From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #515 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 1 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 515 In this issue: eskrima: whips and shields eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: PT & DP? eskrima: forward eskrima: Demonstration tricks eskrima: Comment on M. Keenan's and Billy Mcgrath's post eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #514 eskrima: Head-Hunter of Northern Luzon eskrima: Re: stick speed and Re: "For Mr. Knuttel" eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "q" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:14:37 -0800 Subject: eskrima: whips and shields Jose wrote: > The second statement that got me was the apparent "arrogance" of an American FMA artist because his art of "Kali" teaches 12 weapons. First of all, I happen to know several JKD-FMA from the Inosanto camp, they've reported only learning the same weapons folks going to Doce Pares seminars learn. Secondly, all of the instructors he has learned from have younger generations here, near my area, and with the exception of the Largusa group and one other person whose name escapes me at this time, they all call their arts "Eskrima". Who taught these 12 weapons? Do you mean to tell me that you had classes in projectile weapons, and whips, and shields? I really doubt that. I also happen to know that most of those other weapons are used for hunting and warfare; not weapons taught as an art. Would you kindly describe for us a drill with the blow gun? Jose, I am a lowly student of Guro I. Since the Filipino Kali Academy in Harbor City California (1973) the whips and shields amoung other weapons have been there hanging on the walls for us to use. I was taught some whip and more shield but no blow gun. In the old days of the Marina Del Rey Inosanto (1986?) school the amazingly now famous Tony Delongis always had a passion for the whip. JC an old JKD class guy had keys to the school and we all went there to workout. Tony would always try to keep us at bay with the whip and we would try to smack him with sticks. We won some we lost some. Guro I believes that classes and an instructor can't teach you everything. You have to do personal research. In that time we played with any and all toys. Most of us also shot guns and I even remember a faction of individuals who thought for some reason that parachuting was a good martial experience. You would be surprised at the crap I have seen at the academy over the years and the gammit of experiences students paths have taken. Few items take the place of a good hard stick. JKD is a framework for experimentation. The goal of JKD is to sometimes teach you how to use a screwdriver for a hammer and a hammer as a screwdriver. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:20:23 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >One thing that you'll notice on the tape that is germane to the current >thread on power is the physiques on the guys that Eric fought. Several of >the guys were much more heavily muscled than Eric, yet Eric hit harder. Yes >part of it is more experience with swinging a stick but I think a lot of it >is mental. How many times have you seen someone hits the tires really hard, >but doesn't seem to be able to duplicate that power in real time? I think >coolness under stress allows you to deliver your full potential of power in >real time. Therefore I think we should add the human factor of experience >under pressure to our equation of power. > >Regards, >Tuhon Bill McGrath This reminds me of that old Cuban fighter Teofilo Stevenson. Tall, on the skinny side, didn't look like he punched very fast. When he hit you though, good night. Recall them prying open the mouth of one of his unconscious opponents, so the guy wouldn't choke on his mouthpiece. LPIII ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:28:54 -0500 Subject: eskrima: PT & DP? Ray asked: "Anyone know about when the Pekiti Tirsia family broke away from the Doce Pares family?" and Maurice Gatdula wrote: "the pekiti tirsia family, however was once part of the doce pares family ("eskrima") before they broke away to become there own. " This is news to me. Could you please elaborate. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:03:49 -0800 Subject: eskrima: forward A Howl etc: > From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:24:45 +0100 > Subject: eskrima: Kali > > > I was told by an American Instructor > > (who was taught by an American) that there wasn't anything worth learning > > in the Philippines. That all that was done out here was that "Arnis S--t". > > That if the source didn't come from a couple of Manongs from Hawaii or CA, > > it wasn't any good. Believe it or not. As neither him nor his Instructor > > had ever been to the Philippines, that opinion was based on a second hand > > source. As a Filipino being told something which was known not to be true, > > with so much authority, his statement would be taken negatively. > > Hi, > > I think the reason for th slight arrogant behaviour of the american is, > that he might have learned, that Kali consists out of 12 weapon > categories, Eskrima has only 7 and Arnis only 5 (or 3, I donīt remember > for sure). As far as I know, this is what is taught in the Inosanto > blend. My understanding is that we are taught that there are 12 areas in the FMA and that most systems have less than these 12 and that number of areas should not be confused with merit. Again, this is but how I remember it and I am a notorious knucklehead in these things-- just ask Guro I. :-) > That of course leads very easily to the opinion: 12 is more than 7 or 5, > so the system