From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #528 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 6 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 528 In this issue: eskrima: West L.A. schools eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 eskrima: Re: Tantra Nonsense eskrima: Re: To John Chow eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 eskrima: Amen and Me Too eskrima: the weekend is nearly here eskrima: Re: How big is your "us" eskrima: Re: The Horse's Mouth eskrima: Excuse me.... eskrima: Dr. Gyi Seminar eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Brannan" Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:36:31 -0800 Subject: eskrima: West L.A. schools My brother is interested in any good FMA, Silat, or JKD schools in the Culver City or Santa Monica area(California). Anybody know of any? Randy B. ------------------------------ From: "David Eke" Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:27:20 +1100 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 >There does seem to be alot of things being said about the late >Mr. Villabrille that are nothing more than inflammatory statements >not based in fact, but in hearsay. FACT: I went there and there is no picture. I asked one of the guards and he knew nothing about it. None of the people I asked in Cebu knew Villabrille. None of this is hearsay, just what I have observed. For those of us who had nothing to do with "the manongs of Stockton" they are not important to us just as many of the indigenous instructors would be unknown and unimportant to you. I am glad you decided to use the word "Kali" as it clearly differentiates between the arts which are indigenous in the Philippines and those which have been transplanted in America. Keep using it as it postmarks you exactly. Does it make anyone a better (or worse) fighter?.....of course it doesn't. Is Kali the mother art?... suit yourself. Have all the best instructors moved to America?....I doubt it. >I'd like to make a comparison to the Thai martial arts. Twenty-two years >ago when I first started Muay Thai my teacher explained to me about the >corruption and organized crime that surround the sport of Muay Thai in >Thailand. This is also quite common in pro boxing in the west. >Today I can walk into virtually any Muay Thai school in the United States and be >treated with both courtesy and respect. What are your experiences of training in Thailand? Over two trips I've found them to be both courteous and respectful. Again the influx of farangs trying to learn "muay Thai" has created its own problems particularly around Pataya but its not the Thais fault. "Muay Thai" is a well respected sport in Thailand but with any sport that is associated with gambling there are always bad elements. >He told us that he had made a conscious decision to distance himself from that way >of life and to represent Muay Thai with the kind of decency, discipline and >respect that he thought the American people would accept in a martial art If this is the case why does Thailand still produce the best pound for pound fighters? For me if you really want to see what Muay Thai is like go to Thailand. No one can tell me they can get the same feeling anywhere else in the world than at Lumpini and Rajdumnan Stadiums for what "Muay Thai" really is. People can tell you about it but its really not the same. For me its simple, if you want to learn Arnis (escrima) you go to the Philippines, if you want to learn Muay Thai go to Thailand. ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:33:52 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Tantra Nonsense At 07:06 PM 11/5/2000, you wrote: >Venerable Dr. An Tzu (William Upton-Knittle) wrote (on that sexual >practices are not part of standard Tantric traditions, and contrary to it):- > > >Most of what you say is, although passionate, not correct. Just to be clear, Mr. Chow stated the first two lines....mine is the one with the arrow next to it. b ------------------------------ From: William Upton-Knittle Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:39:37 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: To John Chow At 07:06 PM 11/5/2000, you wrote: >Please note: Chinese and Japanese Tantra (Tung Mit, Mit Tsung, Mikkyo, >Shinggon) does not contain Highest Yoga Tantra sections because it died >out in China before spreading to Japan. Chinese and Japanese Tantra is >based principally on the Maha Vairocana and Vajrasattva cycle of >Tantras. It can not generate the secret consumate bliss, but is very >good at the foundations. You may not realize it, sir, but you are a racist spreading racist and incorrect views. End of discussion. b ------------------------------ From: "Steven Lefebvre" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 11:05:29 GMT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #527 Forwarded from Rafael Kayanan: << We are not sure it is NOT western in origin, it may be based on the Spanish word "caliz..." >> Here's what my research concerning the thread you forwarded to me on the term "chaliz" has shown. I asked several professors of Spanish history, historical