From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 5 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 527 In this issue: eskrima: kamut means a hand eskrima: Villabrille RE: eskrima: Whatever eskrima: Re: Philippine Fighting Arts eskrima: Names eskrima: re Sexual practices contrary to Tantra? eskrima: re Demonstration tricks eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vincent Bollozos" Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 18:30:30 GMT Subject: eskrima: kamut means a hand BTW in Cebuano kamot or kamut means hand Regards, Vince _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "Mark Harrell" Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:12:10 GMT Subject: eskrima: Villabrille I am sure that post will fall upon deaf ears and closed minds but here it goes anyway... There does seem to be alot of things being said about the late Mr. Villabrille that are nothing more than inflammatory statements not based in fact, but in hearsay. Let me attempt to shed some light on a few documented facts. Oh, yeah before I get up on my soap box (ha, ha)let me say that I personally do not think that bickering over hearsay ever solved anything. That includes my hearsay as well as yours. Let me qualify my hearsay: ha, ha I have been involved with the Villabrille-Largusa Kali system for twenty two years now and I am a Kali Association of America Board Certified instructor who has been awarded his teaching certification directly from Grandmaster Ben Largusa. I also met and spoke with the late Grandmaster Floro Villabrille on two separate occasions during the early and mid 1980's. I have also served two years on the Executive Board for the Kali Association of America, the governing body for the Villabrille-Largusa Kali system. This Association was founded in 1973 by the late Founder-Grandmaster Floro Villabrille and his top student and chosen successor Grandmaster Ben Largusa. My Executive Board position was KAA Secretary, was responsible for taking notes of all KAA meetings, writing and mailing letters from Grandmaster Largusa and Tuhon Lopez, as well as helping the other KAA Executive Board members document, archive and preserve the legacy of the late Grandmaster Floro Villabrille. There does seem to be alot of things being said about the late Mr. Villabrille that are nothing more than inflammatory statements based in hearsay. Let me attempt to shed some light on a few documented facts. Although I know that this information will fall upon deaf ears and closed minds I feel obligated to make an attempt out of respect for someone who is dead and cannot speak for themselves. It is a shame that people feel the need to attack and disrepect those who have passed on... First a brief list of some of the late Grandmaster Floro Villabrille's achievements and contributions: (Note: In my opinion, I think that a person's contributions are more important to the masses than a person's claims or persoanl achievements). I know that the first two will create a real stir in some of you. 1)He was "an" undefeated champion in Kali/Eskrima/martial arts competitions and death matches in the Philippines, Hawaii, and Australia. Most of his fighting did however take place in Hawaii. (Note: I did not state "the"). 2) Grandmaster Villabrille was awarded a certificate and diploma signed by General Frank Murphy, then Governor-General of the Philippines. The certificate states that he won the National Grand Sports Competition Martial Arts Division , held at Alonan Park in Manila on July 4, 1933. Thus giving Floro Villabrille the title Grandmaster of Eskrima/Kali and proclaims him to be the Champion of the Philippines. Note: that I have a copy of this certificate in front of me as I type this. This is documented proof of this Champion of the Philippines claim. 3)The Kauai Times newspaper wrote an article on him on October 30, 1979 entitled, Floro Villabrille: "Know How to Love and Respect" (something I think many of us have forgotten). The article starts off by stating, "Floro Villabrille is one of the greatest martial artists in the world...." The article goes on to highlight not only his martial art accomplishments but also some of the many wonderful things he did for his community, the young, the old, the poor, and even lobbying in the 1950's to aid Filipino immigration to Hawaii. 4)In the Cebu Municipal Museum there is a copy of Mr. Villabrille's Championship certificate and a picture of Grandmaster Floro Villabrille. (Note: I have seen photographs of this in the Kali Association of America archives from the late 1960's and early 1970's. I do not know if this still hangs in the Cebu Municipal Museum today). 5)Villabrille learned Kali from many sources traveling great distances and fighting the top martial artists of his time. He combined the knowledge he came across, with his own experience and developed his own unique system of combat, which he called Villabrille Kali. (Note: I am sure of the fact that Mr. Villabrille's Kali is a composite hybrid method that has its origins in Kali, Eskrima, Arnis, Silat, and Kuntao). 