From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #525 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 5 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 525 In this issue: eskrima: Re: them and us...good topic eskrima: (No Subject) Re: eskrima: ESKRIMA eskrima: Re: Derobio eskrima: Derobio eskrima: Old Term? FMA yesterday-today? Re: eskrima: Old Term? FMA yesterday-today? eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #524 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chad Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:05:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: them and us...good topic > >Alrighty then...He was Filipino...he was a stickfighter...that made > him > >a Filipino STICKFIGHTER, which I suspect is more important than a > >FILIPINO stickfighter. I also suspect that the guy that places more > >emphasis on the 'STICKFIGHTER' part of the phrase than the > "FILIPINO" > >part would be a better "stickfighter". Of course, the guy with the > >emphasis on the "FILIPINO/CHINESE/HAWAIIAN/Whatever" will be the > better > >culturally artistic one. > > The point WAS he claimed he to be a "champion OF the Philippines" not > a > "champion FROM > the Philippines". His claim would mean he had fought and won againt > many of > the best fighters IN the Philippines and their are no records of this > taking > place. He told guro Dan that there was a picture of his in the Cebu > Municipal library (next to Lapu Lapu) and on asking I was told there > never > was one (I looked for myself to check). Champion IN the Philippines, then? My misunderstanding on words, sorry. Tuhon McGrath, this is exactly why I train. This is exactly what I tell the students that used to come into the class and I noticed would lose interest and what not. People have two choices, and that is 1)to be a victim, or 2)to not be a victim, and I choose number 1, that is why I train. For me, I look at it similar to how you described, the 'them' being the predators, vultures, whatever. The 'death' matches with other MA are just for fun. ;) ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:23:25 -0800 Subject: eskrima: (No Subject) David Eke wrote: "The point WAS he claimed he to be a "champion OF the Philippines" not a "champion FROM the Philippines". His claim would mean he had fought and won againt many of the best fighters IN the Philippines and their are no records of this taking place. He told guro Dan that there was a picture of his in the Cebu Municipal library (next to Lapu Lapu) and on asking I was told there never was one (I looked for myself to check)." Keep in mind that the ways of many of the manong is to exaggerate and embellish a little (true of lots of old men, regardless of the ethnicity). Think about it, ALL of them are former champions, ALL of them won numerous "death matches", ALL of them are the highest ranking of the Masters. It doesn't surprise me that you found evidence contrary to their story. "People don't appear to be too interested in LISTENING but protecting and defending their own postion and/or style." AMEN!!! Ever wonder why Filipinos take it to heart when they see something that isn't so about the arts they know so much about? Because instead of arguing with them and offering lame, offensive, and arrogant excuses such as "there are 1,000 dialects" (We know!) and "Well, in this 300 year-old text written by a European, it says.." Did it ever occur that some of the Filipinos who use "Kali" are "going with the flow"? It's already been proven that Villabrille and Illustrisimo called their styles "eskrima" and Gaje and Lema's styles were known as "arnis" before the change, so why offer them as proof of its use, when you have read over and over what they truth is? ">Honest question here...if so many masters in the PI are unhappy with >where the FMA is going today or believe that information is inaccurate, >then why don't they get this message out via the internet or through >this digest? I would be interested in hearing what they have to say. >" They do, it's just that everyone wants to argue and defend their position when they do. And ask yourself, have you ever considered learning from someone that does not teach by seminars or is not in the magazines? I've seen some type of eskrima or arnis class in almost every city I've been to, but it seems that most people woudl rather do a seminar than study full time. I mean, you'd travel for College, but not the martial arts? Only the serious ones do. The Filipino masters see this lack of seriousness as disinterest, or laziness...either way, they choose not to pursue others, as they are the ones who have what everyone wants. Many of the Filipinos who enter the international scene end up going along with what is being perpetrated already, because it's the only way to get noticed. That is why "Dumug" is so popular, along with drills. I've spoken to a man who knew Edgar Sulite before he came to the U.S. He said that Mr. Sulite was technique- and strategy- oriented prior to coming over. But he realized that what sells here are prearranged drills, not sparring. Filipinos who come here do so to feed their families. If you get enough people ignoring you because you offer only three or four Sinawali drills and have never heard of the arts of "kinomutai" (whatever