From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #510 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 30 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 510 In this issue: eskrima: Doggie returns home Part 4 eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #509 eskrima: Striking with a "light" stick eskrima: Stick speed eskrima: question eskrima: Re: Speed/Power Revisited eskrima: Hitting Hard and Higher Techniques eskrima: Meaning of "Tuhon" eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 09:40:19 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Doggie returns home Part 4 A Howl of Greeting to All > From: "David Eke" > > Clearly the "kali" thread has been beaten to death. Agreed. What follows I hope will be my last on this topic. >For me I've always > considered that the FMAs was more than just learning technique. There are > things you learn which you , , , ,can only get from living it. Living it doesn't mean spending a > couple of weeks, forking out a few thousand and walking away with a black > belt. , , , I think it safe to say that everyone agrees with this. > Times have changed in the PI. With a careful introduction 15 years ago you > could get to "play" with instructors of other styles. We would get together > "you show me your technique, this is our counter". Many times we would sit > and drink beer and they would tell stories (and they would laugh at me > trying to speak Cebuano). They would teach you stuff if they felt that your > heart was in the right place and you showed them the respect they deserved. > > Now it just doesn't happen, not like that anyway. Most of the old timers are > dead. Many of the new breed of instructors don't have the same depth of > knowledge and they are only looking for the dollar. When taking to locals I > don't even mention I train in escrima. If you tell them the word gets around > and some "wantabe instructor" comes around offering to teach. > > > Sort of the same thread, the last seminar which I went to of Guro Dans was > when he told us he had never been to the Philippines. How could someone who > claimed so much knowledge about the Philippines not have been there himself? > I have read the posts which claim the "Masters in Stockton" were so diverse > that it was unnessessary, I doubt it. How does someone gain so much > knowledge second hand that it is unnecessary for him to go and see for > himself? I cannot think of any of Guro I's FMA training that has been "second hand." All of it has been from high level Filipino masters. And please forgive my lack of tact, but it would seem that despite his never having been to the Philippines, the recent repost by Bill McGrath of something that David Reyes wrote shows that he got it right conderning 'kali" when some living in the Phlippines (would that include you?) did not. In Cebu at the time of his writing the book and even when he said > that he had never been to the PI in 87 many of the old GM had still been > alive. Bacon, Velez, Villisen, Maranga, Caburnay and the Canete brothers > (just to name the prominent ones) if he thought it was unnecessary to train > with them he was sadly mistaken. Guro Dan has the gift of the teacher, to > make people understand not just the technique but the idea behind it. He > would have been the perfect voice to give these GMs what was due to them, > recognition of their skill. . I am reminded of the silly joke about the Jewish mother who gives her son two ties for his birthday. When she comes to visit, he wears one of the ties. "Vat!" she says, "You didn't like the other one?" Few men have been as dedicated as Guro I. to shining the light and giving credit to those who have lived and transmitted the FMA. Please consider this. It is an impossibility to have trained with them all and an impossibility to have given credit to them all. > Instead those words in his book (however you take them) "about escrima being > dead in the Philippines" it effectively stopped him (and others who took the > quote literally) experiencing these GM's first hand. An interesting point, but would you not overall agree that his effect has been to stimulate interest in the FMA--- including that wave of "humored" foreigners culturally overwhelming "ignorant" masters into using the "wrong" term for their art? (Attention literal minded people-- this last sentence is sarcastic!) >I consider myself lucky > and privileged to have met and experienced some of them. Indeed you are and I envy you for it! >Having never > experienced the "Masters from Stockton" I can make no comparison. Quite true. >As for > Guro Dan writing a new book, I will not bother buying it. Such is life. We will endeavor to carry on nonetheless. > The opportunity to > showcase and provide a learning tool which voices the diversity, knowledge > and skills within the Philippines has been lost. I have a bit of a sense of cognitive dissonance here. The masters were/are secretive, but you/they? are mad that they weren't showcased? Look, I too have a great sense of sadness at how much is being lost. When I was in Negros with GT Gaje, he introduced my to a completely unknown master who impressed me greatly. I asked about his teaching, but he had no students because he didn't want anyone "using the art against him". Now, here is a man in his mid 60s thinking like this. But whose responsibility is it that much (most?) of his knowledge will die with him? I submit for consideration that it is not Guro I. Anyway, my son has just woken up and that is more important to me than all this. I close by restating a point I made previously. As students have done from the beginning of time, sometimes some of us don't get things quite right and sometimes get carried away in the passion which has been ignited by a teacher. It goes with being a student. This includes those of us who are students of Guro I. I only ask that you consider that the mistakes are ours, and not his. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:34:05 -0800 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #509 David Eke's post about living the FMA's touched a chord in my heart. I was an MA and FMA student in RP for about 15 years; I have spent an equal number of years in the arts in the US, including the "Inosanto Kali." After all these years, I would hesitate to call my historical knowledge of and technical expertise in the FMA as "adequate." The breadth and depth, the myriads of styles and branches, the common rich texture as well as the seeming contradictions of systems (complex triangle footwork vs. no footwork because you are knee-deep in mud, largo vs. close quarter combat, long whippy sticks like Mat Marinas' pananandata vs. Cabales or serrada short stick, Muslims in sarong with krises and kampilan vs. cebuanos in T-shirts with espadas) are mind-boggling. We are all like blind men feeling an elephant. The common (thin) thread that hopefully binds us together is our love for the Philippines (whether Filipino or non-Filipino, still in the Philippines or now an immigrant in the US), respect for its martial arts (whether you call it arnis, eskrima, kali or a classical name) and gratitude towards our forbears who have gifted us with them (be it a grandmaster carrying on the family tradition in Cebu or a manong who immigrated to Stockton). All I know is, I still have a long way to go feeling that elephant. Jay de Leon ------------------------------ From: "Don Edwards" Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 23:38:37 GMT Subject: eskrima: Striking with a "light" stick An observation concerning the previous post on using lighter sticks ... We've been fighting with relatively light sticks for years now..we also use heavier sticks as well... in the right hands both hurt..we've seen fighters, with WEKAF style helmets on, hit so hard with the lighter sticks that some resulted in concussions...and some VERY ugly, large bruises through the body armor as well... the wrist motion has alot to do with it ... definitely generates additional force .. and like anything else takes lots of practice to develop. One curious side note though, I see less injuries as the gear starts to come off... you can have a tendancy to fasley rely on the gear for protection rather than on a heightened sense of awareness for defense. Don Edwards Integrated Martial Arts Livingston, NJ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:13:56 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Stick speed "BTW, we practise in our Stick (not sword) training, to use the wrist to accelerate the stick when striking. This way the stick gets extremly fast compared to a strike with a fixed wrist." Hmm...This is tricky! In my experience too much or too early wrist application actually slows the stick down. Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: HUBBARDNOW@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 00:59:38 EST Subject: eskrima: question While in the Philippines I was fortunate enough to go to some underground tournaments and witnessed some demonstrations that I was hoping one of you Physics Gyros :-) could explain. 1. Large Ice Blocks broken with a blow from a forehead. (I know the heat but the ice was solid and pretty clear) 2. A length of #4 rebar (1\2") about 10' long placed against one man's throat with a man on the other end who appeared to shove it straight against the first guys throat. It would bend like a pole vaulters pole. ( I realize you could flex the rebar to do this but the other end is still on the guys throat) 3. My favorite what appeared to be a clay brick was placed on the ground (in this case a cement pad) flat on the cement. Then the individual broke it with a punch. Followed by three bricks stacked and the only one that broke was the bottom one. Again all bricks are stacked flat with nothing between them. I know bricks can be heat treated to break but I took one back to my ship and was unable to break it in the same manner until I used my Louis Ville Slugger. Respectfully John ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:04:04 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power Revisited eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > > ======================= > From: "Jeff T. Inman" > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:00:34 -0600 (MDT) > Subject: eskrima: Re: Speed/Power Revisited > > A couple of folks have distinguished kinetic energy from power: > > Power = Mass * Velocity > KE = 1/2 Mass * (Velocity squared) > > If kinetic energy is what we're interested in, the fact that > it involves velocity SQUARED has some interesting implications: > > (1) If you hit someone with a stick that's twice as heavy but moving > at the same speed, you double the power and you double the kinetic > energy. > > (2) If you hit someone with the original stick but twice as fast, > you double the power but you quadruple the kinetic energy. > If kinetic energy really is the relevant factor, then you'd do > better to hit harder than you would to carry a heavier stick, > assuming you're already carrying a stick that is as heavy as > you can swing quickly. > > I know that there are guys that I've fought with who will simply > not be deterred with a light stick. You can not hit them hard > enough with it to make an impression on them. I'm guessing this > only seems to contradict the lessons from the kinetic energy > equations, and that what is actually going on is that we're > already swinging the heavy sticks at pretty fast speeds (perhaps > limited by the viscosity of air), and so with a stick half as > massive, it's hard to swing it enough faster to gain the advantage > of the velocity being squared. Your guess is on the money. Well phrased. While it's important to understand the relationships, it's also important to compare the magnitudes of the components. In KE, low velocities don't contribute much even with the square. In these cases, doubling the mass is more significant than doubling the velocity. You talked about this when you compared light vs. heavy sticks. Human bodies are only capable of delivering strikes up to certain velocities. When this velocity limit is reached, mass becomes the determining factor. I believe this to explain why smaller, thinner people have a harder time delivering power even though they are fast. Lightweight boxers train maximally, but they still have a hard time matching the heavyweights. Hence, weight classes were introduced. The problem is that small people need to be much faster than big people. Also, muscular strength is determined by cross sectional (thin slice of meat) area rather than the volume (a hunk of meat). This explains why a fellow with arms that are twice as heavy as another fellow's (for similar conditioning) is not twice as strong. The big guy needs to have arms that are twice as thick and wide (well, kinda) to be twice as strong. Oh no. We've ignored the value of hitting first. Now we fight! ------------------------------ From: Eric Knaus Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 00:54:37 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Hitting Hard and Higher Techniques Regarding Chad's response to the "Gentleman etc." comment. Amen on that one. I can't tell you how many "refined gentlemen" with a stick in their hand and a Platonic view of what the perfect form of stick fighting should be, have ended up eating their high level techniques for lack of power - or as Marc would put it, simply change their mind. If you want to pull off that really cool disarm or that high/low block followed by a foot sweep or blow to the head, be sure to first have "your shot" developed to the point where it will break something if it's not dealt with right then and there. The bottom line is - how much damage can be done. Power is the air that breathes life in to your higher techniques and allows them to exist in real time. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 06:26:54 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Meaning of "Tuhon" I asked Tuhon Gaje to give me the origin and deffinition of the word "Tuhon". Here is his response. "Tuhon is a malay word addressed to someone in authority or higher in rank or as expressed for respect. Used to addressed as your majesty, your lordship,your honor,your highness. For kalimen it is addressed to person who as the supreme wisdom, or talent as to the healers, medicine man,.Chieftain or Sultanates. Tuhon in the case of our systems is used for higher respect in authority with the highest technology and with supreme power over the teritorial domain. It is indigenous in its meaning but filled with wisdom and knowledge related to the PTK as a system." Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 7:09:31 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #510 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.