linguists and translators on the origin of the Spanish term "caliz" to mean "sabre" and they never heard of such a thing or they responded thus: "Chaliz o chalis isn't in the two volume dictionary. For sable (sabre) chincharrazo is in the thesaurus list." In addition, one reply even stated that if this term involved the Philippines- it may be the other way around! Especially for words around the 16th century. The Southern Philippine word "kalis" may have been appropriated by the Spanish/Portugese to mean a sword. Historically, the Spanish especially the Conquistadores appropriated some words of native tribes and used their terms for that region. "What happens with language is that the conquistadores language has remained the same or changed according to the environment of the native languages. For example, the ote endings on Mexican words is from the Nahuatl and the words are not peninsular Spanish in some cases ejotes for judías verdes (green beans) ot 19th c. "ansí" for "así" now in the 20th c." This is similar to the Americans appropriating the words, "boondocks" and "amok" from the native Filipino root terms. Another reply suggested it may mean "sobre" but they may have misread my inquiry to mean "Chalice". Reflecting on the root term "chalice" as the Greek's interpreted the word from the Aramaic Biblical texts of which the first use of the cup that Jesus drank from. Next, up would be whether the term links up to the Hindu "kali" as relating to mentions of a god like being. Greek and Indian cultures began intermixing during Alexander the Great's reign in 331 BC . The cycle continues. As for the root term of 'Kali", this is mere speculation but no one has addressed that the great Indian poet Kalidasa's name may be an influence to the Hindu Filipinos of that time. Now "dasa" meant the darker skinned peoples of the Indian Rigvedic period, a time before Alexander the Great. This writer's name is an amalgam of both Kali and dark. Muslim influence had not crept into India yet. As an aside, the word "pito" in Tagalog means seven, but the old Spanish "pitoy" meant penis. Take from that what you will. Glad to see a discussion of history in the eskrima digest forum. I'll make to include a mention of this in my book on Filipino History. Gumagalang, Asst. Coach- Rafael Kayanan/Sayoc Kali _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: "al sardinas" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 08:47:19 EST Subject: eskrima: Amen and Me Too Regarding Guro Mark Harrell's comments - I'm not deaf, I know the truth. I agree with everything you wrote, especially: "I just do understand why so many people waste so much time and energy arguing about things that cannot possibly make any difference." I say Amen. Regarding Terry Tippie's comments, I also prefer to downplay my FMA experience. Terry wrote: "I just get tired of having people's eyes narrow and minds close as soon as they hear the sect of FMA that I happen to study. Too many of them will never think of you as anything but a member of an 'enemy faction'. It bums me out.....My advice to the FMA community is as follows. Let the feuds and rivalries of our forefathers die with them. What good will come of more bickering? Learn from Filipino history and culture and try to be true in spirit to your teachers. But don't necessarily make their fights and jealousies your own. Have respect for others and bear in mind that what you say, do and even write will set an example for the people that will come after you......" Again, I say Amen. Regarding Ingmund Forberg's experience in "Names", All I can say is "Me Too". All the Filipinos I ever met who did not practice martial arts knew about Arnis only ,maybe some eskrima and none about kali. Let me stop here because if I was to continue it would contradict my Amens. I'm just stating my experience and nothing else. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Davies Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:05:24 -0000 Subject: eskrima: the weekend is nearly here I would just like to say thanks to Marc Denny for having put the case so eloquently in the face of so much bs (and one or two valid questions). As Ashley pointed out and that others including myself have all said before (so many times) many of the quotes that are attributed to Guro Inosanto are wrong/misquoted that the basis of many genuine points get lost on. Rather than attacking an individual on the hearsay of others or because you couldn't read what was actually written in his publications please feel free to promote your own arts based on what you know its strengths are. This will lead to a far more interesting forum. The points you raise will be more readily accepted as well. I will be attending Guro Inosantos annual Scottish seminar as I have done since 86 this weekend. Having travelled and trained in his class in Los Angeles I appreciate the difference in the way he teaches in a seminar and the way he teaches in class. Theres a difference and although my Australian friend isnt going to bother anymore, I will not miss the opportunity to once more train with a man that god has blessed us with. For