the hell that is) or "hubad lubad", you learn real fast how to do it and teach it. ">>>As to the claim that you have to have been to the Philippines to be >>>legitimate in the FMA. Does that mean that you have to have been to >>>Scandinavia to call yourself a skier? Of course not. But not everyone claims to be investigating the FMAs or has devoted his life to learning and teaching. By the way, Muslims ARE required to visit the Holy Lands at least once in their lifetime. Anyway, name an Anthropologist who have never travelled out the country to do research, or a French Professor who has never been to a French-speaking country. If one was really interested in uncovering the mysteries of the FMAs, a trip to the Philippines is a logical move, not a trip to Stockton or Hawaii. "Isn't it a little funny that Dizon and Villabrille don't use names when they describe people instead using descriptors like "The blind Princess","The Muslim Prince" and "The old man of Cebu". Makes it fairly imposible to check who they are actually talking about, doesn't it??" Isn't it funny that none of the Masters from that region have ever mentioned those people? "As if the gang of home invaders whose game plan is to duck tape you to a chair while they gang rape your wife before slitting both your throats gives a rat's ass who your teacher was or who he learned from or what the "correct" name for your art really is." True, but if we are talking about humility or integrity, when someone corrects or questions a statment/story, don't get upset. The effectiveness of the art is most important, but lineage and integrity of the information passed on is a close second. "I would suggest to you that if your current definition of "them" includes any other law abiding person (including law abiding martial artists of another style) then you really haven't met the real "them" and are wasting time and energy guarding against an attack from the wrong direction." I disagree, when someone is giving out questionable information, and you have reason to believe they KNOW the information is questionable, they are no longer on the same side you are; this analogy is mere rhetoric. You mean to tell me that no one here knows that the Kali of today is Arnis renamed? Of course Arnis may be Kali renamed, but that is like calling an assault rifle a "musket". Admit it--Kali and ARNIS are THE SAME THING!!! "Combination of the words "Kamut" and "Lihod"-- using the first two letters of each to create "Kali" meaning "the study of motion" "Kamut" means "scratch". Should know that by now...See what I mean? "this would add weight to the fact that Tatang Illustrisimo (or his students depending on who is doing the telling) used the term too. Ben Largusa (and Greg Lontayo and Mel Lopez) of the Villabraille tribe. Ted Tabosa (used Kali and Eskrima). Leo Gaje. Bo and Chris Sayoc. Most of his teachers used the term eskrima, and some used arnis. (I would also offer the idea that as a matter of courtesy perhaps sometimes choose the term depending upon with whom they were speaking.)" See comments above. Btw, the Sayocs only recently began using the term Kali. I believe if you look in BB mag's from the 80s, you will see that they call their art "Arnis". "If I understand correctly, the point is that his sources were from many generations ago and that terminology was/is different than current terminology is to be expected." Explanation is not good enough. Filipinos who are native speakers would know the difference, and they are the ones you have to contend with when it comes to terminology. Guro Dan is not a native speaker. Also, keep in mind that there are just as many old people in this age group in the Philippines for reference. My point is, don't argue; there are people here who know better! To do so is a slap in the face and an insult to those who DO know! This is the arrogance we are speaking about! "(Rhetorical Question on my part: unless someone wishes to infer that those who emigrated from the Philippines to the US were on the whole of lesser skill and understanding in the Art, then of what significance the fact that his training occurred in the US?)" (Rhetorical Answer): While things evolved and improved in the Philippines, those who did not keep in touch lost out. Especially whe one speaks of purity (vs blending). I remember hearing once that no one fights full contact with bare sticks in the Philippines. This is not true, and never was. I read this in an article about the FMA by Inosanto or Vunak or someone in that camp. The Masters who came here did not train together, and lost the benefits of that experience, while many who stayed behind did. Plus, how much experience can a person whose training stopped in his teens or early 20s have? I believe the Masters from Guro I's time came here at a young age. Now, this is not to say that the Masters in the PI are any better; I just wanted to point out the advantages they may have had. "13) In America, the barriers between different Filipino groups have broken down more than in the Philippines. (If I understand correctly, he is saying here that this enabled him to be exposed to an unusually wide array of masters)" How would he know if he had never been there? On the contrary, organizations like PIGGSA, NARAPHIL, and the PKA have brought many differnt styles together. In my opinion the fighting style used by the Canetes' WEKAF have revolutionized stickfighting, and this would not have happened if there were a barrier like Guro I pointed out. By the way, ask followers of the LAMECO group if Sulite's training was hindered by any "barriers". Okay, I think that's everything. You know I've been lurking with many of the Forums, and all this activity is starting to excite me! Jay P.S. No offense to anyone, I've become sort of a "tell-it-like-I-see-it" person since I started training. Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: Gints Klimanis Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:41:50 -0800 Subject: Re: eskrima: ESKRIMA eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: Ray Terry > Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 7:38:48 PST > Subject: eskrima: ESKRIMA > > Eventually however, despite the resistance of Lapulapu and his men, the > Spaniards returned in ever-increasing numbers years later until they finally > prevailed. The Philippines remained under Spanish domination for almost four > hundred years. During this time, the Spaniards also left their mark upon the > development of Philippine martial arts. Has anyone ever read about troop estimates for the first few battles, in particular the first Lapulapu victory? ------------------------------ From: "Gary 808" Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:35:00 -1000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Derobio >From: Ray Terry >Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:23:24 PST >Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Derobioa in HI > >> >>You asked about where in HI the Derobio folks were... Waimanalo, >> HI. >> >> So Ray, there are two groups here, I know there is one in Honolulu as >> well. Any more contact info on Waimanalo guys? Thanks. > >I think that is Ron England's group. ?? No sure if there is a Waimanalo group. But Ron was teaching the Honolulu classes. Well at least the last time I saw them at Old Stadium Park. There used to be a class in the Leeward side if I'm not mistaken. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 16:36:10 PST Subject: eskrima: Derobio Chad, Here is Ron England's email... WorldwideAQ@cs.com Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:34:59 EST Subject: eskrima: Old Term? FMA yesterday-today? Marc, Very interesting story.. I admired all of this old Master that choose to passes the arts to the younger generation. I know the facts that this numerous great masters whom reached USA for the better or worse are proud FILIPINO. The only things I would like to share is no matter how old this people are, there version of FMA History are remain glossy, or un-clear. I would never said that my FMA are accurate 100% but atleast I try to searched the truth and find records to supports the version of my history. If we are going to talk about who are oldest among this masters? All of them is not old enought to clear the glossy history of our past. Well I can say my Great Great Granfather Elias "Tata" Baet, was born on 1830, He became the head of the Moro-moro Groups of Paete on 1870. He is Member of Doce Pares of Laguna third Generation 1855. He is one of founding member of Siete Colores Arnis on 1870, First Katipunan. He died on 1894 they believed caused of sickness. My Great Granfather Maestro Lino "Bisaya" Baet was born on 1870 he a thir son of Elias Baet. He is a member of Moro-moro Goups of Paete and Doce Pares, Siete Colores(some call this group as Siete Pares) on 1885. He was sent to Visaya, particularly in Cebu on 1892, to play in Moro-moro later help spread the revolution plan by the Katipuneros in Luzon. This the reason why they name him "Bisaya" Mastro Lino are know Maestro of New Katipunan, headed by Macario Sakay, he serves under the Lucio de Vega. He was found guilty of suversion, Anti-American hanged to death by the American together with Macario Sakay and Lucio de Vega on Sept, 1907. My Grandfather Maestro Jose "Uti" Baet was born on March 1901, he is the second child of three. He became a member of Doce Pares 5th generation on 1922, after his 21st birthday. This time the Siete Colores(Siete Pares Arnis) already desolves. He is founding Member of Paete Arnis Club 1920. (most member are Siete Colores background). He is the first Master who took the First Arnis Championship on 1925 in Lumban, Laguna(records of Lumban Arnis Groups). He is the first Non-Aetas won the "Lumad Tourney" a Champion (Filipino Native Wrestling). He survived in Seven Death matches, depending his land from those people whom wanted to take them away from him. His last death matched put him in seven years of bed rest almost lost his life. He was cut severely on hi right knee.. During Japanese time he serves in Guerilla Movement called HUKBALAHAP, he counted in total 176 Japanese, and 26 American to what he can remember. He recorded his victim on his walking cane, he mark it with bolo each time he killed Japanese, the mark serves as grip to the handle of the cane. He died on 1970, doctor said liver deseased, He is my first mentor but I couldnt remember a thing to what he taught me. My Father Granmster Felipe "Garimot" Baet was born on 1930. He has four brother and three sisters. He became a Champion in "Harimaw Lumad" tourney(Filipino