From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #522 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 3 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 522 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Dr. Arnold Kegel and the Muscles He Defined eskrima: Throat/groin hits eskrima: PCAT STICK TOURNEY in L.A. eskrima: Villabrille eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 eskrima: Dizon, Canetes, challenges eskrima: we're fighting for the right to boo the Dodgers eskrima: Re: Dizon, Cabales, Floro eskrima: Re: Fraudulent Practices eskrima: krislitos? eskrima: Re: Floro and Dizon eskrima: Re: Debate the Dalai Lama?? eskrima: btw the kilt was invented by an Englishman... Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 Re: eskrima: Dizon, Canetes, challenges Re: eskrima: krislitos? Re: eskrima: Re: Dizon, Cabales, Floro eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Branwen Books Inc." Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:40:58 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: Dr. Arnold Kegel and the Muscles He Defined >From: Todd Ellner >Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 08:50:15 -0800 >Subject: eskrima: Re: Dr. Arnold Kegel and the Muscles He Defined >The strongest muscle in the human body is the uterus. Unfortunately, its >self-defense applications are, well, limited :-) "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" ;) Actually, when training I focus on the center/chi/whathaveyou, which in my case is about the region of my lower body where the uterus is located. That's where I "feel" it. Power is generated from the hips (correct me if I'm wrong). Focussing on that area makes me more aware of my hip motion, and I find I have more power. so it does eventually have a self-defense app. :) jocelyne ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:57:11 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Throat/groin hits >>As I have said, I have personally pounded one guy in the throat and groin at full power, and saw the blows have no effect whatsoever. He could also resist certain locks that I have never seen anyone else stand up to (the #3 lock in the Defensor Method lock flow, for example). I was there. It was not illusion. I hit him as hard as I could. He took it.<< Yes but the great RP also lost the UFC and infact performed very poorly. While these are amazing feats that I cannot do, the whole process of real-time real-contact totally changes the game. His chi-gung/dim mak whatever did not help him. I am no more impressed by taking a hit to the groin than some petit woman coming into my office and telling me to drill her cavity with no anesthesia. It happens all the time. It simple means you can hit that guy in the groin when he is prepared. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: ARNISTE@aol.com Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:52:05 EST Subject: eskrima: PCAT STICK TOURNEY in L.A. Meowmix to all, PCAT STICK FIGHT will be tomorrow at 10am.There will be judges/referee clinic for those coming for that day at 9am.Late registration at8am and weigh in follows. So see you all later , Nelson"PinoyKowboy"Trinidad / Arniste@aol.com CATSociety ------------------------------ From: "Mark Harrell" Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:34:01 GMT Subject: eskrima: Villabrille From: John Chow Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:04:23 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Dizon and Tatang's age >>How old was Dizon in comparison to Tatang Ilustrisimo? >Dizon was about 8 years older than Tatang. This calculation is probably based on the presumption that Tatang was born in around 1906. I think 1900 - 1902 is more probable, from what I know. Also, Dizon was presumed to be born around 1997 -1998. Again, there is no exact or definite proof also. In fact, there is also no common concensus as to when Dizon died either. Some say 1970s in Philippines. Some say 1980s in USA (in which case I have wondered why Angel Cabales did not run up to meet his old master since they we suposed to be very closed when they were in Manila. Another puzzle). As for the question whether Angel Cabales knows Floro Villabrialle, I heard from some Serrada people that this is either no, or not well, as the time period is either not matching. From what I know from Manila, the 4 older gentlemen knew each other well and mixed in 'social circles', but Angel was a student and so did not mix with the elder ones who were in their 30s at that time. Angel was around 16 years old at that time, so I heard. Angel Cabales, however, knew Tatang and had been to see Tatang. Now, Anybody has a contradictory account? John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima >I asked Angel Cabales in 1990 if he ever met Mr. Villabrille and he said >that "No, he did not". > >Guro Mark Harrell >Villabrille Kali _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:40:29 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 In a message dated 11/3/00 6:33:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << We have Dizon as being born in 1896 and dying in 1984, the same year that Angel died. >> Uh, you sure Ray? Not to dispute