, Kape, Bayabas, Kalamansi, Kamagong, Yakal, Maulawin, Kaimito, etc. Up to now this term is still used to our town and neighboring town. Again, I inviting everybody to visit Laguna to seek lesson from the Grandmaster and Master of this Arnis, Eskrima, and Estokada. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA << Okay! A challenge I can accept --no bloodletting! (Allergic to blade cuts.) That might be true now, but during my mother's time in the Philippines, 1922-1952 (moved to the states after that), her uncles (my grandfathers) practiced an art that may have been a form of arnis or eskrima, but they didn't call it that. They called it "borakil". I'm not exactly sure of the spelling; but if I were asked how it's pronounced, I would say it's pretty close to saying "burro - kill" in English. For research purposes, the family names of these practitioners were "Bayot" and "Bautista", in the northern Philippines, island of Luzon, province of Cavite, towns of Amadeo, Tagaytay, Cavite City and perhaps other towns near there. Jose , if you (or anyone else out there) find out anything about it, please let me know! Maraming salamat! Alex(ander Bautista Bayot France) >> ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:16:13 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Linguistics, kali, etc. "Jose Saguisabal" wrote "It is true that there are many dialects in the Philippines, but does this mean that Filipinos can't communicate with each other? Not at all, no matter what dialect you speak, one also speaks Tagalog, especially today." Add English to that. When I lived in the south in RP, I never heard so many dialects spoken in one place--cebuano, ilonggo, ilocano, chabacano, kapampangan, not to mention the Muslim and tribal dialects. When I opened my mouth and replied in Tagalog, they politely switched to Tagalog. Until I took a taxi from the airport (Mactan) to Cebu City. The friendly taxi driver wanted to chat. He did not speak Tagalog; my Cebuano was abysmal. So we ended up chatting in English during the trip. Other personal observations relevant to the linguistics/kali thread. When I still lived in the Philippines, the martial artists I either trained with or spoke to (whether in the south or in the north, like Pangasinan, my dad's province) used the terms either arnis or eskrima. I do not recall anybody using the term kali (which does not necessarily mean nobody used the term). Also, as somebody already alluded to in a recent post, martial arts in some parts of the south meant proficiency with the Armalite, Browning, de sabog (shotgun) and paltiks (homemade guns), some so crude there was always the possibility it could blow up in your face, some so realistic looking that they even bore the name "Smith and Wesson." I now wish I kept those "paltiks" for souvenirs, but Marcos's martial law caught up with me in the south, and we ended up burying some of those guns somewhere rather than turning them in. Arnis, eskrima or kali? Jay de Leon ------------------------------ From: rj marcaida Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:05:30 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #504 Jose Saguisabal wrote <<"when people who dont even know our culture are claiming to be an expert in these arts or the culture, that is what piss me off. they read inaccurate information, and even when they find out that the stuff they know is wrong, they keep using it. why? because these people are making money or fame off the information they are expert in, and they want to protected there reputations. instead of going to a true source they want to go to a video or seminars to get it the easy way, where they get to be an expert very fast, with fewer lessons, and easy testing.>> Your instructor hit the nail on the head. Very interesting and I can see where he's coming from but does not apply to everyone. << some of us believe that. that is why you will see pilipinos using "tuhon" or "datu". if you want cre! dibility, you have to do what everybody else is doing.">> Nothing wrong with that. That is why some people want to be called " Dr. Juan dela Cruz" , "Prince Charles",etc, most of these people actually earned the title and whatever they want to call themselves. Interesting, he picked out "tuhon".....CAREFUL! >>Why are Filipinos who know better using the term "Kali" to attract students? The answer to all of that is that the Foreigners control the business. That is why you see all these groups, Lightning Arnis, L! argusa Eskrima, Pekiti Tirsia ESKRIMA, are calling themselves "Kali" today. It's all about the dollar.<< A few questions regarding to your post : 1. What's the name of your instructor and what is the system he teaches? 2. Did he at one point charge you or anyone else for his services or his knowledge? If he did then he too is guilty of doing it for the money. 