6) Floro Villabrille co-founded along with his top student, protégé, and chosen successor Ben T. Largusa, the Kali Association of America, on January 27, 1973. The Associations purpose is to maintain and develop upon the Kali methods, techniques, and theories deriving from Grandmaster Floro Villabrille. The Association also preserves the traditions, legacies, philosophies, and teachings of Kali as well as serve as the international governing body, authority, and certifying review board for all instructors in the Villabrille-Largusa Kali System. As I have already mentioned: Mr Villabrille fought in the Philippines, Hawaii, and in Australia. Most of his public fighting did however take place in Hawaii. (Note: I have included a brief history on some a few of his matches in Hawaii). Some of Grandmaster Floro Villabrille's public full contact matches were held in Hawaii during his fighting career between the years of 1933 and 1947. Most of his matches in Hawaii were open to the public similar to boxing matches. These were organized and funded events with paying spectators. Grandmaster Villabrille was active in training full contact Kali and Eskrima fighters for the Honolulu Civic Auditorium in the 1930's and 1940's. Grandmaster Villabrille's first public full contact match in Hawaii was in 1935 and was held at the old Honolulu Civic Auditorium. He fought against a man named Veloriano Seqovia. Villabrille's second public fight in Hawaii was in 1938 and was held on the Island of Kauai in the Manila Hall. He fought against a man named: Andrike Kihano. Grandmaster Villabrille fought many additional full contact matches in the old Honolulu Civic Auditorium. The most famous of his Hawaii full contact public matches was a grudge match held in May of 1946 against a man named: Francisco Ardona. Grandmaster Villabrille retired from the ring undefeated in 1947. In conclusion, I guess the stories,legends, and claims of all martial artists are kind of fun to hear. I listen to them and then go on with my life. These stories, legends, and claims whether fact or fiction do not have any affect on my study, or practice of martial arts. The fact or fiction of them does not contribute to my personal growth in the martial arts or even as person in general. In my humble opinion, they are just kind of fun and they add to the colorful history and legend of the martial arts. Try to lighten up a bit and enjoy your life because we will probably never be able to come into agreement over heresay or folk legends. I just do understand why so many people waste so much time and energy arguing about things that cannot possibly make any difference. In short who cares or why care? No body will ever be able to convince the other of their version of the truth... The TRUTH is as we each see it and live it. Very unique and personal. People have been fighting about who is right or wrong according to their own standards or point of view for thousands of years... All that this has ever proven is how childish we can all be over points that only matter to us. In fact, how many people in history have been hurt and or killed over such bickering??? Too many I assure you. Maybe if we spend more time studying and practicing we could improve our own understanding and expression instead of bickering over things that none of us truly knows for sure. After all, none of us were actually there... Think about it, we are fighting over hearsay. Peace be with you, Guro Harrell _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Terry Tippie Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 13:12:35 -0800 Subject: RE: eskrima: Whatever >From: "Marc Denny" >Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:41:35 -0800 >Subject: eskrima: Whatever > >A Howl: > > >For myself, I really do not care for terminology feuds. Life is entirely >too short. They are not why I got involved in the FMA and they are not what >have any meaning whatsoever when a man steps on the field, or is called upon >to act. These feuds are why I avoid using JKD/JKDC even though Guro I's >teachings in JKDC play a central role in my approach to martial arts. I would like to agree with Crafty on this point and extend his comments. The kind of feuds that exist in the FMA (and are mirrored on this list) certainly make for interesting and colorful reading, but the risk is that the general public, upon hearing these hateful words, will consider the whole lot of us as a group of selfish, jealous, narrow-minded and bickering people. I believe this does happen to some extent, and overall I think it hurts the image that the FMA has in the eyes of the public. I'd like to make a comparison to the Thai martial arts. Twenty-two years ago when I first started Muay Thai my teacher explained to me about the corruption and organized crime that surround the sport of Muay Thai in Thailand. He explained how teachers would make money by betting against their own fighters and then train them incorrectly for the fight. He told us that he had made a conscious decision to distance himself from that way of life and to represent Muay Thai with the kind of decency, discipline and respect that he thought the American people would accept in a martial art (A decency that also exists in Thai society if you look for it.) He was right. And in this country at least his efforts made a difference. Today I can walk into virutally any Muay Thai school in the United States and be treated with both courtesy and respect. (Part of this is because of the example set by our leaders, and part is because people work out so damned hard that they