From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #526 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 5 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 526 In this issue: eskrima: Re:Derobio in HI eskrima: Re: Hips eskrima: pangamut, kinamutay or kinamutai or kinamotay eskrima: Whatever eskrima: Magellans first battle and his death eskrima: Inosanto Book's History eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chad Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re:Derobio in HI >> I think that is Ron England's group. ?? I shall find out...I though Ron was in Honolulu. Thanks for the assistance, again. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:39:18 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Hips At 05:03 PM 11/3/2000, you wrote: >Power is generated from the hips (correct me if >I'm wrong). Focussing on that area makes me more aware of my hip motion, and >I find I have more power. so it does eventually have a self-defense app. > >:) >jocelyne You are far ahead of many, many other martial arts students in your realization....keep thinking and working on those basics. b ------------------------------ From: "Nate Defensor" Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 03:56:05 -0600 Subject: eskrima: pangamut, kinamutay or kinamutai or kinamotay >>That is why "Dumug" is so popular, along with drills. I've spoken to a >>man who knew Edgar Sulite >>before he came to the U.S. He said that Mr. Sulite was technique- and >>strategy- oriented prior to >>coming over. But he realized that what sells here are prearranged drills, >>not sparring. Filipinos who come here do so to feed their families. >>If you get enough people ignoring you because you >>offer only three or four Sinawali drills and have never heard of the >> arts of "kinomutai" >>(whatever the hell that is) or "hubad lubad", you learn real >>fast how to do it and teach it. Sounds opinionated. Sparring vs Prearranged drills. Does this mean in a sport like boxing or football one gets rid of prearranged drills? Hitting tires, using speed bags, hitting Thai Pads, doing layups in basketball, etc... all drills but sometimes necessary to develop skills and attributes. "Kinamotay/kinamutai/kinamutay" both in Ilongo and Cebuano means someone skilled in the "use of hands". Growing up in Bacolod City, Negros Occidental in the late 60's and early 70's it also meant to challenge somebody to a fight, "kinamotay lang", implies to fight or rumble or go one-on-one without weapons/bare hands. Training with "Escrimadors, Arnisadors, 'Kali', Kinamotay experts, bastoneros, etc.." in different places (the Bacolod City, Philippines, Kauai/Oahu, Hawaii, California and Chicago), all the same. The place of training whether in Manila, Tondo, Honolulu, or Chicago Parking Lot should not matter. Skill is skill, knowledge is knowledge. Whether the "Escrimador" came to Stockton in his "20's" or "30's", it does not matter. One does not stop learning or "revising" his/her approach or training because he now currently resides in the Mainland, USA. Above statement seem to generalize that all of us Filipinos residing in the U.S. teaching FMA revise our curriculum because we have to feed our families. Well, I have a family, teach FMA, and reside in the Mainland. I do not rely on FMA to feed my family. If I did, I would be broke, poor and unable to put my kid through school. And I am speaking from experience, I did at some point taught FMA & Martial Arts full-time for about 4-years (1983-87), I was constantly broke. I have a regular day job as a Network Engineer. FMA is a passion, not something that I will revise due to monetary reasons or ulterior motive to enhance my finances. Also, there are alot of tough/skillful/knowledgeable Filipino-Americans here in the Mainland. Just because we left Tondo, or Manila or Bacolod or Cebu, it does not mean we all got soft or lost our fighting skills or fighting spirit. Filipino or Filipino-Americans, native-born or U.S. born, US resident or Tondo resident, Tagalog speaking or non-Tagalog speaking: all very similar in experience. On proper spelling: Country is Philippines (in English), Pilipinas (Tagalog) People Filipino or Filipinoes (plural) or Filipinos (also plural usage) Tagalog spelling is Pilipino Slang or street word: Pinoy or Pinay (someone from the Philippines) Hubad Lubad or similar drills are taught in the Inosanto Method, Pekiti-Tirsia, Balintawak, Doce Pares, Defensor Method, and yes, even in the Inayan System of Eskrima (parry/parry, check) and possibly many other styles and systems. Gumagalang, Nate Defensor ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:41:35 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Whatever A Howl: I had intended to leave this subject, but in recognition of my substantial limitations in this area, I made what I hoped would be one last post by asking Guro I about some of the points raised. Now I'm sorry I've bothered him and that I've invested the time. This will be my last post on this. Jay, your position is perfectly reasonable and you