From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #506 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 27 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 506 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #505 eskrima: Kung Fu eskrima: Burokil eskrima: short announcement eskrima: viva la difference! eskrima: Ar Kansas eskrima: FMA Terms eskrima: Rewriting history eskrima: Collie? Lassie come home! Part three eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Suro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Ellner Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:48:12 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #505 Let me get this straight. Is a beginning student in FMA called a Kali pup? :-) ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 27 Oct 00 10:09:49 CDT Subject: eskrima: Kung Fu "Kung-fu", in Chinese, can apply to any skill. To think that the term was not in use in China is mistaken. It essentially conveys the concept of leisure time and/or hard work. So, hard work over time yields skill. One can have "Good kung fu" in sewing, math/physics, baseball, gymnastics, whatever. That's an old generic usage of the term which predates its use in the U.S. or anywhere else to refer to martial arts. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: Alex France Date: 27 Oct 2000 08:29:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Burokil Dear Gat Puno Abon, So, burokil or brokil is the name of the weapon used, not the name of an art! Thank you for taking the time to let me (and others on the Digest) know. I always look forward to your knowledgeable contributions to the Digest...and I am impatiently waiting for your announced hilot program to reach California! Respectfully, Alex(ander Bautista Bayot France) ------------------------------ From: Nate Defensor Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:48:19 -0500 Subject: eskrima: short announcement Announcement: For those in the Chicagoland area & vicinity: Jimmy Tacosa Short Seminar hosted by Filipino Kali-Eskrima Academy of Chicago Friday, October 27, 2000 7pm-9pm - Friday Night Class at Rizal Center, 1332 W. Irving Park Rd. , Chicago, 2nd floor dance studio. We are fortunate & honored to have a very special Guest Instructor on this night, Master Jimmy Tacosa. Guro Jimmy Tacosa's Bio: Few eskrimadors living in the United States have had the opportunities that Guro Jimmy Tacosa has experienced. By virtue of growing up in Stockton, California he learned from 2 great Masters. He was taught the Phillipine empty-hand system of Cadena de Mano by Max Sarmiento and is a first generation instructor. After a 15 year tenure under Grandmaster Angel Cabales, Guro Tacosa was awarded a Masters Certificate in Serrada Eskrima and was asked to pass the art onto a new generation. Tacosa is recognized as one of the foremost exponents of Serrada Eskrima in the world. Although there are many instructors of the Phillipine Martial Arts, Guro Tacosa is one of a select few to have trained with the masters while they were in their prime. Tacosa was part of the Grass Roots movement for the perpetuation of Phillipine Martial Culture in the United States and the world. We invite you to take this opportunity to learn from one of the most dynamic practitioners and teachers within the Phillipine Martial Arts community. Cost only $25 per person. Filipino "buffet" downstairs after class & ballroom dancing for those interested sponsored by FACC (Filipino American Community Council ------------------------------ From: "Dale" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:45:58 -0500 Subject: eskrima: viva la difference! <> I'm with Bear on his last post, but why be the same? Vanilla Eskrima, yuck. Why not embrace the differences as proof of historical diversity? In civilizations that have not had a long history of literacy, national language, or dialect, why split hairs over words? (No disrespect intended.) I think survival was the original motivation for secrecy. Historically, groups didn't share martial secrets. That was their advantage. Some instructors didn't even share knowledge with all students. Now, in this free information world we live in, groups CAN and DO share knowledge globally for the first time. (Thanks to GPB Ray.) It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that things are....different. The way things have been on the ED lately, seems like you don't have to worry about another martial artist pulling a "pointed stick" on you, just watch out for the guy packing phonetic spelling. - ------------------------------------------- See you in the sticks, Dale MCP, MCP+I, MCSE Wk: 804-292-7421 www.kalieskrima.com - ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Kendal Coats Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Ar Kansas <> Indeed that would truely be interesting, but if they ventured to take a look at the water, they would see that the river flows from Kansas to Oklahoma to Arkansas, to the Mississippi River, but I would never expect a Jayhawk to be able to read a map (ha ha) GO SOONERS (Just some harmless fun, no offense to buddy) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Chaplain Brian T. Henderson" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:06:09 -0700 Subject: eskrima: FMA Terms On an earlier digest I read: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - "Maybe you couldn't find anyone who knew anything about the Filipino arts because you were asking about "Kali". I beg to differ; I have never met a Filipino, young or old, who has never heard of Eskrima or Arnis." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In part I would agree with this. Please allow me to make it clear, I am not an expert in anything! I did however live in the Philippines for over 4 years. I was a criminal investigator in the Air Force and worked extensively off base with the Philippine Constabulary and the Angeles City Police Dept. During this time, I discovered that quiet a few of the "unsavory" characters (criminal types), had at least a street level introduction to weapons, and they were not afraid to use this knowledge to intimidate and bully others. And typical to the "criminal" mentality they were unafraid to loudly proclaim their expertise with the weapon. But then there was another type of person who was proficient with weaponry and self defense as well- the soft spoken older man. Many times I observed these two groups clashing, and the would be "victim" became the victor. The point being, neither one of these two persons claimed to be an Escrima, Arnis, or Kali student, but obviously they both had a certain knowledge. Often times, I heard the older intended victim state, "I just played with him a little". An interesting statement, when I was looking at a young thug with his hand or arm nearly severed, or his eye poked out, or his head cracked wide open. What art was the thief practicing? The ancient are of victimization? What art was the old man/would be victim practicing? He did not say, in fact he did not even call it fighting, or self defense, he simply said he "played" with him! Clearly my experience back in the early and mid 80's taught me FMA is far from dead in the Filipinos, in fact I believe it is an integral part of who they are. I could expand on this with other observations I made during my exciting time in the Philippines but I believe many of the issues that I would bring up have already been addressed on this digest. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to share my experience. May God richly bless you all! Brian Henderson bthondo@ix.netcom.com http://www.cmaministry.com http://www.cmaministry.com/chaplain ------------------------------ From: "Bill Lowery" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:44:02 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Rewriting history Hi All, >They feel that Americans rewrite history the way it suits them (and maybe whats worse is, you feed it back to them as FACTS).< What, you mean like the recent film which showed the USA retrieving the enigma machine which helped shorten the second world war (it was actually us Brits - precisley a young man from just up the road to myself in Wallsend). Americans like to view world history as their history, with other countries/cultures being secondary to their own. Recognise this fact and move on. Let them deal with it on thier own. Bill ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:31:59 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Collie? Lassie come home! Part three A Howl of Greeting to All: Today's episode: > Terminology, smerminology.......This is America, would those same people who > are so easily offended by our misuse of their language ever set down in their > own country and formalize the terms? , , , I hear all this talk, but that is all it is. If > the Masters in the Philippines will set down together and say OK this is this > and that is that I am sure that everyone here will go along. , , , , >Bear I agree. The reason we here in America get it "wrong" so often is so often what we hear is inconsistent. - ---------------- > > Marc, > > I was reading the history of Kabaroan, it was new term from the old term > Kadaanan. Also GM E. also claim was born in San Pablo, Laguna. Study the arts > in Pampangga from his childhood experience show how he developed the arts now > known as Kabaroan, a new arts. Off course everytime we study old way we > developed something, for the better, that make the arts more better before, > adding techniques and absorbing is natural to all of us Studying FMA. Guro > Inosanto said it also Absorb what is usedfull. > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > > > > << I remember the time he attended GM Estalilla's Kabaroan > seminar. GM E. is from Luzon, yet when he showed certain techniques Guro I. > whispered to me that they could not be from Luzon and were probably from , > , ,ummm, I forget where. Later, in conversation with GM E. it came out > that there was a point in the evolution of Kabaroan where techniques were > shared in a refugee camp with men from exactly where Guro I had predicted > (I hope I have this bit about the history of Kabaroan right-- I ask the > Kabaroan people on the list to correct me if not) The point is that he > could tell the region of the technique just by looking at it. > Thank you Gat Puno Abon. - ----------------------- > Greetings and salutations, Mr. Crafty! ( May your doggie Moro-moro > always faithfully protect you from the forces of evil...) > > Always good to hear from you. Likewise. Just a few IMHO and comments on your > post: > > > By way of analogy if Europe were to be/become one country, some of > these conversations make as much sense as an Englishmen and a Spaniard arguing over the word > "book" versus "libro."-- or an American black getting mad at a Mexican for > using the word "negro"-- in America such a term these days is considered > rude,but in Mexico it simply means "black". No disrespect intended, I just > don't get the terminology testiness thing. (As noted, we Americans can be > pretty inscrutable to Asians too!) > > I respectfully disagree with your analogies...in the first case, words > from two diffferent languages are used to identify or refer to the same > object. Maybe I'm misunderstanding completely (won't be the first or the last time) but it seems to me that many of the Filipino terminology disputes are EXACTLY that e.g. hubud means "to untie" vs. "No, you're wrong! It means to undress!" Different languages, different meanings. > Unless you mean by the above that "kali" is indeed an American English > (or other non-Filipino language) word used to refer to weapons-oriented > martial arts practiced in the Phil., which the Filipinos refer to by the > words "Arnis, " "Eskrima," "Baston," among others, then we (you and I at > least) have no argument...we are simply refering to the exact same thing > by words that belong to totally different languages. Unfortunately, > from