From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #549 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 22 Nov 2000 Vol 07 : Num 549 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Training Full Contact Without Full Contact eskrima: NA MA eskrima: Turkey Day eskrima: Native American Arts eskrima: re: Joke Post eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #546 eskrima: Re: Indonesian Weapons eskrima: Ramayana of the Philippines eskrima: New list eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chad Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:35:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Training Full Contact Without Full Contact I think that distance, timing, and resistance are needed to train in any type of full contact situation. Here are some drills described that I replied to someone asking me personally about learning to close the gap: 1. Do a basic #3 siniwalli drill, with one stick only. High forehand, low backhand, high backhand. 2. On the first two hits, they stay in long/medium range. 3. On the third hit (high backhand), one guy crashes through with a palis palis, or an outside deflection. This is still kind of a dead drill, but it's an introduction to becoming "alive". Therefore, don't let them do this too long or they will like it and pay too much emphasis on it. You want them to just begin to understand the principles of applying these moves in motion. Technique application, not technique perfection. Once they have a basic understanding of this(between 10 to 20 times at the most, try moving on to this next drill. 1. Have them move around in the long range and both do fakes to each other, so they get the feel of what it's like. 2. One guy will actually throw a #1 and a #2 at the other guy. 3. The "other" guy will lean back and hit his hand with a light tap(this is just to link the ranges. 4. As soon as the #1 passes him, he should run in performing an outside deflection or a palis palis technique. For this one, you can start it having one guy as the defender and one guy as the offense. Don't let them get into a set pattern of 1,strike, close on 2,1,strike, close on 2,1,strike, close on 2,1,strike, close on 2,1,strike, close on 2,etc. Hope this helps, let me know. If I'm not mistaken, there is some video of this on the site under the video section. END OF PERSONAL REPLY... NOW: The first drill can also be done that the high f.hand(follow through), low b.hand(jab), and high b.hand(follow through) all the way though, and then one guy can crash though with his roof on the angle 1 or first hit. With gear on, they can do the hits hard and still have the fear of not doing the techniques correctly. Also, the drills are not stopped at these particular techniques, do what you gotta do. I don't know what Marc's Attacking Block Drills are or how they look, or if even similar, but I created these drills when I heard the term ABD. Maybe he can expand on this. On the second described drill, I say light tap on his hand, because even in practice with hockey gloves on, hits hurt, because there isn't the adrenaline. ===== Chad chad@fullcontacthi.com Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii http://www.fullcontacthi.com http://www.egroups.com/group/stickfighting __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Dale" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:04:16 -0500 Subject: eskrima: NA MA Thanks for the quick posts on the NA martial arts. A picture that stays vibrant in my brain is something I read about LaCrosse matches that may include over 1,000 guys. I can only imaging being on a field with 1,000 sticks wizzing by. Dale ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 7:43:03 PST Subject: eskrima: Turkey Day To those in the US that celebrate Thanksgiving, Happy Turkey Day! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Kendal Coats Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:25:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Native American Arts Dale, Traditional Native fighting arts are very similar to FMA. Our fighting styles also were honed against the Spanish, thus the similarity. However the existence of these arts in as martial context before first contact is an unknown. I can only speak for my own people, but we did not have a word in our language for war proir to contact. Conflicts were settled without loss of life. We took great pride in the ability to "count coux", to sneak up to our enemy and take a personal item or a lock of hair, or to touch an enemy. Village or tribal disputes were settled by a game of stick ball, and it is this practice that has many similarities to arnis. In a stick ball game, each player has 2 sticks about 31 inches in length with a small (about 2 in) net on the end (like lacross only smaller). We play in a large round field with a pole in the middle, on top of the pole is a wooden fish, a goal is scored in someone hits the fish with the ball (a hard ball of wrapped leather). These games are often bloody but no one is killed. In fact since I began study of FMA, my brothers