don't have the energy to bicker.) In FMA it is quite different. When meeting new people I generally hide my experience and play stupid, "bobo", about the Filipino martial arts. It is not that I'm trying to fool anybody. I just get tired of having people's eyes narrow and minds close as soon as they hear the sect of FMA that I happen to study. Too many of them will never think of you as anything but a member of an 'enemy faction'. It bums me out. My advice to the FMA community is as follows. Let the feuds and rivalries of our forefathers die with them. What good will come of more bickering? Learn from Filipino history and culture and try to be true in spirit to your teachers. But don't necessarily make their fights and jealousies your own. Have respect for others and bear in mind that what you say, do and even write will set an example for the people that will come after you. The next generation will, right or wrong, look up to you and imitate both your strengths and weaknesses. Try to set a good example for them. If all else fails try to find an opportunity to actually fight with some of the guys you criticize. Actual fighting breeds humility and mutual respect, and these are two things we very much need right now. Respectfully, Terry Tippie Pacifica, CA USA ------------------------------ From: Chad Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Philippine Fighting Arts >>Honest question here...if so many masters in the PI are unhappy with >>where the FMA is going today or believe that information is >>inaccurate, >>then why don't they get this message out via the internet or through >>this digest? I would be interested in hearing what they have to say. >They do, it's just that everyone wants to argue and defend their >position when they do. They do? Where? >And ask yourself, have you ever considered learning >from someone that does not teach by seminars or is not in the >magazines? I've seen some type of eskrima or arnis class in almost >every city I've been to, but it seems that most people woudl rather do >a seminar than study full time. I do learn from someone that is not in the magazines or do seminars. Ok, OK, he was in one magazine back in the 70's for the NHB 6-man gang fights he was running here in Hawaii. And I did/do study with him full time. I lived with him for four years and I when I first started learning, I trained every night except about 10 to 15 nights out of that 4 year period from 11:00 at night 'till 3 or 4 in the morning. He is not connected with any of the "Americanized" Filipino Masters or Grandmasters in America, and he also told me that he heard the use of the term Kali as a boy. Again, though, they called it Kahoy. Could it be possible that an acronym came from KAhoy and LIhod? Who knows? >Anyway, name an Anthropologist who have never travelled out the >country to do research, or a French Professor who has never been to a >French-speaking country. If one was really interested in uncovering >the mysteries of the FMAs, a trip to the Philippines is a logical >move, not a trip to Stockton or Hawaii. Well, I can tell you that I know a Spanish teacher that has never been to Spain. And I know alot, and I mean alot, of Filipinos here in Hawaii that have never been to the Philippines who can tell you, or teach you, how to speak Tagalog. >"Isn't it a little funny that Dizon and Villabrille don't use names >when they describe people instead using descriptors like "The blind >Princess","The Muslim Prince" and "The old man of Cebu". Makes it >fairly imposible to check who they are actually talking about, doesn't >it??" I am very reluctant in telling people the name of the man who I learned from, because he doesn't want to publicize himself. He teaches old school style and isn't the most open-minded person about one training under two FMA schools, although that doesn't mean he won't allow it, he just has to know you and what your intentions are. >If one was really interested in uncovering the mysteries of >the FMAs, a trip to the Philippines is a logical move, not a trip to >Stockton or Hawaii. Well, my humble advice would be, that if you were interested in uncovering the secrets of the FMA, than you should figh...uh, I mean go see a Filipino instructor or one that he has certified, or one that can fight. ;) >"Kamut" means "scratch". Should know that by now...See what I mean? Don't tell any Cebuano that. Of course, I am only speaking about the Americanized Filipinos in Hawaii. In Hawaii, we have faced a similar experience that of the Philippines. The Hawaiian language had almost died in totality, and if I am not mistaken there are less than 100 people that are 100% Hawaiian today. Now alot is happening to revive the old culture and many people are thankful for that. The Hawaiians did not have a written language or books until the Missionaries came and taught them English. So when they were working on the language, there were some holes or questions here and there, and the Kahunas and elders were the ones that they asked, but where do you find someone that is over 100 years old and still has that memory as sharp a Cold Steel blade? There is alot of talk that there is no proof of the word "Kali". Am I mistaken that there is no "fact" of things before the Spaniards arrival and documentation? Didn't the Spaniards burn the books and writings? Is it possible that Kali might not even be the whole word and just part of it, but was passd down through as oral tradition to some. Sometimes oral tradition can play to be an effective role in History, otherwise, how could your father tell you about his (historically undocumented) first time in the back seat of his 57 Chevy. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to say Chevrolet. My bad. Which come to think about it, many of us may or may not be a product of this event, however I'm sure not all fathers will pass this information on to their children. Hmmm. Well, until you guys call Bill and Ted to go visit Datu Lapu Lapu and ask him about Kali (any guys that can make friends with Ghengis Khan, could make friends with Datu Lapu Lapu, I just hope they don't pull him out before the battle starts-that could affect history), anyway...'Nuff Said. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Ingmund Forberg" Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:51:18 GMT Subject: eskrima: Names Someone said a few posts ago that he had never met a Filipino who hadn't heard about arnis and eskrima. My experience is different. I have a lot of friends that was born and raised in the Philippines. Not a single one of them have even the slightest clue what eskrima is. They all think it is western fencing. However, all of them know about arnis even though they all insist that the correct term is "arnis de mano" and not just arnis. IF Sometimes I feel there is more politics in the martial arts than in the Presidential race. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: John Chow Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:05:46 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Sexual practices contrary to Tantra? Venerable Dr. An Tzu (William Upton-Knittle) wrote (on that sexual practices are not part of standard Tantric traditions, and contrary to it):- >Most of what you say is, although passionate, not correct. Hhhmmm........ I would advise caution with that statement. If so, since these are the same teachings from genuine Tibetan masters, you are saying they are not correct. The implication is not that John Chow is incorrect, but they are incorrect................. Please then correct: * His Holiness Dalai Lama (Head of all Tibetan traditions) (strict monk) * The late Dudjom Rinpoche (previous Head of Nyingma Sect) (Has sons) * The late His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse (previous Head of Nyingma Sect) (has wife) * His Holiness Sakya Trizin (Head of Sakya Sect) (Has 2 sons) * His Eminence Chimed Ridzin (master of Nyingma Sect) (Has son, 2 daugthers) * Chagdud Tulku (master of Nyingma Sect) (has son, re-married American lady) * Beru Khyentse Rinpoche (master of Karma Kagyu Sect) (has 2 sons) * Kelsang Gyatso (a very conservative master of the Gelug Sect) These, and in fact, many high lamas of their calibre are versed in Highest Yoga Tantra, which you seem to classify as 'Left Hand Path'. By the way, I hope you are aware that the term 'Left Hand Path' actually means Deviant or Evil Path (Sha Pai - 'Sha' means evil, black, noxious etc) and is seldom used except by conservative elements of the Way, or by people who hear things second hand or through movies, books etc. I seldom hear it from practitioner yogis, except one of my Taoist masters. Please, read Dalai Lama's words in his published works: He explicitly stated that the true distinguishing feature of Highest Yoga Tantra that differentiates it from the lower Tantras is its simulation on the death process. He, and other masters, also state that the orgasmic sex process is also a simulation of the death process, a very very split second gap which we normally can not grasp and thus are not aware of (Haven't we heard of terms like 'Bring me to heaven' 'Mind blowing experience' 'Mind blowing bliss' etc?). Actually, from my understanding, this state is similar to, and nearly reached by warriors who engage in a real life combat - I have heard of accounts where the killing was done in just a slight second, but to the weapons can be seen coming in very slowly.......... (oh.... something new to discuss in FMA? Any stories, anyone?) Please note that Dalai Lama is a practising monk and has to show his subjects a good example. Nevertheless, he has studied the Tantras extensively, and he practices the consort practices as imaginary (only!!!), without actually taking a physical consort (ie. a flesh woman). He is a wonderful practitioner monk. Also, I have included the name of Kelsang Gyatso deliberately because is is what I would term very conservative monk of the conservative Gelug Sect. Even Venerable Gyatso himself has written on this sexual subject in his books, principally on the subject of Mahamudra - Bliss of Clear Light, if I remember correctly. (That book is based on the STANDARD and very commonly used Guhyasamaja Tantric Cycle - thus PROVING that even for a really conservative monk of the conservative Gelug sect, he still has to quote the sexual nature and references from the Guhyasamaja Tanra - a tantra of the Highest Yoga Tantra, proving sexual practices and references are a standard part of Highest Yoga Tantra). Thus, from the top masters of both 'far-out' as well as conservative traditions, you have published works detailing the correlation of the high art of