From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #513 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 31 Oct 2000 Vol 07 : Num 513 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Demonstration tricks eskrima: Hitting Harder eskrima: protection Re: eskrima: Hitting Harder eskrima: Kali eskrima: calling david reyes... eskrima: re 'Tuhan/Tuhon/Tuan eskrima: Stick speed eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Goldmakher Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:41:36 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Demonstration tricks Tommy the debunker wrote: > Other standard tricks in this vein include the guy who lets his students > kick him full power in the groin Solutions to this problem includes > standing up during the demo and shouting "Let me be the one doing the > kicking!". They won't let you. Really. On the others, I have nothing to contribute. On this one, I must say that I have personally been to a class (Japanese Jujitsu) where the instructor not only allowed, but actually encouraged me to be the kicker. He then yelled at me for not kicking him hard enough until I really let fly with a good one. I literally almost lifted him off the ground with the kick, and he did not appear to mind this at all. His senior students were also able to do this. He also asked me to punch him in the throat, which I did, and other neat stuff like that. I was actually going to start learning these things, but the instructor got a job in another city (teaching was just a sideline thing for him) and had to move away. So, this one may not always be B.S. Greg G. ------------------------------ From: Mikal Keenan Date: 31 Oct 00 08:45:44 CST Subject: eskrima: Hitting Harder > >>Anyone can hit harder. > Only if they practice hitting hard...and they won't be able to hit > harder in a fight, unless they practice hitting harder in a fight. You miss the point hombre ... point is, for learning/training/acquiring and refining skill: Forget about how hard one can hit and train to hit -well-. At any given moment I know that I can hit hard enough to put my fist/foot/elbow through 4 to 5 boards ... but I don't practice hitting hard in my attempts to continuously maintain and refine my body's ability to express itself in fighting. Saturday I was working with a guy who has a black belt from a local TKD/Hapkido/BJJ/UFCIsEverything school. He's ready to slam around in training with me ... but cannot keep pace with me in some of the most basic thigns that I insist he must be able to do first ... fundamentl stuff related to posture, coordination, and delivery of basic empty hand and weapons techniques. I'm nobody special, but I've been doing this for 30 years. What I can see in this fellow is that if he doesn't come around now he can hang it up if somebody ambushes his arse in the real world. Saturday afternoon he interrupted me 3 times to tell or show me how he trained in the past ... it was sorta like "Eh, I can kick your butt buddy." Patiently I explained to him how his approach was lacking and delusional, i.e., someone with a little bit of cool and finesse would serve him something real quick. He was so sold on POWER, that he couldn't see what I was trying to explain until I had him do a basic double stick coordination drill learned from the late master Bujianin Mateen of Pekiti Tirsia. The guy couldn't do it. It was fricked up from the ground up. Threw "O Gingad" at him and he was lost. If he comes back :-) I may let him show me how tough he is, i.e., he signed the release form, knwo what I mean? Guy obviously wanted to hurt me, but by the end of the class he sat down on the floor and confided to me "I guess I oughtta just throw my black belt away." So, the point is that anyone can hit harder. Whjat's important is that depending on how far one wants to go in developing good kung fu (skill) in these things, it is advisable to follow the natural progression of accuracy in posture/motion/coordination before continuity/flow ... continuity/flow before emphasizing speed ... and leave hitting harder (power) to "afterthought", i.e., once the machine is prepped to ramp up the power, then and only then should we up the power. Otherwise we hurt ourselves. I compare it to thrill-seekers who do all kinds of wild stuff when they're young, then can't do much of anything when they get old (if they get old). Practically speaking ... if we rush to power "play" without cultivating foundational aspects of good training, not only will our skill be less fine than if we pursued training in finer ways, but the body will also be injured. Simply put: Degenerative Joint Disease ... Arthritis baby. Hitting Hard: I train regularly with sticks of varying length and weight. On a good Saturday I will hit hard with all of them for up to 5 hours (using a Tahi-style heavy bag so as to work high mid and low). On a short day I'll do the same using only the heaviest sticks ... I may pause for a few seconds between 5 to 6 minute rounds of continuous heavy hitting (double stick). On a 3rd day after training this way I don't have to try to hit harder ... the body is simply able to hit harder and does so automatically. Friend, I'm just trying to tell you what I know. It's partially based on what is called the S.A.I.D. principle: Specific Adaptation to Increased Demands. All dynamic systems, both