this seminar I know there is going to be an empty hand approach as Rick Young has told me so. What ever, I know there will be times where I will only marvel at the arsenal of knowledge he has and the enthusiasm he approaches it. I will undoubtedly be mesmerised in a spell when he drifts into a story that often leads to so much more information being given. On top of that we have Erik Paulson and Larry Hartsell teaching as well. For those of you who haven't trained at an Inosanto seminar please don't be put off by the recent attacks. Train and enjoy the sharing of the knowledge from a man with the continued enthusiasm of a beginner. Life's too short that we waste our time trying to destroy the reputations of others instead of building our own. pat Aberdeen Martial Arts Group ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Books Inc." Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:48:11 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: How big is your "us" > From: "BILL MCGRATH" > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:19:30 -0500 > Subject: eskrima: How big is your "us" > Now if you wouldn't mind a personal question, just how big is your "us"? > I would suggest to you that if your current definition of "them" includes > any other law abiding person (including law abiding martial artists of > another style) then you really haven't met the real "them" and are wasting > time and energy guarding against an attack from the wrong direction. > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath My respect to you Tuhon Bill - I'm so pleased to see this perspective so clearly stated. My "us" is very similar to yours, and big enough to fit anyone willing to share, and learn, and celebrate the differences, without trying to prove who or what is "better". Variety is the spice of life, and while loyalty to one's teachers or styles is commendable, it doesn't mean another's loyalty to *their* teacher or style is misguided. It just means different people have different opinions. Let's save our animosity for those who demand it - such as the "humans" you mentioned you encounter in your line of work. I'm glad for the sharing of knowledge and perspectives on this list ...i just get tired when it becomes about "who's right" or "better". cheers, jocelyne ------------------------------ From: "Branwen Books Inc." Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:33:39 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: The Horse's Mouth > From: "Marc Denny" > Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:42:26 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: The horse's mouth > A couple of posts ago I made sincere reference to my inadequacies in > matters of FMA history/terminology etc. and also there was a post suggesting that well, perhaps someone in LA could ask Guro I about some of the points being discussed. I almost didn't (I know that he has been answering some of these questions for a long, long time) , but I did, AND I took notes. > Anyway folks, there it is. Please do try to distinguish my inferences from > my notes trying to capture what he said, and please try to be tolerant of > the fact that I was scribbling on a napkin-- thus I could have gotten > various points not quite right along the way. > Woof, > Crafty Thank you Crafty for taking the time, and please thank Guro Inosanto for his time also. I'm sure it must get very tiring to have us youngsters in the art keep asking the same questions. ;) My respect to Guro I. and to any other teacher, student or amicus curiae in/of the Filipino martial arts (by whatever name!) who is more concerned with teaching, learning, exploring, and sharing knowledge than with proving they are "the best". respects, jocelyne ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:17:51 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Excuse me.... Excuse me for some of my own incorrect information, especially concerning terminology. I am not a Tagolog speaker, and I admit that I consulted with Tagolog speakers--some of whom spoke "some" Ilocano and Cebuanu. I stand corrected on many of these. However, I still stand by my other statements, but I do not feel like arguing them any further. I apologize for some of my crassness if I offended anyone. Jay Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: "tim hartman" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 17:17:48 GMT Subject: eskrima: Dr. Gyi Seminar Greeting, I am proud to announce that on December 1st & 2nd one of my students will be hosting Dr Maung Gyi for a seminar. The topics will be Bando Boxing, Combat Stick & Knife. This will be held at: Northeastern Martial Arts Chili Plaza, 3240 Chili Ave Rochester, NY 14624 719-889-7330, martynoel@aol.com The cost will be: $65 by November 30th $85 after No. 30th Yours Truly, Datu Timothy J.Hartman E-mail wnyima@hotmail.com School site www.wmarnis.com/school/ Federation site www.wmarnis.com M.A. Supplies www.warriorsden.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:22:47 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #528 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.