have every right to it, but what communicates, and what comes close to irritating, is the idea that any American who does not take your word because you are Filipino is arrogant and is insulting Filipinos. One last try: My point is not that any position is right and that others are wrong-- for certainly I am in no position to know or say such a thing. Rather my point has been to try to share the basis for the terminology whose legitimacy you insist is so wrong that it cannot even be used without it being an insult etc. I believe I have shown there to be a reasonable basis for the term that I use deriving from what has been passed on to Guro Inosanto. Indeed, if you read what I wrote about what Guro I said, IT IS NOT, REPEAT NOT what he expresses an opinion on, IT IS WHAT HE HAS BEEN TOLD BY DIFFERENT FILIPINOS. THUS, THESE ARE MATTERS UPON WHICH FILIPINOS DISAGREE. IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR ME TO AGREE WITH WHAT FILIPINOS SAY, BECAUSE FILIPINOS DO NOT AGREE AMONGST THEMSELVES. > Many of the Filipinos who enter the international scene end up going along with what is being perpetrated already, because it's the only >way to get noticed. That is why "Dumug" is so popular, along with drills. I've spoken to a man who knew Edgar Sulite before he came to the >U.S. He said that Mr. Sulite was technique- and strategy- oriented prior to coming over. But he realized that what sells here are prearranged >drills, not sparring. I was a private student of PG Edgar from the time he arrived in America to the day he left. He came by my home to say goodbye the day before he left for the RP. And what he taught me was tactics and strategy. I have often stated that there is much of the system I do not know. (If you look at DBMA however, you will see that Lameco is credited with being one of the three principal FMA systems upon which it draws) He taught as best he knew how to improve my fighting. And when a professional martial artist with 7 kickboxing schools in the mid-west came to Los Angeles to challenge Lameco and someone who has lately been billing himself as an "undefeated fighter" lost badly to him while carrying the flag for Lameco, even though I was still with a flu and on anti-biotics for a secondary chest infection I fought him and submitted him and did this with a fencing mask while he wore a WEKAF mask. It was simple. He had been there for me and so I was there for him. Ron Balicki submitted him next and he surrendered in a cowardly way. So IF you are saying that he didn't teach tactics and strategy, I am here to tell you that my very direct and personal experience is that you are quite wrong. Indeed, waht you say sounds pretty close to saying that he sold out the art. Are you saying this? The fact that he also taught many drills can be seen as you choose to see it, or it can be seen as developing the system in order to reach more people and out of all those people reached, some will want to take it further. But I do not share the idea that those who do not go so far are not worthy of being students of the Art- which seems to me to be implicit in your words-- but perhaps I misunderstand. Also, PG Edgar had sparring in his backyard every month, and to this day Lameco players are consistent in their skillful participation in our Gatherings of the Pack. >> "I would suggest to you that if your current definition of "them" includes >> any other law abiding person (including law abiding martial artists of >> another style) then you really haven't met the real "them" and are wasting >> time and energy guarding against an attack from the wrong direction." > > I disagree, when someone is giving out questionable information, and you have reason to believe they KNOW the information is questionable, they are no longer on the same side you are; this analogy is mere rhetoric. You mean to tell me that no one here knows that the Kali of today is Arnis renamed? Of course Arnis may be Kali renamed, but that is like calling an assault rifle a "musket". Admit it--Kali and ARNIS are THE SAME THING!!! Sometimes some Filipinos use these terms interchangebly, and sometimes some Filipinos do not. I simply follow to the best of my abilities a man I admire greatly. In my case I have chosen one term of many possible. Sorry if you don't agree, but if you wish to put me on the "other side" the choice is yours, not mine. > "Combination of the words "Kamut" and "Lihod"-- using the first two > letters of each to create "Kali" meaning "the study of motion" > > "Kamut" means "scratch". Should know that by now...See what I mean? As I carefully noted, for naught it would seem in your case, this portion of what I was writing was from memory and it was entirely possible I did not get it entirely right. Or you could be just another example of two Filipinos arguing about terms "Hubud means untie!" "No, it means undress!" And again, the point is not that this explanation of the origins of the term kali is right and that yours are wrong, it is that this is one of the explanations (whatever the exact words were) given to