From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #562 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 1 Dec 2000 Vol 07 : Num 562 In this issue: eskrima: Re Striking the Ground " Espada Ya Daga " eskrima: Elbow Counter-attack eskrima: Offensive weapons in England eskrima: Size of the DB sticks? eskrima: Dizon info eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #561 eskrima: Striking the ground eskrima: Remy Presas eskrima: Sigung Lee's technology eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #561 eskrima: Hitting the ground: Context and Use. eskrima: Any One Heard of the Tirung? eskrima: down ? ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource An open FMA discussion forum provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay, Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Johnaleen" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:05:59 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re Striking the Ground " Espada Ya Daga " There are a number of styles of Eskrima that Strike the ground..... I will use the word Eskrima here because the type of technique we are referring to is done in Espada Ya Daga....... Meaning " Sword and Dagger" Almost all the Systems that are in the FMA have striking system for it..... because of the mix of sword and dagger in the art form its the bases of it and the path where the 2 of them came together....... the Spanish swordsmanship with the Filipino Knife skills....... Espada Ya Daga....... Each has there own way about it of course........ and by no means will i say this is the only way its used but the Main reason that i have learned some of the stikes for the ground..... Now why are you hitting the ground? a few reasons...... One you must remember that the art form long ago when i was first open and practiced was done in the sand on the beach....... low to the ground sometimes and on your knees..... you are not nessacarly striking the ground the movement here represents you flicking the tip of your sword into the sand or...... into the dirt... and then your flicking the sand-dirt into the opponents face witch gives you the opening for the kill... because you have just taken there sight away and you have that handy dagger in your other hand to go straight for the eyes or were every your striking and cutting patterns are taking you....... Other reason........ your cutting off there feet and toes when you have the chance..... even just slicing them there making it hard for them to move in the sand.... quite painful if you think about being barefooted in the salty sand with open cuts in your feet......barefooted in the sand or even with shoes on..... the sword surly would cut off the shoe as well as the foot if its on........ as i said there are other reasons... but from the different styles of eskrima i have seen and worked with...... these are the 2 places i have used it and seen it used....... Johnaleen...... F.A.T.E. Facilitating Awareness Through Empowerment 1-888-526-4626 F.A.T.E@f-a-t-e.org www.f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: "Brian Crowley" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:30:38 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Elbow Counter-attack I've taken several martial arts over the last 15 years. I recently began a FMA class. I was a little surprised by a drill that we did in which the defender moved out of the way of the punch & placed his elbow where the original target was - causing the attacker to punch the defender's elbow (no contact in class of course). Is this a standard technique in FMA ? Couldn't this damage the elbow if you were to actually take a relatively hard punch. I'd love to hear what people think of this kind of counter-attack. Brian _____________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:46:04 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Offensive weapons in England "Until recently I lived in a neighbourhood where the local drug runners openly carried knives. For this reason I made decisions for myself. Living outside that neighbourhood has lessened the risk of meeting the knife carrier but not totally eliminated it. I therefore have made choices that reflect that. It would be advisable that the choice reflects the implications if someone was to take the weapon and use it against you. Since statistically the greatest threat of assault is not in the street its worth considering why you feel the need to carry. Have you been watching too many movies recently? ; ) Now where has my steel comb gone?" Where are you statistically most likely to get attacked in England (sorry, in your case, Scotland)? Used to be pubs, clubs, football grounds and Glasgow :-) I would have thought that you would be statistically least likely to be assaulted watching too many movies :-) Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC P.S. Can you be charged with possession of Doc Martens or a very short haircut? P.P.S. In 1974 a Pakistani colleague of mine who was a geologist was stopped early in the morning in Oxford Street outside Selfridges and asked to put his geological hammer he was carrying into his rucksack by a pair of policemen. Nothing new under the sun... ------------------------------ From: "Kevin" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:22:57 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Size of the DB sticks? On the DB Gathering tape, it appeared that many of the combatants were fighting with large diameter sticks. Can someone (Crafty?) tell me what the average diameter of the sticks that the fighters use? Thanks, ~Kev ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:48:14 PST Subject: eskrima: Dizon info Just thought I'd share this email that I received awhile back from Florida's GM Federico Lazo regarding GM Felicisimo Dizon (1896-1984). This was previously posted back in v06, but thought the 'reprint' might be of interest... Ray - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Grandmaster Dizon Info Dear Mr. Terry I had heard GM Dizon say "Tapos ako sa De Cuerdas," meaning he finished or passed De Cuerdas. First I thought that he was referring to the success of passing through the tunnel test because Cuerdas as understood in the Philippines means "a stretched string of a guitar," but it also means a tighten spring which was used in the tunnel of death test. All along I understood