sexual Tantras and the yogas. That is our Tibetan Tantric traditions. No more, but no less is acceptable. To say that is is not part of, or contrary to our traditions is not right. If you think you know it better than these most highly regarded masters, and they are 'not correct', I request you teach these gentlemen then! We also want to learn more (of what our teachings have been re-interpreted and understood in the West). Please note: Chinese and Japanese Tantra (Tung Mit, Mit Tsung, Mikkyo, Shinggon) does not contain Highest Yoga Tantra sections because it died out in China before spreading to Japan. Chinese and Japanese Tantra is based principally on the Maha Vairocana and Vajrasattva cycle of Tantras. It can not generate the secret consumate bliss, but is very good at the foundations. If you have watched the Japanes samurai section of the BBC TV series 'Way of the Warrior', that particular master is practising a remnant of Japanese Tantra, as applied to combat and healing. BUT THAT IS NOT TIBETAN TANTRA!!!!!! I must ask Japanese/Chinese Tantrists to cordially and respectfully refrain from commenting on Tibetan Tantra, something that is not their subject area. They can please keep to Chinese/Japanese Tantra (which I also studied, and thus I know what angle many people are coming from). I suggest that we, no matter how highly we think of our ability and understanding, be humble enough to accept the teachings on the Tantric traditions as taught by our very esteemed lineage masters instead of proclaiming what is the teaching and what is not the teaching and incorrect, and contradicting the great masters. We are only at the learning phase, for goodness sake! I have been with Tibetan Tantra for 24 years (other sects prior) and I am still subjecting myself to the master's teaching, accepting that they are teaching Tantra. I do not correct them as to what Tantra actually is and contains, and is not. I suggest if you disagree with these masters, write to them and correct them. I am only a student learner. If you can re-teach Tantra to the masters and they accept your Tantric teachings as correct and thus correct theirs, I will accept that newest (gee! Is there such a thing?) Tantras from them. Not otherwise. Oh..... I read a further email........ >I was the first person to invite the Dalai Lama to visit >Los Angeles. We spent time together and discussed all form of sexual >practices and history. I met him 5 times on his 1st trip to Melbourne. I had no involvement in 2 subsequent trips because they were 'hijacked' by corporates and the 'Free Tibet' movement who made him talk about Tibetan politics rather than deliver teachings. Does he deny Highest Yoga Tantra is standard part of Tibetan Tantra? Does he deny that Highest Yoga makes sexual references? Does he deny that the sexual references are both analogies and actual, and that since a monk has vowed to be celibate, he can not take a flesh consort and the meditation is only imaginary? If there is no denial, then since these sexual practices are standard part of Highest Yoga Tantra, and that in turn is not denied to be standard part of Tibetan Tantra, sexual practices are not contrary to Tantric traditions? By sexual practices, I am not talking about the bang-bang orgies, neither the pretend-make-believe things that lowly and unqualified people attempt, neither the '5 Prohibitions' of lowly and unqualified Hindu sects etc, Wiccan etc. A sexual yogi does not ejaculate on practice. That is the 1st and most most basic qualification of the 12 or 13 basic pre-requisite of not losing one's semen. The physical 'shooting' is just the 1st 'stopping'. If you say that the debased practices which are actually 'orgies in disguise', are contrary to standard Tibetan Tantra, that is true. Did you actually mean this, instead of the sexual practices in standard Tantric traditions? >my Dharma brother Thich Nhat Hanh That would be the famous Vietnamese master who wrote a few books? Ray Terry, and readers, sorry for intruding in your digest. I will abstain from further discussions on this. John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima ------------------------------ From: John Chow Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:18:18 +1100 Subject: eskrima: re Demonstration tricks Doc Carlton Fung wrote: >Yes but the great RP also lost the UFC and infact performed very poorly. >While these are amazing feats that I cannot do, the whole process of >real-time real-contact totally changes the game. His chi-gung/dim mak >whatever did not help him. I am no more impressed by taking a hit to the >groin than some petit woman coming into my office and telling me to drill >her cavity with no anesthesia. It happens all the time. It simple means you >can hit that guy in the groin when he is prepared. > I have to agree with Doc here. Many of the masters who perform such feats can do well if they are prepared for the blow, or in 'stationary stances'. Once in actual moving combat, they are not as invulnerable. Try it: get them to let you knock a few punches, and then immediately spar them. You will note a big difference. Only the top notch ones can apply it in actual combat. John Chow Kali Ilustrisimo and Lameco Eskrima ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:06:24 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.