From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 3 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 521 In this issue: eskrima: body strikes thread eskrima: Re: Blowguns eskrima: re Dizon and Tatang's age eskrima: Dr Gyi seminar at Inosanto Academy eskrima: re Demonstration tricks etc eskrima: Re:Strong Muscle eskrima: Panther in Germany Re: eskrima: re Dizon and Tatang's age eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Raphael Chiu Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:47:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: body strikes thread Concerning the thread on body strikes, I have nothing to comment except that I think there are legitimately people who can do this with their chi (qi, ki) or whatever. However, I also believe that there are more people who use *illusions* or *parlor tricks.* Maybe this sounds ethnically biased, but if they were all parlor tricks, about 1.25+ billion Chinese would be snowed. Incidentally to all this, in the latest issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Vol 9 Num 3, 2000) there is an interview with Curtis Wong (Publisher of "Inside Kung Fu" and a host of other mags). He recounts a similar story on pp. 74-75 involving Ed Parker. It's pretty humorous! Check it out! On a side note, JAMA is trying to have at least one article in each issue dealing with arts from the Phillipines, Indonesia, and India (thank goodness). So, if any one of you have the gift of the pen, it might be worth checking out. With much respect, Raphael Chiu Filipino Kali-Eskrima Academy of Chicago Student of Nathan Defensor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Kel620@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:50:07 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Blowguns I bought an aluminum blowgun from Blowguns Northwest. The steel darts can punch through sheet metal(those round Danish cookie containers) and wood easily. How accurate are/were the traditional blowguns? Does anyone know if they were used in combat or just for hunting? I've read that the Jivaro tribe of South America only used poison(Curare) darts on animals. They never used them when fighting other tribes. Here's the address for Blowguns Northwest: http://www.blowgunsnw.com Kelvin ------------------------------ From: John Chow Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:04:23 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Dizon and Tatang's age >> How old was Dizon in comparison to Tatang Ilustrisimo? >Dizon was about 8 years older than Tatang. This calculation is probably based on the presumption that Tatang was born in around 1906. I think 1900 - 1902 is more probable, from what I know. Also, Dizon was presumed to be born around 1997 -1998. Again, there is no exact or definite proof also. In fact, there is also no common concensus as to when Dizon died either. Some say 1970s in Philippines. Some say 1980s in USA (in which case I have wondered why Angel Cabales did not run up to meet his old master since they we suposed to be very closed when they were in Manila. Another puzzle). As for the question whether Angel Cabales knows Floro Villabrialle, I heard from some Serrada people that this is either no, or not well, as the time period is either not matching. From what I know from Manila, the 4 older gentlemen knew each other well and mixed in 'social circles', but Angel was a student and so did not mix with the elder ones who were in their 30s at that time. Angel was around 16 years old at that time, so I heard. Angel Cabales, however, knew Tatang and had been to see Tatang. Now, Anybody has a contradictory account? John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:58:13 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Dr Gyi seminar at Inosanto Academy A Howl etc: A reminder-- Dr. Gyi will be at the Inosanto Academy Friday, Saturday and Sunday- (Sunday morning will be Pdkr Paul De Thouars). 310-348-9944 Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: John Chow Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:43:55 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Demonstration tricks etc Ven. Dr. An Tzu wrote:- >The first is an urban legend (you have not personally seen it)...the second >one, if you look at the photos carefully, you will see they are not using >their penises at all. More gimmicks, specifically a special "rigging"..... You are half (and only half!) right, Venerable An Tzu. In our standard practice, the weights are hung at the base of the penis, the nuts end. Not at the tip (glans penis). Maybe other groups are more gifted???? I don't know. >>. Demonstration skills are not >>mere trickery like stage conjuring. > >Yes, they most certainly are... I respectfully disagree, Venerable An Tzu. You are partially right again. This is a wide sweeping statement that implies demonstration tricks 'most certainly are' mere trickery. Mere trickery. I submit, again, that a certain amount of skill and technique is still required. eg. breaking boards/bricks/stones may be almost an art by itself, and there is a way to break the boards/brick/stones, but you still need some power and skill. Of course I do not know how a stage conjurer may do it - that is well trained and well practiced trickery maybe use some chemicals to soften the material and cut the material up prior and conceal the cracks. But there are those who do it, and use techniques to do it. Please note I said 'mere