with 12 categories must be better/superior. There was a thread to this effect about systems with more numbers in their angles of attack than in other systems. Same thing, number of angles should not be confused with matters of merit. > ------------------------------ > Mr. Denny wrote: > > >I cannot think of any of Guro I's FMA training that has been "second > >hand." All of it has been >from high level Filipino masters. > > Well, without taking sides, let's not get into a "my kung-fu is better > than your kung-fu" argument... I apologize if my words came across this way, although even in rereading them now I do not see it. My intention was merely to point out that Guro I had received fine training from Filipino masters here in the US- this in response to comments that I thought underappreciated the quality of the FMA training he has received because it took place in the US. > >And please forgive my lack of tact, but it would seem that despite his > never having been to the > >Philippines, the recent repost by Bill McGrath of something that David > Reyes wrote shows that he >got it right conderning 'kali" when some > living in the Phlippines (would that include you?) did not. > > Again (respectfully to both parties), could we temporarily suspend our > conclusions based on this post for a while...we are still examining the > evidence...it may be (IMHO) premature to draw any conclusions from this > post at this time... Fine by me. Crafty ------------------------------ From: "S. H. Wee" Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:30:06 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Demonstration tricks These are the same popular demonstration "tricks" that frequently performed by the Qi Gong masters here. It involves a little cheating and lots of practices and you do have to have reasonable basic in Kung Fu. Just like the board breakings, it looked amazing to the common people but once you learned how to do it, it's not that special. Our regular Qigong and Taichi Masters here can take blows to their throat and groin without any problems. Even some Silat masters here can do that. According to them it only take lots of practices on how to focus your Ki/Chi. Now what truely amazed me are some of the Qi Gong masters' ability to hang 20 lbs dumb bell on their fully erected penises. And yesterday I saw it in the news that three Taiwanese Qi Gong masters pulling a 50-tonnes fully loaded bus with ropes tied to their penises!! Now, this is the one martial art that my wife will not complain of me spending too much time on. Sincerely, S. h. Wee > From: Greg Goldmakher > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:41:36 -0700 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Demonstration tricks > > Tommy the debunker wrote: > > Other standard tricks in this vein include the guy who lets his students > > kick him full power in the groin Solutions to this problem includes > > standing up during the demo and shouting "Let me be the one doing the > > kicking!". They won't let you. Really. > > On the others, I have nothing to contribute. On this one, I must say > that I have personally been to a class (Japanese Jujitsu) where the > instructor not only allowed, but actually encouraged me to be the > kicker. He then yelled at me for not kicking him hard enough until I > really let fly with a good one. I literally almost lifted him off the > ground with the kick, and he did not appear to mind this at all. His > senior students were also able to do this. He also asked me to punch him > in the throat, which I did, and other neat stuff like that. I was > actually going to start learning these things, but the instructor got a > job in another city (teaching was just a sideline thing for him) and had > to move away. > > So, this one may not always be B.S. ------------------------------ From: Eric Knaus Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:41:15 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Comment on M. Keenan's and Billy Mcgrath's post My thanks to Billy Mcgrath and the favorable commentary on the latest DB tape. Yes, frame of mind is a big factor as I fully intend to cut someone in two with a power shot. Some of the larger fighters require two - sometimes three - solid shots before they stop pressing forward. The quicker one's, however, only need one hit (or feel the breeze of a power shot zinging past their face) to realize that any risk they take had better be well worth it. If I screw up, I deserve to get hit and I will do my best to make you a better fighter by returning the favor. Probably the most important thing Tuhon Leo Gaje gave us in New York (oh so many years ago!) was to plant the seeds of attitude in every swing of the stick. Related Topic - Mik, I'm not so sure about the order you outlined " Accuracy, Flow, Speed, Power" - they're all so intertwined that if you were to partition them as rigidly as you describe, it seems that a certain "essence" is lost. Please espouse. Eric Knaus ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:19:34 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #514 "Who taught these 12 weapons? Do you mean to tell me that you had classes in projectile weapons, and whips, and shields? I really doubt that." I met a guy in the states (at the gathering) who got Guru Dan to do a seminar at his school, some of his students were very interested in the whip, rope and shield techniques. Guru Dan did a section on each at the seminar (I wish I could remember the guys name). "I also happen to know that most of those other weapons are used for hunting and warfare; not weapons taught as an art". Actually I used projectile techniques to arrest some one whilst I was in the army. To cut a long story short I used coins in the face, a defensive technique I learned from a talk with Guru Dan at a seminar. Just to make one point clear, the guy did have a 9mm pistol in his waist band, so I did feel justified. I think learning techniques used for hunting is very valid, because you can hunt humans and also you get an idea of different ranges and concepts, which can cross over in to other areas of your art. "Would you kindly describe for us a drill with the blow gun?" Here's one made up by me on the spot! Go down to your local woods/range set up some targets and give it a try. If you take a picnic you can have a good day out. You could take a friend and hunt each other. Not my cup of tea but there it is. Could the blow gun double up for a stick? Regards Richard (legend in his own lunch time) Killick. ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:49:01 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Head-Hunter of Northern Luzon Hi everybody, in the November issue of the german National Geographice issue, I found a very interesting articel about the Head-Hunter of Northern Luzon, written by Dean C. Worcester, at that time Minister of the Interior fof the Philippines. This article was first published in the National Geographic Magazin, Issue September 1912 !!! This makes it, at least for us, an almost historic document. Described were the war rituals of the Negritos, Kalingas, Ifugaos, Bontoc-Igorots and Tingians. When he described the weapons, ha anmost only reffered to speers, bow and arrows and axes and shields. He mentioned a bolo only once as the tool, the Negritos used to cut the heads off the corps of the enemy. He describes how war was declared, why the different tribes were chopping the heads of the enemies body, how the tribe of the victim treated the corps (the tribe accused him to treat his family bad, because he let the enemy take his head. He was buried with no honors, sometimes far way from the tribe, sometimes under a footpath, so that the members of the tribe could step on him) and how the victorious tribe celebrates the victory with dances and singing all through the night and that the warriors were dancing and singing, describing how they won the head and also demonstrating their skill with their weapons (unfortionately he did not describe it any further.) It is also desctribed, how the head was treated by the different tribes, together with some photos of that time. Ther was no reference to any martial arts, style ar any name mentioned describng the weapon use of these tribes. A very interesting article and well worth reading. I donīt know if you can get these old issues in an library or if they are documented online by he National Geogrohic Institute, but it is worth some efforts. The National Geographic Magazine Issue September/1912 I have only a german version, so scanning and putting it in the net would not be helpful to all english sppeaking members of the list. For the german members, they can buy it right now, it is National Geographic Deutschland, November 2000 To anybody who knows: Are there any styles for the mountain region in Luzon (Bontoc, Banaue) known and how do they compare to other FAM styles? It seemed they used their weapons very consequient and I would be courious, if the techniques of that ares also survived in something like a martial arts style. Best regards from Germany Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de Achtung, Neue Adresse: Knyphausenstr. 2b 44287 Dortmund ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:50:52 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: stick speed and Re: "For Mr. Knuttel" > From: "Michael Koblic" > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:13:52 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: Stick speed > > Reply: With all respect, I doubt that one can generate the same speed/power > by wrist action as by the trunk rotation supported by the appropriate leg > action. Would be worth a try. I on the other hand doubt, that there is no wrist action in a full power strike, even if you use hip rotation. It is a natuaral movement. If you give a beginner a stick and tell him to hit a heavy bag as hard as he can, he will use the wrist as well as the hip and shoulder rotation. I am sure I can definitively generate more speed with that wrist strike and I use the wrist only in the last 5% of the strike. But there is much more mass involved in the strike with body motion. Therfore it would be interesting to measure the result comparing the two strikes. We usually try not to deliver only one hit but multiple strikes, this is why we find it important to be able to have a high hitting frequence. This is done best with little mass involved and the use of the wrist to get the speed. If I would deliver only one strike, I would use hip- and shoulder rotation in combination with the wrist strike. During Sinawali we donīt, because the frequency gets too high if you hit fast. > All other activities relying on generating power/speed with their > implements, be it baseball, golf or tennis all use the body action. In all those examples, only one strike is executed at a time and you have a lot of time to prepare for the next hit. No multiple hitting action involved in tennis, golf or baseball. But I think there is Wrist motion in baseball. If you prepare for the hit, the baseball bat is on the back and the wrist is "open", menaning twisted towards the thumbs. During the stike, just before hitting the ball, the wrist "closes" i.e a wristmovement towards the little finger. Or do you hit without ANY wrist motion at all? > BTW if you try using your wrists to generate golf clubhead speed you will