you, but I believe that Angel Cabales died in 1991. I understand that Dizon died in or very close to 1984, though. As for Angel being a contemporary of Villabrille, they may have know each other, but Angel was just a youngster then, and thus probably didn't hang with the elders much. I am sure he was acquainted with Villibrille, though, since he was very close to Villabrille's buddy, Dizon. Kim Satterfield ------------------------------ From: "IESA" Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:42:48 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Dizon, Canetes, challenges Dear Members, I asked Master Uddin about the posts on Dizon, Villabrille, the Canetes. He has a taped conversation with the late GM Illustrisimo who said that Dizon didn't learn from the Blind Princess and that Villabrille learned from the Blind Princess. Villabrille loved to work with Dizon, since Dizon specialized in Espada y Daga. Tatang Illustrisimo was adept at all ranges and all weapons so he had no specialty. Tatang Mena was also a contemporary who specialized in Espada y Daga. Floro trained with these men and was their contemporary. The only challenge where Dizon lost was against the Muslim prince, who hit Dizon on his head. As for the challenge between the Canetes and Dizon, there was no record of that. The only open challenge to this day is between Tatang Mena and Canetes, which was witnessed by GM Lazola (sp?) and GM Undo Caburnay. I don't recall exactly which Canete was challenged. Peace, Bob IESA +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The coolest site for free home pages, email, chat, e-cards, movie info.. | | http://www.goplay.com - it's time to Go Play! | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:06:50 +0000 Subject: eskrima: we're fighting for the right to boo the Dodgers From: James D Stacy: (any relation to the actor?) >I have been reading only for a short time but feel like I want to through in my two cents into the fray. >First: Some people have been saying some things about Guro I. not ever going to the Fillipines and >saying that that disqualifies him from truely knowing the FMA. As I asked Mr. Denny, I was wondering why so many posts seem to diss Guro I. Most of the post the last round questioned his theories on FMA history, not his skills or abilities... >Third: When I started to subscribe to this digest I was hopeing that we were going to discuss the >best training methods we have not bicker about things that you will never be able to resolve (ie.. >Kali FMA name or not). Perhaps it reads like bickering, perhaps not...to others it is discussing/dialoguing about/exchanging info about just another aspect (albeit less important) of the FMAs, its history...I agree that we may never be able to resolve this issue, but does that mean that it shouldn't be discussed at all? Recent posts on the different exercises for human genitalia [along with Roaring Girl's intention to lift weights ; ) ] may make some posters wince and/or pucker, but so long as GPB Terry allows it, any topic is fair game... Feel free to scroll up (and bypass) if any post is beneath you... yours in the interest of free speech (free food and free sex) tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Dizon, Cabales, Floro >>We have Dizon as being born in 1896 and dying in 1984, the same year >>that Angel died. >>By then I'm not sure that Angel would have had the health or the $$, >>and perhaps not even the knowledge of Dizon being around, to have >>gone to meet him. ?? I'm still curious here. Alot of it sounds like no one knows for sure. By that I mean, it could or might not be true with some of the stuff. Are there no "styles" or "systems" left in Dizon's legacy besides Angel? And if there are others that learned from Dizon, how are their ways of fighting in comparison to Angel's? Did Dizon fight like Angel or is serrada just his own interpretation. I find this interesting. BTW, Tatang and Floro were related. And Dizon, as well? ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:17:12 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Fraudulent Practices At 06:53 AM 11/3/2000, you wrote: >. May I respectfully ask for >your pre-ordination name please, venerable sir? > > >John Chow My name is on all of my e-mail. Most of what you say is, although passionate, not correct. But you also say you don't want to discuss such things any further. Let me just say your description of a standardized test is one that I fully agree with.....except that when I expose these characters they never want me to use their tools (for obvious reasons). Also, Taoist Yoga is, to me, an oxymoron. They make lots of claims and have in some cases devolved into sects of the dangerous type. But I've yet to see any of them seriously demonstrate all they claim. One other thing: left-handed practice is not limited either to Buddhism or specifically Mahayana. Good wishes to you. b ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:34:32 +0000 Subject: eskrima: krislitos? Grand Pooh Bah Terry wrote: > from his background. Remember, most bolos and even many big krisses are no > more than 18-21" long..... Then he is obviously thinking of the kris blade only. Most battle kris