trickery'. All arts involve tricks. Your Arnis involves tricks. But you did it. You did not fake a show when you enetred a tournament. However high or low the merits of that tournament, you did it with your tricks and skills. I am sure most of the Arnis tournament fight were not rigged show biz????? >I've yet to meet a Chi Kung "master" who wasn't a fraud when it comes >to tricks. Venerable An Tzu, I have to disagree again, as above. I think we read too much of those 'Debunking Pychics' stories. I have met James Randy myself and have made a proposal to him in around 1979/1980 when he visited Monash University, but he was very evasive. He subsequently was reported as having not being able to really explain something (yet) when he passed thru South East Asia years later - something related to what I wanted to propose to him. His main argument is that if he can duplicate the act with conjuring tricks, then you are a fraud. And I have seen his 'duplications' - so very very very poor imitations. He will not listen to any counter arguments that you do it straight, and he does it by tricks, and there is a world of difference, and the best control experiment is for both parties to use the SAME utensils to do it. eg. if someone claims he can not be cut with a knife: let the knife be bought by an independent party, eg. Premier of the state government, kept locked up in the Parliamentary safe and witnessed as such, and on the appointed day, opened and witnessed brought/escorted tothe testing place where both parties are dressed only in their under wear (to prevent conjuring tricks - have to be fair), and both parties in the room taht is totally bare, and has glass windows as observation decks, and both parties cut themselves and each other. That is a proper control test. What the Amazing James Randy will only agree to is he does it in his own way, fully clothed, with his own knife, with his tricks, like in a magic show, and if he can do it, he has proven you are are fraud. How can it be a true test if the participants are allowed to supply their own knives? No, to his Excellent Stubborness, merely being able to use his own special kife and tricks to duplicate is the definite proof that you are a fraud. Well, I gave up. I truly gave up, and I never wanted to ever see that creature again, not ever in my life. And I do not wish to engage in any proofs any more to anybody - have better things to do. >>On those hard pounding penises: It is a standard training regiment for >>Taoist Sexual Yoga. > >It is not standard training in traditional tantric practice. In fact, it's >the opposite of the practice. Venerable An Tzu. Again, I respectfully disagree, and totally disagree. There is the Solitary Practices and the Dual Practices in Taoist Yoga. My main sect of Taoist practice is deadly and vehemently against sexual practices. The master condemns such practices as nonsense. However, I also followed the 'other side'. You can not deny that they exist! On the Tantric side. There is both Tibetan and Indian Tantra. It is the same story. There are Tantric sects that indulge, and there are others who do not, and some others who condemn sexual practices. Even with the same sect, there are different practitioners, of different mentalities. Hey! We are a mixed bunch, just like many other groups, arts, and affliations. This is the real world, my friend. Venerable An Tzu, since you mentioned Tantra, okay............. In so called the Tibetan Tantric tradition, you must understand that it is actually an extension of the more generic Mahayana tradition. Thus, many practices in the so called Tantric traditions are actually regional/localised Mahayana traditions. eg. The practices of Avalokitesvara, Manjushri, Medicine Buddha, Sakyamuni Buddha etc etc etc and all those generic teachings on refuge, merit, wisdom, ethics, bodhicitta etc etc are actually Mahayana practices, not Tantric practices. The Mahayana and Hinayana traditions contain many ethical precepts that disallow, rather 'condemn' sexual practices because they are vices and attachments etc etc. In this small scope of evaluation, you are right. But again, only partially, and I might adde, very partially only. Because, the Tantric tradition has its own sets of Tantric scriptures that are in addition to the Mahayana scriptures. These (the Kangyur and Tangyur) depict and describe sometimes vivid sexual imagery. Even the practices of deities is different. In Tibetan Buddhism, many profound scholars mistake the initiation of the Mahayana deities (Avalokitesvara, Manjushri, Medicine Buddha, Sakyamuni Buddha)as initiation. No! That is only transmission of practice! There are many levels of transmission, and these are only 'Gey Lang'. There can not be a Tantric initiation (Wang Kur) because a Tantric initiation can only be done for Tantric deities like Hevajra, Kalachakra, Cakrasamvara, etc. Logical? Further to confuse you, Venerable An Tzu, is that there are 4 classes of Tantra according to the classification of the New Schools (Sarma), and 6 class of Tantra according to the Old School (Nying Ma). According to the classificatiob as set out in the New Schools, the lower 3 classes do not contain sexual practices at all. Sexual practices are a very very high practice and one is easily mislead. And there are many attendant dangers - accidents, punishment, physical disorders, emotional disorders, and insanity etc. Only the highest practitioners are taught this