Guro I. by Filipino masters. > "If I understand correctly, the point is that his > sources were from many generations ago and that terminology was/is different > than current terminology is to be expected." > > Explanation is not good enough. Filipinos who are native speakers would know the difference, and they are the ones you have to contend with when it comes to terminology. Guro Dan is not a native speaker. Also, keep in mind that there are just as many old people in this age group in the Philippines for reference. My point is, don't argue; there are people here who know better! To do so is a slap in the face and an insult to those who DO know! This is the arrogance we are speaking about! Filipinos disagree. Why name call because I listen to different Filipinos than you? > "(Rhetorical > Question on my part: unless someone wishes to infer that those who emigrated > from the Philippines to the US were on the whole of lesser skill and > understanding in the Art, then of what significance the fact that his > training occurred in the US?)" > > (Rhetorical Answer): While things evolved and improved in the Philippines, those who did not keep in touch lost out. Especially whe one speaks of purity (vs blending). I remember hearing once that no one fights full contact with bare sticks in the Philippines. This is not true, and never was. I read this in an article about the FMA by Inosanto or Vunak or someone in that camp. The Masters who came here did not train together, and lost the benefits of that experience, while many who stayed behind did. Plus, how much experience can a person whose training stopped in his teens or early 20s have? I believe the Masters from Guro I's time came here at a young age. I offer for your consideration that you are mistaken to assume that they stopped training once they got here. How would you know this? And "Inosanto or Vunak or someone in that camp" is pretty imprecise. Perhaps your memory of what was said is equally imprecise? As for the real contact stickfighting in the Philippines, I have seen it with my own eyes in the countryside of Negros as a guest of Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje. I also have sat at the knee of Dr. Gyi as he described the fights that he witnessed while deep in the countryside of the Philippines in the 1950s. He is in town right now (a phenomenal day at the Inosanto Academy today BTW! and more tomorrow-- ie Sunday) and I will be training with him on Monday. He can be elusive when video cameras come out, but with any luck I will persuade him to describe what he saw for the record. > Now, this is not to say that the Masters in the PI are any better; I just wanted to point out the advantages they may have had. I have no problem with this at all. Indeed, I agree that being in the homeland of the art is a wonderful thing and that there are MANY advantages to it and that it should be the north star of reference . Its why I have been there and why I will be back when my finances and personal life allow. Such a trip costs several thousands of dollars and I have had to do major repairs on my house. Such is life. My point is only that quality masters were also to be found in Stockton and elsewhere in California. > "13) In America, the barriers between different Filipino groups have broken > down more than in the Philippines. (If I understand correctly, he is saying > here that this enabled him to be exposed to an unusually wide array of > masters)" > > How would he know if he had never been there? Umm, because of what many Filipinos tell him? >>On the contrary, organizations like PIGGSA, NARAPHIL, and the PKA have brought many differnt styles together. In my opinion the fighting style used by the Canetes' WEKAF have revolutionized stickfighting, and this would not have happened if there were a barrier like Guro I pointed out. You need to read more carefully. I am not saying that barriers are not lessening in the Phlippines, but that perhaps they are even more so in the US. As for WEKAF, it is something about which I know only a little, but haven't Americans been important contributors to its vitality? >By the way, ask followers of the LAMECO group if Sulite's training was hindered by any "barriers". Well, as a private student of PG Edgar I can do a lot better than asking followers, I have what he told me directly. He spoke to me at length on various occasions about just how much he had to go through. Yes, there were considerable barriers and it is to his credit, and our benefit, that he had what it took to overcome or end-run them. Unless what he told me was not so, you are mistaken in this. > Jay > > P.S. > No offense to anyone, I've become sort of a "tell-it-like-I-see-it" person since I started training. I'm glad to hear you mean no offense, because when you accuse people of being arrogant, of slapping the face of the Filipino masters, of insulting the Filipino masters, and say that those who disagree with you on are the "other side" on a par with criminals, well then, people might otherwise misunderstand. > From: GatPuno@aol.com > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:34:59 EST > Subject: eskrima: Old Term? FMA yesterday-today? > > Marc, > > Very interesting story.. I admired all of this old Master that choose to > passes the arts to the younger generation. I know the facts that this > numerous great masters whom reached USA for the better or worse are proud > FILIPINO. Exactly! >The only things I would like to share is no matter how old this > people are, there (their) version of FMA History are remain glossy, or un-clear. I > would never said that my FMA are accurate 100% but atleast I try to searched > the truth and find records to supports the version of my history. > > If we are going to talk about who are oldest among this masters? All of them > is not old enought to clear the glossy history of our past. In case I have been misunderstood, please allow me to clarify what I hope to communicate here. Guro I's point was not that his teachers were the oldest, merely that they went back much further than most people appreciate, and that probably in some cases the terminology has changed/evolved in the over 100 years since their earliest years. There is no claim to an exclusive truth. You and he are in complete agreement that the history is unclear! It is a point he makes often. He is NOT saying is that any of the often mutually inconsistent versions he was told were right. Rather, he is saying THIS IS WHAT I WAS TOLD-- in this case about the term "Kali". Also, I hope you are not inferring that Guro I. has failed to try to search for the truth to the best of his ability? > , , , , > My points is in along history of Arnis I never heard anything from the old > Master about the words Kali, refer as a Filipino arts. Anyway I am not saying > this arts not exist. Like I mentioned before it is maybe Visayans. But some > Visayan claimed also never heard of it. So I came to the points that the > history of "Kali' is not solid. > , , , , Kali were never mentioned to us ever. > > Kali (Visayan Martial Arts) similar to Arnis, Eskrima this should be quoted, > not the mother arts of FMA. In my opinion. Gat Puno, I am sure that every one on the list appreciates your sharing of your knowledge in this area (as in all the others) I know I do. IN CLOSING: Folks, I make no pretense at being anything more than a student in these matters. I certainly enjoy when knowledgeable people talk about these things, (especially when done in a conversation instead of an argument) but generally look to avoid getting involved. What draws me into these threads from time to time is what communicates as an undercurrent on the part of some against Guro I-- in this case set off by Tom Meadows post about which I have already commented. In my opinion, Guro I. is a serious student of Filipino history, and of the FMA. He makes no claim that every thing he has been told is right, but shares it with us so that we may draw our own conclusions to the best of our ability. For myself, I really do not care for terminology feuds. Life is entirely too short. They are not why I got involved in the FMA and they are not what have any meaning whatsoever when a man steps on the field, or is called upon to act. These feuds are why I avoid using JKD/JKDC even though Guro I's teachings in JKDC play a central role in my approach to martial arts. The first DBMA t-shirts say "Kali-Silat and others" because of my level of understanding. The responsibility is mine. Like most of us, I'm just doing the best I know how. My next mistake won't be my first or my last, but for now I know why I chose this terminology and feel no need to explain myself myself. Having no independent knowledge of my own, I merely cite some of the sources of which Guro I has spoken. I also know that as DBMA has involved to include other Majapahit Arts (including Krabi Krabong and arguably Bando) and BJJ that theoretical problems arise. I have posted about this more than once already, including on the Filipino list, asking for thoughts and greatly appreciate the ones I received. Perhaps one day Kali-Silat will be reduced to one element of the system. But I very much doubt the term will cease because of anything I have read here this past week or so. DBMA is "A system of many styles devoted to smuggling concepts across the frontiers of style" (C). Just like the FMA it assays to be about what works throughout life-- in conflict and peace. Terminology squabbles are not part of the big picture and but for the digs at Guro I. that got mixed in with the disagreements with what Tom posted, I wouldn't have bothered. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 11:47:16 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Magellans first battle and his death >> Using these weapons according to the skills of eskrima, the developing Philippine martial art, >> LapuLapu and his warriors soundly defeated Magellan's professionally-trained force of soldiers >> equipped with the latest in Western weaponry. > Has anyone ever read about troop estimates for the first few battles, > in particular the first Lapulapu victory? Yes, 1500 Filipinos defeated 30 - 60 spaniards when Magellan attacked LapuLapu. The Filipinos attacked in 3 groups, from the front, from right and from the left, attacking the spaniards, who wore heavy armor, already in the shallow water with speers (some with metal tips) fire hardend sticks, stones, clay and arrows. They aimed only for the legs, because they were unprotected. Pigafetta wrote, that when the spaniards retreated, the Filipinos could pick up a speer 4 - 6 times and throw it again against the spaniards. About Magellans death Pigafetta wrote: "One native threw a speer into the face of the captain, but he (Magellan) killed him with his own speer, that remained in the body of the native. As he wanted to draw his sword, he could only draw it half, because his arm was injured by a bamboo-speer. As the islanders saw this, they attacked him. One injured him at his leg with a large cutlass, that looked like a sabre only bigger. The captain fell down face first and they immediately attacked him with their speers and swords, untill the had killed him..." Regards Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: abass@iname.com Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:23:50 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Inosanto Book's History Guro Dan's book was *compiled* by Dan Inosanto, Gilbert L. Johnson, and George Foon. So says the title page. I read the book as a pieced together work by these authors. Where there are words in a section like "I" and "my instructor" (Styles, page 14), I try to read Guro I speaking. Other sections (Forward page 4, Introduction page 5, On Dan Inosanto page 6, History page 10) I read as coming from one of the other compilers. Some sections include a mix of style and I just try to take it all with a grain of salt. There has been debate about the Floro Villabrille section. Especially the bit about the award hanging next to the Lapu-Lapu giant picture. Let's look at that piece of text: "In the Cebu municipal Museum they have a giant picture of Lapu-Lapu, the man who killed Magellan. Next in size is the certificate and picture of Grandmaster Floro Villabrille." Now, in the third paragraph of this page (35) we read, "In December of 1977 my Publisher visited Mr. Villabrille at his home on Kaui, Hawaii where he spoke of his special training." So, the rest of the page is more likely the result of this interview than anything else. Note that the quote about the certificate *does not* say that it hangs next to the Lapu-Lapu picture, but that it is next in size to it. The Lapu-Lapu may have been three feet tall and the certificate two and a half feet tall. Next in size means next in size, not next to on a wall. And did the writer see the picture of Lapu-Lapu in Cebu? Doubtful. More likely, the writer was told by Floro Villabrille during the interview about it. Maybe, "I have a certificate. See here. See how big it is? Only thing bigger is picture of Lapu-Lapu in Cebu." And the writer writes. We don't know how he got the story. The big one: On page 21, the page that starts off the bits about The Masters, we read at the top: "The following exerpts, by Gilbert Johnson, of some of the masters who influenced Danny's development are included here to give the reader an insight into the source of Danny Inosanto's Escrima and Kali." REPEAT: "by Gilbert Johnson" So, all this digest hemming and hawing about how and why Guro I got the information from Floro Villabrille is moot. Guro I didn't write that stuff, Gilbert Johnson did. Says so right there. If someone wishes to mention that Guro I could have stopped the publication if he'd wanted to then that someone doesn't know about publishing. Publishers can and do change things between an author's submission and final publication as they see necessary to ensure better sales. Their job is to ensure sales. That's what they do. Perhaps one of the reasons that Guro I has abandoned this book is because he is unhappy with some of the inconsistancies in it. Think about it, and let's stop trying to use it as some kind of FMA bible. It was never intended as such. It is a good read and suffers from a failure by its researchers to check the validity of some of the information they put into it. On page 171, Guro I (I read it as him anyway) states: "Most history is prejudicial guessing. According to Will Durant, ' Even the historian who thinks the (to?) rise above partiality for his country, race, creed or class betrays his secret predilection in his choice of matierias, and in the nuances of his adjectives.'" Since this book was not written by historians, and the information contained in it was not collected from historians, then why are so many people arguing its historical validity? Take it for what it is; some paper with some words on it. Some words are useful, use them. Others may not be, don't use them. Simple enough, really. ashley bass ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 10:29:00 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #526 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.