what I understand, the word 'kali" is supposed to be a Filipino > word, and this is where the argument begins. IMHO, it would be more > like the Englishman were insisting to the Spandiard that "espejo" is > the proper Spanish word for the object we call a "book" in English. > > >With that said, I just don't understand what seems like some people >> being upset with the word "kali". > > Upset...mmm, maybe not...but IMHO I just don't use word. When I speak > to Filipinos about FMAs I like to be sure we're talking about the same > thing. "Kali" (the word) just doesn't cut it... Umm, OK, but let me take another stab (sic) at presenting the logic underlying my position. If you and your friends are from languages where this is not the term, it does not disprove the validity of what I am saying even though you are Filipino and I am not. My thought process is that if I can show any valid use of the term "kali" in the Philippines, then I can use it too. Is this reasoning sound or is there a flaw in it? If sound, I have already named several Filipino users of the term. Furthermore, although I don't have it in front of me, if memory serves I would make the point that the users of the term "kali" in PG Sulite's book predate the allegations of humoring the Americans for money. > >I don't understand how such certainty can be > >brought to any matter linguistic in the Philippines. Hell, I don't > >understand how Filipinos have conversations where one speaks in one > >language and the other speaks in another, or how individuals seemingly > speak in several languages at once. I readily admit my ignorance, and if anyone > can help raise my level I would be glad of it. > > Don't fret none, even smart people have a hard time with this... : 8 ) > Seriously, when Fil. speak with one another, they usually > a) speak in the same regional/provincial/village language, say Cebuano > or Ibanag, depending on where they are at the time > b) if both parties do not speak a common Filipino language, they may > resort to Tagalog-based "Filipino," the alleged national language > c) in some cases, two distinct languages are similiar enough to > facilitate communication, to an practical extent... > c) or they may resort to "ispokening dollars" (aka speaking in > English)...in the end communication is facilitated... We Americans tend to be quite ignorant when it comes to learning other languages. By virtue of the spread of English by the English Empire, the unique circumstances at the end of WW2, the role of our economy in the world economy, and our occasional forays into outright colonialism, English is arguably the tagalog of the world. I know how hard I have had to work to learn Spanish, and the number of languages spoken by many Filipinos impresses the hell out of me. I remember when I was helping PG Edgar shoot his very first video "Lameco at the Vortex". He was very concerned that his English, especially with his accent, was not good enough and asked me to do a voice over instead while he demonstrated. It occurred to me to ask him how many languages he spoke. The answer was "five". One of the reasons I suggested to him that we have an extended interview at the end of the video was so that I could ask him this question so that the mostly American audience could appreciate this fact. > >Punong Guro Edgar Sulite titled a wonderful book he wrote "Masters of > >Kali, Arnis, Eskrima". Are the masters in his book who use the term > kali deluded? The Villabraille people use the term kali, the Pekiti Tirsia > people use the term kali, the Ilustrisimo people use the term kali, and many > others. Are they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? > > Twaddle is too strong a word...(ain't a twaddle that fleshy thang that > dangles from the necks of old ladies?) I believe you are thinking of "wattle" which sounds quite similar. A wattle is the fleshy thing that hangs from the necks of turkeys, roosters, and old ladies. ;-) > No, I do not believe that they are deluded. Quite the contrary. > However, since I have not met any of the GM's or practitioners of the > schools mentioned, I will not conjecture as to their decision to use the > word "kali" in the official (?) names of their respective schools. > > I have read somewhere (on this digest I think), though, that the > Illustrismo group used it fairly recently and only after they started > teaching it in the United States. I read a post on another digest of > the Pekiti-Tersia group, but it did not indicate whether they had always > used the term or not. I am not familiar with the Villabraille group. > Given the opportunity I would respectfully both ask the PKI group and > the Villabraille group 1.) if they always used the word (as far back as > when), 2.) when they began as a group 3.) and if they used another > word, what was it? I too would be glad to hear this. There is also the matter to which I referred above about the masters in PG Sulite's book. > >On the first Dog Brothers Martial Arts t-shirt it says "Kali-silat and > >others". Why did I go with such a term? I chose the term Kali because > I associate it with the courageous fighting spirit that was shown in the > >southern Philippines by the Moros > > The term "silat" is a term used by the Muslim Filipinos for their > martial arts, so your usage may be appropriate. "Kali" I understand is > not used by the Muslim Filipinos to refer to their martial arts. Also, > I believe silat and arnis are distinct styles. I agree that silat and arnis are distinct. I would say that DBMA in substantial, but not total part, falls within the concept of the Majapahit Empire. Thus the influence of Indonesian Silat (Bukti Negara), Krabi Krabong and Bando is consistent. Except when the terms are being used interchangably, I see Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali as a continuum with no clear separation between them but still they are not identical. Kali is the most "silat-ish" of the three and I believe "Kali-silat and others" is the best name for what