be sadly > disappointed. Perhaps there is someone here who can comment on the baseball > hitting action with more authority than I but my understanding is that the > wrists break very late in the hitting action with little effort. Early wrist > action will slow the bat down. Sure, but you have all the time of the world to accelerate a golf club. For wrist motion the golg club is too long and too heavy at the head. > Reply: There is no doubt that one can hurt the opponent using a wrist flick, > but real damage is done by the full effort (see DBMA Tape 1). Furthermore, > using a heavier stick will make it more difficult to use wrist alone. There sure is a weight limit to that technique. You couldnīt do it with a baseball bat and I already wouldnīt do it with a largo mano stick of more than 75 - 80 centimeters (longer than 32 inch) > From: "jose saguisabal" > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:21:28 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: For Mr. Knuttel > > Mr. Knuttel: > > I must beg to differ with you on two of your statements in the last issue, the first being that Kali, > Eskrima, and Arnis are generic terms for the FMAs in general. I hope that you do not take offense to this, > but surely, you have not seen much of the Philippine arts to make this statement. Fist of all I, am in the FMA since 1978 and have trained with a lot of Grandmasters and Masters. I think you read my mail wrong: I did not say, that Arnis, Kali and Eskrima are the only Filipino martial arts. I am well aware of Silat, Dumog, Harimaw Buno, Yaw-Yan and other arts. All I tried to say was, that when you use any of these 3 terms, it is clear that you donīt speak about chinese, japanese or korean arts but that you refer to Filipino martial arts. > In the FMAs there are styles that look much like Tae Kwon Do to Muay Thai. We have arts that closely > resemble Kung Fu, even Judo! Silat, for example is not only found in Indonesia, we have Silat styles in our > own country...and many of these styles RARELY pick up a stick; and they are VERY Filipino. > To say that all of the arts in the Philippines is something I expect the average non-FMA artist/BB mag > reader to say, not someone who claims expertise in these arts. Again, I ment to say: All Arnis, Kali and Eskrima styles are Filipino Martial Arts and I did not say: all Filipino Martial Arts are Arnis, Kali or Eskrima. > Have you been to the Philippines? I have lived in the Philippines in 1983 and 1985 for 3 months each and went there for the sole purpose of training in Arnis and Eskrima. > The second statement that got me was the apparent "arrogance" of an American FMA artist because his art of > "Kali" teaches 12 weapons. > First of all, I happen to know several JKD-FMA from the Inosanto camp, they've reported only learning the > same weapons folks going to Doce Pares seminars learn. Secondly, all of the instructors he has learned from > have younger generations here, near my area, and with the exception of the Largusa group and one other > person whose name escapes me at this time, they all call their arts "Eskrima". Who taught these 12 weapons? > Do you mean to tell me that you had classes in projectile weapons, and whips, and shields? I really doubt > that. I also happen to know that most of those other weapons are used for hunting and warfare; not weapons > taught as an art. Would you kindly describe for us a drill with the blow gun? I fully agree with your questions above. Just to clarify: I did not make this statement not do I belive in it. I only quoted this statement from a Dan Inosanto seminar. I come from Modern Arnis not from Kali and the way we teach, we have more than these 3 or 5 categories and I am sure other arts have too. As I said in my first e-mail to that topic: these 12 categories may be in the Inosanto/LaCoste style of Kali, but I doubt that they are in all Kali styles. We do agree on that topic. What I ment was, that if you hear this statement from your instructor and it is true to you then, it would obviously make you feel, that your style is superior because it has more categories. That may have lead this particular american to his arrogancy. > The last time I was in Stockton, I was told when Dan Inosanto was making his rounds learning from the > Masters, he already knew how to use the Nunchaku, which he learned from Ed Parker! Okay, so that eliminates > the Tabak Toyok, which I have yet to meet a Filipino who knows them or heard of them... Well, this mean not not really be a contradiction, bacause as far as I know, at least the weapon part of the Kempo that came from Hawaii and I think Ed Parkers Kempo originated from Master Emperado of Hawaii (I am not 100 % sure about this but fairly) was heavily influenced by the Filipinos in Hawaii. I have heared this from different reliable sources and, that the Kempo sticks are 90% FMA from itīs origin and technique. When I was in Manila in 1983, in Ernesto Presasī Dojo in Quiapo, the Nunchakus were a part of the training. Roberto Presas btw., the youngest of the 3 Presas brothers, had an exciting demonstration twirling with a stick in one hand and a nunchaku in the other. But I donīt not mean to say, that the Nunchaku is a standartd weapon in the FMA. Just at that time and that place it was practiced. Bzut then again, there was also a japanese influence in that dojo at that tome, so in maybe came from there. As we know, the FMA are very adaptale! > Okay, let me go before I get blasted... > Jay Please donīt ;-) Best regards from Germany Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 7:37:54 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #515 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.