living and non-living, display this attribute in some way. There is a pattern to follow in the progression of the type and quality of the demands that we place on mind and/or body when we seek to opitimize our outcomes. Whether you hear it from a biological scientist or a master like Cabales or somebody it's going to be the same. I'm willing to bet that if we sat down with some of the old masters in various martial arts they'll tell you the same thing. Emphasis on power is characterized by rushing. In rushing we skip over development of attributes which support the expression of max power when we need it. I once fought a guy who was far more powerful than I ... same height, weight etc., but in fighting his every move was expressed in a way that caused him great vulnerability. I cringed at the thought of fighting him but one day I had to. When we fought I was not allowed to warm up ... he had already fought a few rounds and was hopping ready to go. When I stepped onto the floor I shook for the first time in my life ... fear baby ... we were both instructors, he was younger and less concerned about hurting people :-) Except for the cup we wore no protective gear and fought full contact. When we faced off the tension was incredible, neither of us moved ... then I hooked him lightly. This guy flared up so mean, man ... but at that moment he was completely vulnerable ... I could have hit him again anywhere that I wanted to (last thing on my mind, I wanted OUT!:-) Long story short he went on to throw all kinds of stuff at me ... it was like facing a locomotive, everything was da bomb ... but he never touched me ... I can still feel this or that limb brushing over my shoulder or back as I moved. At one point I stumbled (I wuz still shakin mon). Fight ended with my foot sidekicking his groin from the ground. Esse es la vida. An old man's advice: Don't worry about hitting hard or with power until after refining the underlying mechanisms for the delivery of power. If that guy had been more accurate or able to express all of his methods more fluidly, or I was less capable of evading what he threw (maybe I was just lucky!) I would have been -dead-. OTOH, if I had wanted to take the fight to him, the reverse might have been true ... it's just not my way to go there, and for what? Some jive petty ego-driven jealousy? Sheesh! I ain't gonna say dis no mo': Accuracy, Flow, Speed, Power. Holds true in developing any skill, not just FMA or CMA or whatever. The way to stop a power hitter is to make him miss. That suggests that the one who has the better underlying mechanics can have the upper hand. Did you see the 13th Warrior? Mee-tah-kee-yoh-ah-seh, Mik ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:56:52 -0000 Subject: eskrima: protection "Power is extremely important but better mechanics can neutralize power. An everyday example of good engineering is the Airbag in you car. The math of energy absorbsion by a ballon is impressive." That's why I am growing my beer belly, for extra protection! Regards Richard "A Person Always in Search of More Power, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca." ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 8:58:18 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Hitting Harder > Friend, I'm just trying to tell you what I know. Isn't that what many are doing here? Expressing what they 'know'... Yet what we 'know' may often differ with what others 'know', even among those that have been there and done that... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:24:45 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Kali > I was told by an American Instructor > (who was taught by an American) that there wasn't anything worth learning > in the Philippines. That all that was done out here was that "Arnis S--t". > That if the source didn't come from a couple of Manongs from Hawaii or CA, > it wasn't any good. Believe it or not. As neither him nor his Instructor > had ever been to the Philippines, that opinion was based on a second hand > source. As a Filipino being told something which was known not to be true, > with so much authority, his statement would be taken negatively. Hi, I think the reason for th slight arrogant behaviour of the american is, that he might have learned, that Kali consists out of 12 weapon categories, Eskrima has only 7 and Arnis only 5 (or 3, I don´t remember for sure). As far as I know, this is what is taught in the Inosanto blend. That of course leads very easily to the opinion: 12 is more than 7 or 5, so the system with 12 categories must be better/superior. As far as I have learned and understand, Arnis, Kali and Eskrima are only words to describe: this system is FMA. Arnis Kali nad Eskrima does not describe a particular style, just the same as when you say you drive a car, station wagon or motorbike, still nobody knows exactly what brand of vehicle it is, how much power it has etc. He just knows the category. He knows, a car is not a bike, just as one knows, Arnis, Kali and Eskrima is Filipino compared to Karate - Japanese (which is not a style either until you say Goju-Ryu, Shotokan etc). Dieter - -- Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:25:47 +0000 Subject: eskrima: calling david reyes... As the "kali" thread grinds to a whimpering halt, my last post (until next time) From: "BILL MCGRATH" >I remember from the first day I began training with Tuhon Gaje back in 1975 >that he used the term kali to describe the original term for the FMAs (he >also included in his lectures the stories about the inspiration for the >invention of the 1911 Colt .45 and the term "leathernecks" as coming from >American experiences during the occupation of the Philippines in 1905, so >that might be where Guro Inosanto got them). >Down through the years I got the impression that he used the term because he >preferred it over the words derived from the Spanish - i.e. "Arnis" and >"Eskrima". I was wondering if you could ask him a couple of questions (respectfully of course) the next time you see him: 1. Prior to 1975 what was his style called? 