DBMA was at the time that I chose it. > >(can I use this term? I'm confused-- I'm > >told to call someone a Moro is disrespectful--at least in some > >dialects/languages-- yet there is today the Moro Liberation Front) > > My Muslim filipino classmate (part of Muslim royalty btw) told me that > it is disrespectful...I am also confused why the MNLF and MILF use that > word. I shall try to find out...in the meantime, I'd advise one not to > use it. [Still sore about your doggie's name? : 8 ) ] Well, I certainly have no intention of using the word anymore! But what do I call those people with the krises in the jungles lopping off Spanish and then American heads? As for my dog's name I'm not sore because I had no wish to use an offensive term and so renamed him after Morro Bay in California. Since he can't spell, he doesn't know his name has been changed and answer to the new one and so it all works out. :-) > >By the criteria of some Filipinos, this may not be right, but I am an > American in America. Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that > of highest respect? > > If a Filipino in the Philippines used a derogatory word for a Jew (say > "X"), and, not understanding it to be derogatory, used it in a sign for > his Philippine-Jewish friendship Society banner ("X"-Filipino Friendship > Society), would it be any less inappropriate? "Kali" may or may not be > offensive, but it is controversial and IMHO still very questionable... Well I'm certainly glad that it isn't offensive! > > >but I would offer that, as has been so well pointed out by > >several members of this list well qualified to do so, the FMA can be a > >matter of great secrecy in the Philippines to an extent that is hard > for those who have not experienced it to appreciate. Thus, for me, it > >logically follows that it can be very easy for each group to not know > much about other groups- be it their terminology, techniques, or training methods. > And logically, a "general-all-encompassing-ever-lovin'-total" history of > the FMAs is premature. No true research has been done. > > > > The point is that he could tell the region of the technique just by > looking at it. > > Interesting considering he never travelled to the PI. Yes it is interesting. As I mentioned in my previous post, Guro I. was blessed to be raised in an environment of Filipino masters quite unusual in its diversity. And starting then and continuing to this day he has been an extraordinarily sedulous student-- witness his beginning in Kabaroan at the age of 64. > Last IMHO: "Kung-fu" was used for years in the U.S. to refer to the > Chinese martial arts, although I read that up to the early '80s, if you > travelled to the chinese mainland, no one there would understand that > you meant the CMAs...I think that this is simliar to what is going on > with "kali"... Yet they are not, to my knowledge "offended" or "culturally dominated" because they work with our silly barbarian ways. Anyway tenrec, thank you for sharing a dialogue with me. - --------------------------- > > Are they deluded or is it all just some twaddle to humor the Americans? > > > Some teachers do it. If some foreigners want exotic fantasy, there are > those who will make it up to sell to them. Market demand. > > >Why not take it in the spirit in which it was intended-- that of > >highest respect? > > I have personally witnessed the con. A guy comes over. Depending on how > credulous the individual is, the story is told to fit his fantasy. And > laughed about afterwards. Yet the foreigner believes the whole thing. Poor > guys. > > I've heard stories which are obviously greatly exaggerated. But people > still believe them. Go figure. It's the telephone game, by the time the > message gets to the last player, how close is it to what was originally > said? How often do we embellish our own stories to look better or boost our > egos? What makes people think that some "masters" aren't capable of doing > the same thing? BSing in the martial arts??? I'm shocked!!! Absolutely shocked!!! Seriously, I completely agree-- but what makes one assume that in no case is the foreigner avoiding an argument in order to get the most learning he can and for which he has travelled at great expense of time and money from halfway around the world? > There's a local saying, "You want good Chinese food, go to a restaurant > with alot of Chinese customers." Same thing here, we are MUCH harder to > fool. WE KNOW when they are BSing. Agreed! Which is why I hope to hook up with you in the Philippines some day! :-) > LPIII To summarize in closing: The matter of the term "kali", like so many linguistic and terminology matters, is a matter of dispute in the Philippines. There is no pleasing everyone. Some groups say that its use is to humor the Americans by culturally dominated Filipinos (obviously I'm restating matters a bit here) . But I suspect that those who use the term might take offense at this!!! I agree that humoring the foreigners often goes on, I have given several examples of Filipinos who do use the term. Anyone who thinks I am "wrong" to use the term is free to persuade these sources, or those that are still alive at any rate. Persuade them and you persuade me. But why not just go along to get along? Because according to my training from my teacher, whom I respect totally, this term is most accurate for what I try to do. I believe that there are differences, for example in the concept of the footwork, in the throws, and other mattes. I only hear that SOME people think the term is wrong. I respect that. Others, some of them my teachers do not. I respect that too. But in the face of seemingly continuous and everlasting terminology disputes in the FMA pleasing everyone seems an impossibility-- just like life! And so I decline the invitation to attempt the impossible. Woof, Crafty ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:21:12 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #506 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.