are 25"-27" long. Perhaps he is referring mainly to the bolo, which is long at over 15" (handle included)...and many krises are available a lengths of only 13"-21" (these are the smaller, lighter ones)... tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:35:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Floro and Dizon >>Dan Inosanto insist in person on several occasions that Dizon was >>Villabrille's student, that Dizon lost a match to a Moro prince, and >>talked Villabrille into a match with the prince, which Villabrille >>supposedly won, but with some painful injuries. I was also under the impression, of course through hear-say, that Floro told this to Dan. Is this true? And why do some say it is not? Did Angel ever talk about this? Well, this will probably be my last question on this matter, I just thought it was interesting, if anyone wants, they can e-mail me personally with info as well. Thanks Ray and everyone else. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:32:43 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Debate the Dalai Lama?? At 06:53 AM 11/3/2000, you wrote: >Do you wish to debate the Dalai Lama on this issue? Just to clarify, I was the first person to invite the Dalai Lama to visit Los Angeles. We spent time together and discussed all form of sexual practices and history. After that first low-budget tour, he got picked up by the "money" people in grey flannel suits and now I can't get near him. The same sad situation has happened with my Dharma brother Thich Nhat Hanh......one of my ordinations is in Vietnamese lineage and my V. religious name is Thich An Tri. We had the same master......but now he is insulated from the real world just as HH is. Sad. Sad. b ------------------------------ From: tenrec Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:59:06 +0000 Subject: eskrima: btw the kilt was invented by an Englishman... From: "Jonathan Broster" : >2 - Last night I checked out Guro Inosanto's book just to confirm my belief that the people he >cites as his main influences in FMA mostly use(d) the terms arnis and eskrima. The only ones to >use exclusively the term kali are Ben Largusa & Floro Villabrille. Well there you go... >This then beggars the question, why if his teachers used arnis/escrima (Angel abales, Leo Giron, >Ellustrissimo) does DI use Kali? >I have always assumed that as he is active in the promotion of Filipino culture as well as FMA he >chose the term that was clearly not Western in origin. We are not sure it is NOT western in origin, it may be based on the Spanish word "caliz..." >Surely rather than bicker about trivial issues like terminology we should be celebrating our shared >interest. We are NOT bickering...uh...hmmm (well holy s#!t...it DOES sound like bickering.... : o ) >3 - The talk about the various languages in the Philipines reminds me of a conversation >When I asked what languae they had just been using he replied: "Oh that was >English!" Talk about "illusionists"... Mabuhay ka rin tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:33:17 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #521 > << We have Dizon as being born in 1896 and dying in 1984, the same year that > Angel died. >> > > Uh, you sure Ray? Not to dispute you, but I believe that Angel Cabales died > in 1991. My mistake. You are correct. BTW, all these dates are in the FMA FAQ. Of course, that does not make them 100% correct... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:37:33 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Dizon, Canetes, challenges > As for the challenge between the Canetes and Dizon, there was no > record of that. There is in Cebu. :) > The only open challenge to > this day is between Tatang Mena and Canetes, which was witnessed by GM > Lazola (sp?) and GM Undo Caburnay. I don't recall exactly which > Canete was challenged. It wasn't so much a challenge, it was the first Grandmasters championship tourny. Cacoy asked who was the toughest of his opponents in the match. It was replied that Jose Mena was probably the toughest. So Cacoy asked for that to be his first match/opponent. Cacoy won. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:45:14 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: krislitos? > (handle included)...and many krises are available a lengths of only > 13"-21" (these are the smaller, lighter ones)... Right. Like the ones from Java and Bali. I own several. But these are not kris that you would pick to carry for self-defense. They are fairly 'light' in their construction. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:53:51 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Dizon, Cabales, Floro > Angel? And if there are others that learned from Dizon, how are their > ways of fighting in comparison to Angel's? Did Dizon fight like Angel > or is serrada just his own interpretation. I find this interesting. Supposedly Serrada is nothing much like Dizon's style. Serrada was the style that Angel developed on his own, with the assistance of his earliest students. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:03:33 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #522 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.