are reluctant to play ball with me or always want me on their team. There have arisen several great warrior traditions among native people, those arts are passed within the family or to selected tribal members, but are usually not taught openly. Also let me add that our highest law has always been to never kill another member of your tribe. While this law has been broken in several nations there are still many that have never broken it, they observe and take pride in this law to this day. I know of no other culture (although I never claimed to know all cultures) that can make this claim. Seeing this, and our way of dealing with a dispute or an enemy, I can see why they called us savages. Just my opinion. Kendal Coats > From: "Dale" > > Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:42:53 -0600 > Subject: eskrima: Native american arts > > Has anyone on the list had any experience with > Native American martial arts? > I'd be interested in hearing how similar or > dissimilar they are to many of > the Filipino martial arts. I remember an article in > Full Contact years ago > that interviewed Blaize Loong (sp?) that studied NA > martial arts as well as > the arts mentioned here on this list. > - ------------------------------------------- > See you in the sticks, Dale > MCP, MCP+I, MCSE > Wk: 804-292-7421 > www.kalieskrima.com > - ------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: LRHorton@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:22:28 EST Subject: eskrima: re: Joke Post O'siyo: (hello) I have been a faithful lurker for years now, have really enjoyed alll the threads, and I am a student of Lapdos Leti Garrotte for the last 8 years. I am also a 1/4 Cherokee, and found the post on the Seminoles hilarious. This was in no way demeaning, or insulting. Native Americans (like any other racial group) have a large capacity for self - humor. If we do find something to be offensive, you will know! :) Have fun, thanks for the concern, (by the way Mik, I do appreciate your posts also) This has got to be one of the best lists I have subscribed to. Lots of practical advice. We do a lot of full contact sparring, and the Digest has put out a lot of good info, and a lot of funny stuff too (i.e Crafty and his dog). To all the list Happy Thanksgiving! Regards Do-nv-da-go-hv- until we meet again Larry ------------------------------ From: Ludwig Schwarz Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:32:43 +0100 (MET) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #546 Sorry about that...:-( But there are some some facts that I have to add to your happy fantasy.. > From: "Johnaleen" > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:00:29 -0500 > Subject: eskrima: re: Baratero: > > Baratero: Spanish, name for the knife-fighting method of the gypsies, > using > 'la navajo' Navaja (folding knive), 'el cuchillo' (knive) and 'la > tijera' > (chisel ?). Actually "Baratero" meant "Street thug" in conversational spanish of the last century.. > A Spanish book on this method was published in 1849.Also there is a book > in > Spain I believe called... > Manual del Baratero, which is an authentic and contemporary book on the > subject. but I don't have more information about it for sure.. The contemporary book is a reprint of the old one, and its complete title is "Manual del Baratero, o el arte de manejar la navaja, el cuchillo y la tijera de los gitanos" which means mor ore less "Manual of the street thug, or the art of using the navaja, the knife and the scissor like the gipsies" tijera = scissors Navaja: In spanish any folding knife. The one you describe below is colloquially known as "faca"... > The knife that is used is specific to the style I believe.. No, it's only the usual shape of the folding knives in spain in the last 300 Years, and therefore logically the one used in most streetfights. > Is this not the style described by Mr. J. Loriega in "Seville steel"? I > believe Mr. Loriega is/was a member of this list. I said it before, but again: There are no STYLES in spanish knife fighting in Spain!!!! What you are doing is assuming an oriental, confucian mindset for the average spanish peasant of a century ago. If you wanted to learn knife fighting, you just searched an "succesfull" knife fighter (i.e. one who is still breathing ) and convince him to train you. The whole paraphernalia about "styles", "linneages", or worse "grandmasters" or such a thing simply isn't applicable to the spanish mindset. There are a few literary and historical sources to the way spaniards fought with their "navajas" in the last century: - -"Manual des Baratero": See above. It's out of print, but you may get a photocopy of the book at www.barataria.com the similitude in the names is coincidental. This is just a spanish bookstore which is "barato" = cheap! Mind you, that the book is in spanish only. All its ilustrations are taken from: - -"Viaje por Espa~na" ("Travel through Spain") from Davilliers and Dore. Gustave Dore himself, the famous french painter from the 19th century wrote this book. It's two volumes, and