that he knows Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel of Death. Dizon is Visayan and Cabales is the same. He probably made it appear that his Eskrima is De Cuerdas to Cabales to indicate the quality of his art and it eventually turned into De Cuerdas. Personally I understood it to be an Eskrima that passed the Tunnel of Death or De Cuerdas tunnel. An Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel test has to be superior. It has been said that people who went through this test prepared their coffin ahead of time because very few passed it. The Legendary story about Dizon mentioned that he passed the test without injury and difficultly, which indicates that his personal expertise on his Eskrima is exceptional. De Cuerdas or any other name if it deals with the stick still is Eskrima. Very Truly Yours, Federico Lazo ------------------------------ From: Powrscrol@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:59:22 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #561 In a message dated 11/30/00 4:46:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My name is James Stacy >> Oh wow man, how you been since the motorcycle wreck in '73?! Steve W. ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:45:30 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Striking the ground Here are a few more: - -sending dirt into the opponent's face - -a "beat"; a quick pause in one's motion. the sound of the stick hitting the ground distracts the opponent, giving you time to go into your next move. - -"setting the height"--the hit helps the student measure his height while "weaving" with his head and/or body. Instead of giving the opponent a still, easy-to-hit target, some styles move around, leaning side to side, and up and down; this makes one harder to hit. - -hits below the knee. Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ------------------------------ From: "Carlo Seletaria" Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 06:22:45 Subject: eskrima: Remy Presas I understand that the Professor is recovering from medical conditions, but if anyone could contact him please tell him to call us here at San Pablo, California at 1-510-233-4003, I am his only grandson through his first daughter Mary Jane Presas, through his first wife Rosemary Pascual Presas. Please tell him that we will pray for his well being. Carlo Seletaria _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:36:42 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Sigung Lee's technology > >On Sigung Lee's technology: Based on what he developed into from lots of >drills and repetition, no?:-) He also taught drills, yes? Freedom of >expression through discipline ... or trial-and-error? Not taking a side or >creating an issue ... just provoking some thought. > >Be well, >Mik Yes Mik, You are correct. He was taught in a traditional way. His technology was the teaching method where he circumvented the classical theory that you had to learn to sit-up before crawling and crawl before standing. Many of his contemporary did not make the transition from technician to fighter. He proved that many times over. The fact that today the face of MA teaching philosophy is so different is evidence of a revolutionary shift caused by a desire for reality based training. The teaching method was basic skills to punch and kick then spar it. Through trial and error and constant study with drill and technique came combat skills. Drill and technique became vocabulary to add flowery detail to the book you wrote. Vocabulary is just words. Syntax and sentance structure and paragraphs even with rudimentary vobaculary held more power than big words. His theory delivered through Sifu Inosanto and Sifu Bustillo in the L.A. area, did not give us tools but taught how to make tools. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:14:03 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #561 Dave Writes: >>IMNSHO, throwing someone into sparring before they have some basic skills >and reflexes will allow them to develop some ability to apply the stuff >BUT it will also instill a bunch of bad habits early on that you will have >to break later. We probably agree more than disagree. This is the common reason given for taking babysteps and drilling adnausium. I just don't beleive it. We all have bad habits. We all have some quirk about how we move due to a past knee injury or some geeky tick. We all have to learn to overcome them. Moving in a female triangle or box is a framework. I say just do it. You can't run the football field like Deon Sanders no matter how many times you run it perfectly with no real players on the field. You have to take the basic tools and find "your" way. >Agreed. Isn't muscle memory one of the key differences between an >experienced person and an inexperienced person? Well no muscle memory is a catchall bad term. It really is more like muscle understanding and adapting. Have you noticed that you can just slip the punches of most guys at your level but somehow a really good guy seems to have a heat seeking missle for a hand? Wel it is not muscle memory as in programing a strike but the ability to understand and remember enough about the strike and the skill to know how to adjust technique in real-time that makes it work. They get that through sparring lots of people under lots of different conditions and stress levels off balance in balance injured etc... perhaps a better term is proprioceptive muscle memory. That more accurately describes things like how you can adjust yourself while trying to write with a pen while you are driving a car for example...function with distraction. >memory? Repetitions be it throught drills, kata, sparring, whatever. IME, >sparring is too random for instilling muscle memory for a broad base of >physical motions. I think it is those exact random motions delievered through repetition that are really important. Then you drill to simulate those motions so you don't totally forget them. >to. A good set of drills or kata teach the entire set of skills. It's a >just a different philosophy of training really. Do you want to learn a >small set of skills that you can apply quickly or do you want to work on >the entire skill set and be able to apply it less quickly? I think you have to understand the appication first so that you can appreciate the drill. There is no teaching of an entire set of skills in drill or kata but a remembering of a vocabulary in no particular order. Slipping a punch and moving to close and delivering a roundhouse kick is a skill. A roundhouse kick on a pad is just vocabulary. In today's fast >food mentality the former choice is much more popular. It's also popular >in times of war when you need to pump out a bunch of infantry as quickly >as possible. It is my understanding that Largomano was used by the >Philippine Rangers because a basic version of it could be taught quickly. There it is we totally agree. BTW almost 30 years later I have tried to learn it fast. I'm still learning. However fast you can learn it, there is more. Learn it fast you won't be disappointed. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca ------------------------------ From: EGJundis@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:18:07 EST Subject: eskrima: Hitting the ground: Context and Use. Note: read with a grain of something kosher and an ear for what you can use. If you don't have the inclination to do that why read it. Enjoy. There are two frameworks to view hitting the ground through: a fighting matrix and a training matrix. A fighting matrix should produce a successful fighter. A training matrix should produce a competent practitioner. For training in Serrada, the first move most folks learn to hit the ground in is a technique called 3-point pass. It is a passing counter used when attacked at waist level on the live hand or daga side. The movement uses a replacement step with female footwork. It is a fast and fluid movement that requires complete coordination of hand and footwork to be effective in real use. Hitting the ground provides an audio cue for the development of hand and footwork coordination. It is best seen rather than explained. Audio cues for defense, counters, and coordination are found through out the Serrada curriculum. In the case of 3-point pass the audio cue is generated by hitting the ground. Audio cues are also tactile cues. Angel was known to say that as soon as his opponent heard the clicking sound of their weapons meeting, they were hit. For those who don't know audio cues cause the quickest reactions in human beings. That is why fighter planes have audio as well as visual warning systems. In combat every nuance counts. Serrada also teaches deflection techniques that end with the stick hitting the ground. These are mostly for low line attacks. In the Serrada teaching progression at the advance level, there are variations of techniques that are used against high line attacks that are redirected to a low line sometimes ending with a hit to the ground. One technique is similar to the Kali Ilustrisimo Suplit (slap). This summer I was shown some nice variations of this from Guro John Chow of KI and have since compared them to techniques I have learned from Master Darren Tibon of Eskrima Serrada. In the fighting matrix, hitting the ground takes on a different context. GM Jose Mena was also known as Jumping Jack Mena. A favorite fighting style of his is to hit the ground diverting his opponent and then jump into the air and strike down. It was particularly scary to be on the follow up of his dobletes. Mena's dobletes are similar to Pekiti Tirsia's number one strikes from the closed position. Keep that in mind and imagine a man in his seventies who has done the same movement since he was a child and has used it on more than one occasion for self defense and non-armored full contact matches. The man can generate some power while doing this. Other variations were to hit the ground and immediately follow up with a low line or upward strike (an upward sunkite or aldibest). He said he would also use it to toss sand especially at longer ranges. GM Angel Cabales also used hitting the ground as part of various fighting strategies. While in the outside circle range (i.e., being out of stick range) he would alternate hitting the ground on the outside or inside of his body while also alternating his lead. By staying low and keeping his upper body open he would draw his opponents into attacking. His follow up counters were numerous. There was a time in the 90's in the Northern California Eskrima tournament scene when all of the trophies for sparing were won by members of the Angels' Disciples organization out of Stockton, CA. Attacking by drawing and deception by hitting the ground was used time and again by these second generation students of GM Cabales to successfully out maneuver and set up their opponents. Datu Frank Little the protege of Master Darren Tibon was undefeated in over 70 matches and fought some of the best from Bahala Na, Doce Pares, and the other N. Cal competing organizations. Tournaments is not street fighting: it's a different game. Hitting the ground was still valid and effective. There is also a historical context for challenges matches where hitting the ground signifies a fight to the death. I heard this from GM Antonio Ilustrissimo, GM Jose Mena, as well as from various first generation students of GM Angel Cabales. Thank goodness for the ED. Where else could I share this stuff. I have a question for the Pekiti Tirsia, Dog Brother, and Villabrille-Largusa folks. Do you use hitting the ground in any of your teaching or fighting matrixes? Also has anyone else heard about the historical context of hitting the ground in death matches? Elrik Jundis Director/ Lead Instructor School of Pilipino Martial Arts ------------------------------ From: EGJundis@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:25:03 EST Subject: eskrima: Any One Heard of the Tirung? I was wondering if any one on this list had heard of the tirung or has any info they would like to share. From what I know, they were a pre-1900 phenomena. They were Eskrimadors who would travel from village to village looking for challenge matches. They were known to prefer fighting with blades and commonly road carabaos. Thanks in advance for you replies, Elrik Jundis SPMA ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 7:33:19 PST Subject: eskrima: down ? My office and Unix box are being moved today. That may result in the list being down for a few hours. If things go wrong it could be down for a few days. Just FYI... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V7 #562 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.