3. Are you Filipino? Seems to me you are (based on your family name). I ask this b/c of of the last sentence of your statement. ...if you are , you should know better than to post something like that coz' you have just attacked a few systems although i know you didn't mean to (I'm sure your instructor didn't think you were gonna post it publicly) and you know Filipinos will do anything to save face. Although I am a Pekiti-Tirshia practicioner and studied "Kali" Illustrisimo I'm just wondering who your instructor is. He has every right to his opinions but you just posted publicly some very strong quotations. All the best, Rj ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:21:21 EDT Subject: eskrima: Kabaroan/Kadaanan Marc, I was reading the history of Kabaroan, it was new term from the old term Kadaanan. Also GM E. also claim was born in San Pablo, Laguna. Study the arts in Pampangga from his childhood experience show how he developed the arts now known as Kabaroan, a new arts. Off course everytime we study old way we developed something, for the better, that make the arts more better before, adding techniques and absorbing is natural to all of us Studying FMA. Guro Inosanto said it also Absorb what is usedfull. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet << I remember the time he attended GM Estalilla's Kabaroan seminar. GM E. is from Luzon, yet when he showed certain techniques Guro I. whispered to me that they could not be from Luzon and were probably from , , ,ummm, I forget where. Later, in conversation with GM E. it came out that there was a point in the evolution of Kabaroan where techniques were shared in a refugee camp with men from exactly where Guro I had predicted (I hope I have this bit about the history of Kabaroan right-- I ask the Kabaroan people on the list to correct me if not) The point is that he could tell the region of the technique just by looking at it. As for the matter of the types of weapons that my friend Tom discussed, I usually avoid such a subject because I usually get something wrong. But then, Guro I. says that there were things he didn't get right in the first book. ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:03:45 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Collies for Moro-moro Greetings and salutations, Mr. Crafty! ( May your doggie Moro-moro always faithfully protect you from the forces of evil...) Always good to hear from you. Just a few IMHO and comments on your post: > By way of analogy if Europe were to be/become one country, some of these conversations make >as much sense as an Englishmen and a Spaniard arguing over the word "book" >versus "libro."-- or an American black getting mad at a Mexican for using >the word "negro"-- in America such a term these days is considered rude,but >in Mexico it simply means "black". No disrespect intended, I just don't >get the terminology testiness thing. (As noted, we Americans can be pretty >inscrutable to Asians too!) I respectfully disagree with your analogies...in the first case, words from two diffferent languages are used to identify or refer to the same object. Unless you mean by the above that "kali" is indeed an American English (or other non-Filipino language) word used to refer to weapons-oriented martial arts practiced in the Phil., which the Filipinos refer to by the words "Arnis, " "Eskrima," "Baston," among others, then we (you and I at least) have no argument...we are simply refering to the exact same thing by words that belong to totally different languages. Unfortunately, from what I understand, the word 'kali" is supposed to be a Filipino word, and this is where the argument begins. IMHO, it would be more like the Englishman were insisting to the Spandiard that "espejo" is the proper Spanish word for the object we call a "book" in English. >With that said, I just don't understand what seems like some people being >upset with the word "kali". Upset...mmm, maybe not...but IMHO I just don't use word. When I speak to Filipinos about FMAs I like to be sure we're talking about the same thing. "Kali" (the word) just doesn't cut it... >I don't understand how such certainty can be >brought to any matter linguistic in the Philippines. Hell, I don't >understand how Filipinos have conversations where one speaks in one >language and the other speaks in another, or how individuals seemingly speak in >several languages at once. I readily admit my ignorance, and if anyone >can help raise my level I would be glad of it. Don't fret none, even smart people have a hard time with this... : 8 ) Seriously, when Fil. speak with one another, they usually a) speak in the same regional/provincial/village language, say Cebuano or Ibanag, depending on where they are at the time b) if both parties do not speak a common Filipino language, they may resort to Tagalog-based "Filipino," the alleged national language c) in some cases, two distinct languages are similiar enough to facilitate communication, to an practical extent... c) or they may resort to "ispokening dollars" (aka speaking in English)... in the end communication is facilitated... >Punong Guro Edgar Sulite titled a wonderful book he wrote "Masters of >Kali, Arnis, Eskrima". Are the masters in his book who use the term kali >deluded? The Villabraille people use the term kali, the Pekiti Tirsia people use >the term kali, the Ilustrisimo people use the term kali, and many others. Are >they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? Twaddle is too strong a word...