2. What name did his instructors use for Arnis, and approximately how far back? I understand he is from Negros Occidental (Bacolod or whereabouts exactly?)...my sources from there do not understand the term "kali" either... >The following was recently posted on the escrima-arnis list during their own >version of the annual kali argument. Please keep your eyes open for two >dates: 1927 & 1610 >....." Ang Kali, unang pangalan na larong "arnis" nuong bago dumating ang >> mga kastilya dito sa atin. Ang KALIS, hango din sa kali, ay gulok na >> binalila ang tabas at tanging gamit sa KALI. Ito'y laging nakasakbat sa >> baywang ng mga lalaki nuon kahit saan ang paroroonan. >> >> "Kung ang "S" ay ihulip sa "KALI" upang maging "Kalis" ang kahulugan ay >> espada o tabak, itak, dili kaya't gulok na mahaba kaysa pangkaraniwang >> gina gamit natin sa panahong ito. "Ang manggagawa ng KALIS y espadero. >> Tomas Pinpin, sa kanyang aklat: "Paaralan ng Wikang Kastilya....., >> Maynila, 1610." >> >> Buenaventura Mirafuente- Pangulo Ang Tabak ni Bonifacio, 1927 >> (Kap. sa Manglalaro ng Arnis sa Pilipinas) KASAPI SA: Philippine Librairy Association, at >>Bibliographical Society >> of the Philippines 1957. Thanks for posting this Mr. McGrath: I'm still trying (through my contacts) to get photocopy of this article...the original was posted to another digest, and I am confused as to which parts were quoted by Mirafuente were actually Pinpin's words. (More on this when I finally get a copy) However, this does appear to be the source that Drager and Smith (Asian Fighting Arts, 1974(?)) got based their Arnis section on, whose work seems to be the first written appearnce of the word in "western" vocabulary. (In discussions in other places on the "Net," I posted a lengthier reply to this...) My personal confusion centers on the quote "Ang manggagawa ng KALIS at espadero" and whether the material immediately before this line were indeed the words of T. Pinpin. "KALIS," which could mean knife, could also be translated as "chalice." In Fr. English's "Tagalog-English Dictionary," the origin of the word "kalis" is attributed to "caliz," spanish for saber... Again, if kalis is the basis for "kali," then "kali" came from the Spanish language.. Mr. Denny wrote: >I cannot think of any of Guro I's FMA training that has been "second hand." All of it has been >from high level Filipino masters. Well, without taking sides, let's not get into a "my kung-fu is better than your kung-fu" argument... >And please forgive my lack of tact, but it would seem that despite his never having been to the >Philippines, the recent repost by Bill McGrath of something that David Reyes wrote shows that he >got it right conderning 'kali" when some living in the Phlippines (would that include you?) did not. Again (respectfully to both parties), could we temporarily suspend our conclusions based on this post for a while...we are still examining the evidence...it may be (IMHO) premature to draw any conclusions from this post at this time... Until the next "kali" thread starts, anyone who has any new info/wants to discuss anything regarding "FMAs history/heritage," please do so via private emails... Nice dialogue/discussion guys! tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: John Chow Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:20:22 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re 'Tuhan/Tuhon/Tuan Mr. Wee wrote:- ************** Indeed. Tuhon or Tuan are used by Malays to address a well-respected person. In Silat circles here, we typically use "Tuan Guru/Tuhon Guro" to address a Chief Instructor and "Tok Guru" to address to head of style or very senior instructor (usually >50 yrs old). ************* Indeed! May I add a little more to this.............. 1) 'Tuan' by itself usually means Lord or Master (as in feudal times). 2) In more modern times, the workers refer to their employer or boss as 'Tuan' also. 3) In polite and courteous address, 'Tuan' is a high class gentleman. In addressing a crowd, we say 'Tuan Tuan dan Puan Puan' meaning 'Gentlemen and Ladies' (not 'Ladies and Gentlemen'). In this context, we also address our Silat teacher as Tuan Guru/Tuhon Guro if we very highly respect them. Normally, we just address them as 'Cikgu' which is the same address as we would address any school teacher or any teacher for the matter. 'Cikgu' is short for 'Encik Guru' - literally translated as 'Mister Teacher'. (note: not 'Master Teacher'). Silat masters are not very much in the habit collecting titles so we simply address them as 'Cikgu'. This is for the local scene, from when I was a young boy, without foreigner contact. I don't know the situation now. With foreigners, we may want to look bigger, and maybe we need 'extra weight' to push around............ something like 'Yang Sangat Hormat, Yang di Pertuan Agong Silat' or similar? 4) 'Tuhan/Tuhon' in this context is referred to as related to 'Tuan'. However, there is the same word 'Tuhan' that has an even higher meaning. It means 'God' or the Supreme Creator Being. As in 'Everything is created by Tuhan, and we place our faith in Tuhan only, and we beg his mercy'. Of course, being Islamic, the Tuhan referred to by name is 'Allah'. If I remember correctly, this word 'Tuhan' was enshrined in Malaysia's government system's '5 Pillars' :- "Belief in God/Tuhan" being the first pillar. This was at least in the late 1960s, early 1970s. However, I think nobody would interpret titles of Tuhan in Eskrima as refering to God - common sense prevails. This is what I can gather, from childhood memory. I admit I have not kept up with changes and developments, and the formation of Silat clubs and associations. I am only refering to the local scene in towns and villages. We just simply have Silat teachers - no clubs. But...... not being a kampong Malay myself, please don't take my words as truth. :):):) John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima ------------------------------ From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:13:52 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Stick speed "Not in our experience. We start with it from the first lesson, especially during the Sinawali, because there you can automatise the striking techniques. You have to correct a lot until the technique is right, but I think it is worth it. Because whe you strike with the wrist, the speed of the stick gets extremly high, (that means the strike hits hard), without too much body movement. The more parts of the body move (the more weight is moved move) the more muscles have to work, the more energy is used the earlier one gets tired. Just a matter of economy of motion." Reply: With all respect, I doubt that one can generate the same speed/power by wrist action as by the trunk rotation supported by the appropriate leg action. All other activities relying on generating power/speed with their implements, be it baseball, golf or tennis all use the body action. BTW if you try using your wrists to generate golf clubhead speed you will be sadly disappointed. Perhaps there is someone here who can comment on the baseball hitting action with more authority than I but my understanding is that the wrists break very late in the hitting action with little effort. Early wrist action will slow the bat down. "There are other reason to move, not to give a stable target, evade the hits, but you only need a minimum of body movement to hit hard, when you use your wrist." Reply: There is no doubt that one can hurt the opponent using a wrist flick, but real damage is done by the full effort (see DBMA Tape 1). Furthermore, using a heavier stick will make it more difficult to use wrist alone. "BTW, one more reason, why a lighter stick might not hurt as much as a heavy one: I think we all agree, that the strike should have maximum speed for highest possible kinetic energy transmission, when hitting a target. I think we all also agree, that if we hit with the same speed and a heavier stick, the kinetic energy is higher. I think now, it is much easier, to increase the weight of a stick (just pick up a heavier one), than to increase the speed of a strike. Would be an interesting experiment, of one could measure the speed of a strike: How much does a strike slow down, when the stick is twice as heavy. I would guess at the most 10 - 15%. In other words, I think one could not double the speed by reducing the weight by half. That would of course mean, that the same man (or woman) can strike harder with a heavier stick than with a light stick." Reply: I suspect that this is true. One can *initiate* the hit with a light stick much more quickly (and thus perhaps find an opening easier) but the terminal velocity of the business end of the stick will not be much different if proper body mechanics are employed. Furthermore, I suspect that the ratio of masses of the hitting object and the object hit matters. I.E. hitting a baseball with a baseball bat will transfer most of the kinetic energy from the bat to the ball which then travels out of the park (if you are lucky). If you strike a railway engine with the same bat very little kinetic energy will be transferred to the engine and the bat breaks. Thus a light stick will bounce off particularly if it is springy like rattan (soemone has already commented on this) and the kinetic energy is reflected back rather than absorbed in the target where one genrally wants it. "Even more interesting would be, how much the speed slows down, when executing 20 consecutive strikes with the heavy stick compared to a light stick and then measure the kinetic energy with both weapons at the last strike." Reply: The work done with the heavier stick will be greater by definition. Not surprisingly the fatigue factor will also be greater... Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:11:07 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #513 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.