Native Wrestling) inside Mangyans Tribes in Mindoro Island on 1949. He also became known undefeated in Stickfighting Tourney to the area in the same year. He became "Hari ng Pitong Kabundukan" (King of the seven Mountain) on 1960's and 70's made him the youngest Grandmaster of the Arnis-Estokada and Eskrima from Paete, Laguna. He serves in HUKBALAHAP from 1942-45 as Informer "Messenger". He serve two term President of Paete Arnis Club. He taches Arnis Techniques to the Baranggay Police in Paete, Laguna. Teaches hundreds of student from different parts of Laguna. He won to a Boxing matched on 1972 to the Lagunas Best boxer aTen rounder "Kids Mamouri" of Lumban, Laguna. He won a matched against Felix Rubio, a fourth Degree Blackbelt "Shorin ryu Karate" under Roberto Gonzales a pioner Karate Action hero in Philippines Cinema on the the 60's 70's. More and more. My Brother Daniel "Garimot" Baet was undefeated Stickfighter in Laguna from 1974 to 1985. I was never lost a fight from 1978-1985 from Laguna. My points is in along history of Arnis I never heard anything from the old Master about the words Kali, refer as a Filipino arts. Anyway I am not saying this arts not exist. Like I mentioned before it is maybe Visayans. But some Visayan claimed also never heard of it. So I came to the points that the history of "Kali' is not solid. As a Moro-moro player, this is the version we got from the old instructor that teach us. During the peak of Moro-moro on 1600's since the Spaniards banned any arts of fighting to be practiced in the Philippines. The Filipino adapted the Zarsuela show from Spain ans New Spain(Mexico) Filipino call it Moro-moro the climax are includes swords fight immitating the Moors fighting the Christian offcourse the Christian would won at the end. . Each actors/Actress wear a colorful clothing, decoraticves trapping around the hands called Harness since the Filipino have a hard touge and soft letter cant pronounce to this show Arnes De Mano later became Arnis de Mano. To the same Show each actor must learn the basic sword fighting techniques called Escrima, and the depensive sword techniques Estocada, a depensive tactics of the Bull fighter "Matador". This the theory of the old Escrimadores and Estokadores of Laguna where the name of this came after. Kali were never mentioned to us ever. Kali (Visayan Martial Arts) similar to Arnis, Eskrima this should be quoted, not the mother arts of FMA. In my opinion. BTW. Felezisimo Dizon name is on record of the Doce Pares of Laguna back in 1930's. The Two remaining Doce Pares Master of Laguna are still alived in Paete Maestro Modesto Madrigal(74), and Maestro Tiyo Magracia (86), this is both classmate of my Dad in Doce Pares Grandmaestro Felis "Pulis" Madrigal and Granmaestro Ente "Daite" Dailo. Just a small percent of the Laguna Arnis History. Sumasainyo sa Sining, Yours in the Arts, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA << 8) LaCoste. LaCoste was born in the late 1800s (1885-90? my guess) and was older than Floro Villabraille. He was unusually well traveled and trained in both the Christian and the Muslim areas of the RP. Regino Illustrisimo. I lose track of the relative ages of the different members of the Illustrisimo family, (Help please John Chow?) but it would seem to me that this would add weight to the fact that Tatang Illustrisimo (or his students depending on who is doing the telling) used the term too. Ben Largusa (and Greg Lontayo and Mel Lopez) of the Villabraille tribe. Ted Tabosa (used Kali and Eskrima). Leo Gaje. Bo and Chris Sayoc. Most of his teachers used the term eskrima, and some used arnis. (I would also offer the idea that as a matter of courtesy perhaps sometimes choose the term depending upon with whom they were speaking.) >> ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:48:18 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Old Term? FMA yesterday-today? > BTW. Felezisimo Dizon name is on record of the Doce Pares of Laguna back in > 1930's. The Two remaining Doce Pares Master of Laguna are still alived in > Paete Maestro Modesto Madrigal(74), and Maestro Tiyo Magracia (86), this is > both classmate of my Dad in Doce Pares Grandmaestro Felis "Pulis" Madrigal > and Granmaestro Ente "Daite" Dailo. > > Just a small percent of the Laguna Arnis History. This is all GREAT info! Thanks for sharing. Angel Cabales apparently had said that Dizon was part of Doce Pares, but we had been unable to verify that since he clearly wasn't a member of the Doce Pares group of the Cebu area. It is good to know that part of the oral tradition seems to be accurate. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:55:51 +1100 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #524 >I was told Princess Josefina was from the island of Samar. Is Gandara an >area on the island? Yes Gandara is pretty much right in the middle of the island. I have never been their myself, however I do know of people who have. When they asked people about a "blind princess" they didn't know anything about it. However to be fair the locals might have said this for other reasons (but I doupt it). ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:52:13 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #525 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.