(ain't a twaddle that fleshy thang that dangles from the necks of old ladies?) No, I do not believe that they are deluded. Quite the contrary. However, since I have not met any of the GM's or practitioners of the schools mentioned, I will not conjecture as to their decision to use the word "kali" in the official (?) names of their respective schools. I have read somewhere (on this digest I think), though, that the Illustrismo group used it fairly recently and only after they started teaching it in the United States. I read a post on another digest of the Pekiti-Tersia group, but it did not indicate whether they had always used the term or not. I am not familiar with the Villabraille group. Given the opportunity I would respectfully both ask the PKI group and the Villabraille group 1.) if they always used the word (as far back as when), 2.) when they began as a group 3.) and if they used another word, what was it? >On the first Dog Brothers Martial Arts t-shirt it says "Kali-silat and >others". Why did I go with such a term? I chose the term Kali because I >associate it with the courageous fighting spirit that was shown in the >southern Philippines by the Moros The term "silat" is a term used by the Muslim Filipinos for their martial arts, so your usage may be appropriate. "Kali" I understand is not used by the Muslim Filipinos to refer to their martial arts. Also, I believe silat and arnis are distinct styles. >(can I use this term? I'm confused-- I'm >told to call someone a Moro is disrespectful--at least in some >dialects/languages-- yet there is today the Moro Liberation Front) My Muslim filipino classmate (part of Muslim royalty btw) told me that it is disrespectful...I am also confused why the MNLF and MILF use that word. I shall try to find out...in the meantime, I'd advise one not to use it. [Still sore about your doggie's name? : 8 ) ] >By the criteria of some Filipinos, this may not be right, but I am an American in >America. Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of >highest respect? If a Filipino in the Philippines used a derogatory word for a Jew (say "X"), and, not understanding it to be derogatory, used it in a sign for his Philippine-Jewish friendship Society banner ("X"-Filipino Friendship Society), would it be any less inappropriate? "Kali" may or may not be offensive, but it is controversial and IMHO still very questionable... >but I would offer that, as has been so well pointed out by >several members of this list well qualified to do so, the FMA can be a >matter of great secrecy in the Philippines to an extent that is hard for >those who have not experienced it to appreciate. Thus, for me, it >logically follows that it can be very easy for each group to not know much about >other groups- be it their terminology, techniques, or training methods. And logically, a "general-all-encompassing-ever-lovin'-total" history of the FMAs is premature. No true research has been done. > The point is that he could tell the region of the technique just by looking at it. Interesting considering he never travelled to the PI. Last IMHO: "Kung-fu" was used for years in the U.S. to refer to the Chinese martial arts, although I read that up to the early '80s, if you travelled to the chinese mainland, no one there would understand that you meant the CMAs...I think that this is simliar to what is going on with "kali"... Now for something completely different: How about them Yankees??? eh?? EH??? (Just my luck, a digestful of Mets fans...) tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:54:36 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Kali, Collie, Part 2 A Howl of Greeting to All: Its late and I'm tired, but tomorrow will afford me no time so I ask that my brevity not be misunderstood for rudeness. > From: "jose saguisabal" > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:50:28 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Filipino "testiness" > > "No disrespect intended, I just don't get > the terminology testiness thing. " > > I am not really offended when I hear some Filipino terms misused, but I do wish to correct it, as I, too, once misused the same terms. However, my instructor and his uncle are. I have an excerpt from an interview before I studied with him: > > "when people who dont even know our culture are claiming to be an expert in these arts or the culture, that is what piss me off. they read inaccurate information, and even when they find out that the stuff they know is wrong, they keep using it. why? because these people are making money or fame off the information they are expert in, and they want to protected there reputations. instead of going to a true source they want to go to a video or seminars to get it the easy way, where they get to be an expert very fast, with fewer lessons, and easy testing. that is why you will find people who will still argue and tell a pilipino that he is wrong because there