only one chapter is dedicated to spanish knife fighting. There are no "styles" mentioned, but some teachers, who had a lot of pupils training. All the nomenclature Loriega uses is also taken from this book. I have not been able to find an english version through amazon, so maybe you will have to settle for the spanish one, (maybe you are able to find a french one, after all, it's an french book) You can get the spanish version also from barataria.com - -"La navaja espa~nola antigua" from Rafael Martinez del Peral Fronton. Good book on the history of the navaja. Lots of illustrations. Not a single word about it's use in combat. Out of order, spanish only, but available as a photocopy through barataria.com - -"Carmen and other stories" from Prosper Merimée. French writer of the 18th century. This Book is the one, on which the Opera "Carmen" from Bizet is based. In the novel, one character kills another in a navaja duel, and the technique is briefly described. Only mention of "styles" I was ever able to find. And only to say that the "basque" (northern spanish) Style was better than the "andalusian" (southern spanish) style. Regional differences, not "fighting schools". I am half spanish, and have spent all my youth in this beautiful country. At this moment, there is NO FORMAL TEACHING of "navaja fighting" or whatever you might like it to call in Spain. Maybe there was in the time of Dore, but after the military dictatorship of Franco (1939-1975) during which "weapons" were generally forbidden, there simply are no (traditional) schools. I have no reason to doubt about Mr Loriega's adventures in Sevilla, but his "Teacher" (maybe even a great fighter) will surely have invented all the names of the styles. AND he will have made up the styles, maybe as a training aid, maybe....think what you want. Personally I don't like Mr. Loriega's book at all. It's like when you read a french book about the USA and you read ther that everybody in the USA is riding horses, driving cattle, wearing cowboy hats and singing lonely songs with the guitar at sunset. And have very pictoresque styles of fighting with a special weapon they call "Colt". And of course our frenchman author was able to find the only surviving "colt school" of an old traditional linneage, learn the "Apache Style" and the "Missisippi Steamboat style" from the grandmaster himself, and now teaches "traditional american colt fighting" in Marseille, France....get my drift? The Spain Mr Loriega describes in his book may exist, but it's mostly in the eye of the watcher. No hard feelings. I hope I haven't hurt anyone too much. Mr. Loriega is a nice and (seems to me) sincere Guy, and we have discussed this matter in private e-mails. It's just that tourists never get the same impression as people who live there all their life. I wonder if something similar may happen with the filipino arts ;-))) Just my two pesetas Ludwig, now in Germany - -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:23:55 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Indonesian Weapons Weapons collectors A friend of mine is selling what I understand to be a rare silat weapon called a rentjong on ebay. Older renjongs in good condition are about as hard to find as older Karambi. You can find the item here: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=502812018 He lives in Amsterdam but don’t let that put you off. He has the best selection of Silat/ Indonesian weapons that I have seen from a dealer (better prices than Fagan and a more consistant supply than Cecil). He specializes in non Kris weapons (ie. Rentjongs, sewars, Klewangs, Parangs) and Mandaus. He’s in the processes of designing a web site similar to Oriental Arms or Liongate. I’ll post the url when it’s available. He's been a good source for me of quality indonesian weapons from the warrior cultures of Batak and Atjeh. Regards. Jim Lowe ------------------------------ From: Solimanus Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:59:58 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Ramayana of the Philippines La MaMa e.t.c. presents Rajah Mangandiri The Ramayana of the Philippines a world premiere Kinding Sindaw Company And a cast of 16 dancers & musicians Opening Night Gala, Nov 30th - $ 30 November 30 - December 10, Th-Sun. @ 7:30PM, Sun. matinee@3:00 PM Tickets - $ 20 (Fri & Sat) $ 15 (Th & Sun), Box office-212-475-7710 La MaMa Theatre Annex, 74-A East 4th St. @ 2nd Ave., www.lamama.org www.kindingsindaw.org ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan Broster" Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:00:12 -0000 Subject: eskrima: New list Hi For any members in the UK I have just started a new EGROUP called MAcoursesUK. Which is an open forum to allow any members to share info on up coming courses, irrespective of style/system. If you want to join go to: http://www.egroups.com/group/MAcoursesUK Mabuhay Jon http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:13:38 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #549 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.