aspect. Thus of 100,000 Tantric practitioners, only a handful practise sexual Tantra. Most know about it. But they have no qualification to practice, and thus keep off. No authorisation by the guru. I also wish to point out the difference between devotee of the Tantric tradition and a true practising yogi of the Tantric tradition. It is like comparing a nominal Christion who goes to Churh on Easter, X'mas and Thanks Giving Day, and a Roman Catholic priest: 2 very different levels of practice, but that is still standard Roman Catholism. Please note that monk practitioners are forbidden by monastic vows to practise such things, thus, if you are a monk, you can not practise it. The majority of the robed practitioners are monks, especially from the dominant Gelug and Sakya sects, thus some may mistake that Tibetan Tantra is against sexual practices. Venerable An Tzu, you may find many available sources on such practices already printed in English, some from the highest Tibetan Tantric masters. eg. His Holiness Dalai Lama himself, although a strict vegetarian monk, has, in his basic introductory book 'Tantra in Tibet' (I have 2 copies of that!) explicitly mentioned Tantric sexual practices as belonging to the Highest Yoga Tantra (ie. the Annutara Yoga Tantra). Do you wish to debate the Dalai Lama on this issue? I can perhaps line up even better debaters from the Nyingma sect which most sexual Tantrikas come from. I strong disagree that sexual practices are 'the opposite of the practice' (your quote). By the way, what do you mean by standard practice? Topics in the curriculum of the school? If that is so, sexual practices is standard practice - only that few are qualified to practise it. If standard means ordinary and widely practise by all of the faith, that should be termed - basic or elementary practice. Just like in Arnis, the 12 strikes, footwork, basic blocks, basic disarms are basic and elementary practices. Anything more advanced is Advanced Practices. Just because a practice is advanced does not mean that it is not standard practice of the style. In Tibet, some of the very highest masters, from old times to modern times, are married lamas who practices such things. Even the very strict celibate and high monk lamas have to prostrate to and take refuge in such masters. Even the current Dalai Lama learns from married lamas such as the late Dilgo Khyentse, Urgen Tulku, etc...... much to the annoyance of certain closed minded monks. It is okay to have made such statements in a martial arts forum. Please do not make such proclaimation in Tantric circles. You might be misunderstand as condemning very highly respected masters ----> oppps! By the way, since we have similar backgrounds, what sect do you come from, and who is your master? And who was your ordination master and platform masters? I gather from your name that you could from the Chinese or Vietnamese Mahayana tradition. May I respectfully ask for your pre-ordination name please, venerable sir? John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 00:51:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re:Strong Muscle At 03:48 PM 11/2/2000, you wrote: >The strongest muscle in the human body is the uterus. Unfortunately, its >self-defense applications are, well, limited :-) Actually, it isn't....but it's probably the most labile, leading some to think its ability to stretch makes it so. (By the way, it makes the most awful "squishing" sound when it is cut into with surgical scissors. Fortunately the woman has built-in loss of pain sense in that area at that time and never knows when the episiotomy is performed. I have bet several women that I'd give them $500 if they could say when it was done....haven't had to pay yet. Bringing it back to topic, the adrenalin rush that accompanies many fights leads to the same kind of anaesthesia is certain body areas, so they should be kept away from because the striking won't be terribly effective. b ------------------------------ From: Kautz.Kraft@t-online.de (Michael Kautz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:55:41 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Panther in Germany Hi , would anyone tell me, where i can get the famous Stickman products like the "Panther II" in Germany or Central Europe? How can i get this things? Thanks a lot Michael Kautz Karlsruhe, Southwest Germany ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 6:46:14 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: re Dizon and Tatang's age > This calculation is probably based on the presumption that Tatang was > born in around 1906. I think 1900 - 1902 is more probable, from what I > know. We have him being born in 1904. > Also, Dizon was presumed to be born around 1997 -1998. Again, there is > no exact or definite proof also. In fact, there is also no common > concensus as to when Dizon died either. Some say 1970s in > Philippines. Some say 1980s in USA (in which case I have wondered why > Angel Cabales did not run up to meet his old master since they we > suposed to be very closed when they were in Manila. Another puzzle). We have Dizon as being born in 1896 and dying in 1984, the same year that Angel died. By then I'm not sure that Angel would have had the health or the $$, and perhaps not even the knowledge of Dizon being around, to have gone to meet him. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 6:53:30 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.