are 1000 dialects, 100 names of styles, and we do not even know our own culture! they impress you with fance words and dates and names and sources. and for those who do not have a college education or a sophisticated wordage, some of us believe that. that is why you will see pilipinos using "tuhon" or "datu". if you want >credibility, you have to do what everybody else is doing." I respect this point of view and certainly there are those who overrepresent themselves. The last sentence here is interesting though. It agrees that some pilipinos do use terms with which the author of this quote disagrees. Many claim to be right. Maybe all are. Maybe some are. Maybe none are. How is an ignorant foreigner like myself to tell the difference? to decide who is "right"? In my case, I simply have given up. You prefer one terminology. That is right for you. Another Filipino prefers another terminology. That is right for him. I would feel inappropriate saying to him "Hey! You are too uneducated to decide for yourself so I will reject the terminology you use." If I understand correctly what you are saying reduces to this. If not, please tell me. > He and his uncle once told me that the revolution (of which their family is a part of) in the Philippines is mostly fighting Western influence and domination over the Philippines and its government. Europeans rewrote our history, and determine our future. Western business controls the economy and the livelihoods of many Filipinos, and even in the fighting arts, they control that too. Why is it that twenty years ago (or even ten for that matter), one couldn't find a Filipino who would teach a Westerner, but today, they are marrying off daughters to Americans for the opportunity to come here? Why would it take a Filipino four to five years to get certified by the Presas family in the Philippines--with full time study--yet today, you can get it with about 10 seminars and a camp? Why are Filipinos who know better using the term "Kali" to attract students? The answer to all of that is that the Foreigners control the business. That is why you see all these groups, Lightning Arnis, Largusa Eskrima, Pekiti Tirsia ESKRIMA, are calling themselves "Kali" today. It's all about the dollar. > I respect all of this, but perhaps there is another strand to this which is being overlooked? Is there nothing good about non-Filipinos, often American, wishing to learn the FMA? > Back to our "testiness", I can't speak for everyone, but the feeling I get is that no one likes to see the power another culture has over his own. The insistence of misusing a term and changing the name of an art is a powerful sign that the Filipino arts are Western dominated. Again, some Filipinos agree with you and some do not-- including the ones I have mentioned and the ones you have mentioned. Why not bring this up with, for example, Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje? He has been a teacher to me, and he uses the term Kali. If you persuade him that he is Western dominated and persuade him to cease using this term, I would be impressed. In a spirit of respect I ask why should I take the word of someone I do not know over the word of someone I do? > Off the subject a little, a few of the Filipino FMArtists in my area (many of whom know him) find it peculiar that a well travelled Dan Inosanto never found it necessary to investigate in the Philippines. Had he done that, he would have discovered that Eskrima is not "dead". AGAIN, this business about "dead" is not what he said!!! He is putting down what certain of his teachers told him to put down!!! As for his travels, I agree that it is understandable that some wonder about this, and I agree that it is off the subject a little. > > From: Luis Pellicer > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:18:19 +0800 > Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 > >> So to finish up and answer David Eke's question: There is no contradiction > >in Guro Dan's text: Kali is the Mother Art to the collective arts of > >Eskrima, Arnis and Kali and can also be viewed as a composite of all of > >these. > > > > The "collective arts" thing is a product of 20th. century. Nothing wrong > with that. But when it is said that this exists in the US and not the > Philippines, expect opposing voices from REAL filipinos who have learned > here, live here and have traveled all over the archiapelago studying and > searching for the roots of thier art. > > LPIII I agree with Luis here. It is right that those from the homeland of the art speak up. But again, Guro I. was quoting his teachers, who also were Filipinos and if I understand correctly, men entitled to have an opinion. Certainly it would have been out of place for their student to have told them they were wrong. > From: "David Eke" > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:30:06 +1000 > Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503 > > Punong Guro Edgar Sulite titled a wonderful book he wrote "Masters of Kali, > Arnis, Eskrima". Are the masters in his book who use the term kali deluded? > The Villabraille people use the term kali, the Pekiti Tirsia people use the > term kali, the Ilustrisimo people use the term kali, and many others. Are > they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? > > IMO the simple answer to this is "YES". I think the word just sounded good > and its useage could differentiate the "home grown" escrima from the "better > (mother art) more sophisticated (American)" KALI. Yes these Filipino masters were deluded, or yes it is all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? Sorry, I am not sure of your meaning here. > By the criteria of some Filipinos, this may not be right, but I am an > American in America. Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of > highest respect? > > If it does offend and you use it (because you are "an American in America"), > how can its use be in the spirit of the highest respect? Because the term comes to me from those I know and respect and as best as I can tell, they have the right to use the terms they wish. I ask you to consider how some of this might look to an American. On a regular basis we see Filipinos telling each other that their respective terminology/history/etc is wrong. We have no independent basis of knowing and no matter what we do, it seems like someone is going to tell us it is wrong. After a while you just give up on the terminology squabble thing-- I know I have. Kali is part of the name of WEKAF, which is principally a Doce Pares affair and Doce Pares uses the term "eskrima" for itself, yet in respect for those who do use the name, it is part of the name of WEKAF. Does Doce Pares offend you too? I would add the additional point that words travel across borders and languages and in the process their meaning often evolves and changes. Many Spanish words now appear in various bastardized forms in various Filipino languages/dialects. For example, many of them have the letter "ll". In Spanish "ll" is pronounced like a "y" and has no "l" sound whatsoever-- yet in many Filipino dialects "ll" is pronounced "l-y". How would you feel if a Spaniard told you you were disrespecting him by changing the pronunciation and meaning of a Spanish word? > As far as Guro Inosanto goes, I would offer for consideration the following: > People often don't read as carefully as he writes or listen as carefully as > he speaks. For example, for years there has been this idea that he wrote > the all the good eskrimadors had left the Philippines and come to America. > No, what he wrote was "If what they (certain of his teachers in Stockton) > say is true then , , , etc" which is an entirely different thing. I suspect > this business about Kali as the mother art is of a similar sort. I don't > have his FMA book at hand, but if memory serves it is what GM/Tuhon Largusa > said. > > A direct quote from the History section P.13 " The Filipino Martial Arts" > > "Escrima in the Philippines is dead, they say. The proven fighters, the > adventourous ones, have all left. If what they say is true then America is > the new home of the ecrimador -or kali -of the ancient savage and > sophisticated arts of the Filipino people" > > True, it's written in the third person but it is the history of the Filipino > Martial Arts according to Guro Dan. It is not a quote from someone else > although someone clearly supplied him with the information. Why put it in > the book if he didn't think it was true? Perhaps because he thought he wasn't qualified to have an opinion contrary to theirs? Because he is telling the story of some of the men who taught him and for them it was true? Perhaps the presence of the word "if" is his way of saying that theirs is not the only view of the matter? > For me I don't really care but I do > know that local escrimadors are offended by it. They feel that Americans > rewrite history the way it suits them (and maybe whats worse is, you feed it > back to them as FACTS). I think if they appreciated the point I am trying to make here, then maybe they would see it differently. In closing: The point about foreign control of ones culture is a powerful on and is one way beyond my competence to discuss, or perhaps even to have much of an opinion. I do know that what little I have observed and have read about in this regard reminds me mightily of the relationship between the US and Mexico (in which I do have some background) -- Mexico also having a history with Spain similar to that of the Philippines. As Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" character said in one of his movies "A man has to know his limitations" and this subject is well beyond mine. I can only offer that I respect the power of this point. In closing I'd like to make an additional point. Like all students of a worthy teacher, those of us in the Inosanto tribe have high respect and feeling for our teacher. And like all students we are a work in progress, it is part of the meaning of the word. And sometimes some of us are also guilty of not listening as carefully as he speaks, or reading as carefully as he writes, and sometimes some of us are guilty of not speaking or writing as carefully as he does. I agree that some of us sometimes get carried away too. But the responsibility for all this is ours, not his, so please place the blame upon us and not him. I am now a tired doggy off to bed. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:15:05 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >jose saguisabal" > >Back to our "testiness", I can't speak for everyone, but the feeling I get is that no one likes to see the power another culture has over his own. Amen to that. Power through the almighty $. >David Eke" > > Are they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? > Some teachers do it. If some foreigners want exotic fantasy, there are those who will make it up to sell to them. Market demand. >Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of >highest respect? > I have personally witnessed the con. A guy comes over. Depending on how credulous the individual is, the story is told to fit his fantasy. And laughed about afterwards. Yet the foreigner believes the whole thing. Poor guys. I've heard stories which are obviously greatly exaggerated. But people still believe them. Go figure. It's the telephone game, by the time the message gets to the last player, how close is it to what was originally said? How often do we embellish our own stories to look better or boost our egos? What makes people think that some "masters" aren't capable of doing the same thing? There's a local saying, "You want good Chinese food, go to a restaurant with alot of Chinese customers." Same thing here, we are MUCH harder to fool. WE KNOW when they are BSing. LPIII ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 27 Oct 00 08:35:41 CDT Subject: eskrima: Re: [Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #503] > If you're going to use an argument based on physics > then you'll need to use a definition of work that a > physicist will accept. Quite right ... but I wasn't making an argument based on physics ... I was using a -concept- from physics to ground the presentation of a rationale for pursuing accuracy first, then flow, and speed with power as an afterthought. My intent was not to spawn a seminar on mechanics (duh, a major in physics was an option that I passed on despite faculty encouragements) but rahter to capture the imagination of some of those who are blinded by the quest for power at the onset of developing "skill" ... something which is actually contradictory to the development of skill. I'm not interested in physics arguments. I'm an application-oriented scientist, primarily bio-behavioral science at this point. Fundamentally though, I acknowledge some level of comprehension of an underpinning in physics for ALL science and behavior. If we get deeper into it I could draw corollaries btwn physics, chemistry and the behavior of energy and matter and the behavior of organisms, species and human societies ... but that wuold be pure intellectualism ...lost on most of us, fun maybe (what a ride!) but afterwards we might be like another Himalayan buddy once told me: "If you take a fool to the top of the mountain, when they come back down they'lll be the same fool." Then dad goes and tells me that they've been waitin' for me "to come down off Fool's Hill." :-) I suggest that anyone take my post(s) as jabs at the mind, sorta like a whack up'side de haid, but that might sound unfriendly :-) My purpose is not to argue physics, but to promote finer sense in training and personal development. Anyone can hit harder. Training with an orientation towards finer development may affect other aspects of one's life such that the end product will be less of a brute, perhaps more of a gentleman. Too many "power-seekers" are "trouble-makers" in the making. Think about it. Not long ago I spoke with a young man who liked to rant and rave about "power, gore and mayhem". Bugged the heck outta me. What kind of society will that guy and his buddies promote? A fricked up one IMHO. Humanity can do without people who just want to have fun seeking power and making mayhem. How are we going to last with attitudes like that? How does one maintain or create anything good for later generations with attitudes like that? Consider the words of one thinker on revolutions: "The first thing to do after a revolution is to get rid of the revolutionaries." Why? Because nation-building and nation-maintaining don't work well with a bunch of "gore and mayhem" makers hangin' out baby. The supposed facilitators of a soulution can become THE major problem. Take the high vantage point and look around. Take the zero point and look all the way through ... and we'll see why it makes sense to follow more "refined" paths in pursuit of all fo the things that we do. OK, 'Nuff of my noise. I haven't even had any caffeine and I'm talking too much awreddy. Time for me to shuddup :-) All be well. Mitakyoaseh, Mik ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 7:36:48 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #505 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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