From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #32 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 19 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 032 In this issue: eskrima: safety tips eskrima: Pak Victor deThouars Workshop in Santa Cruz - Feb. 3 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #31"Woman's self-defence" eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:20:57 PST Subject: eskrima: safety tips wrt the women's safety tips, the following was a response to this piece when it was posted to the_dojang. Apparently it has been making the rounds. FWIW. Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: the_dojang: RE: Safety tips... I had to jump in here about the "helpful tips for women." This email gets put about (sort of like the perennial "mouse balls" jokes) every once in awhile, and each time it sets my teeth on edge. I appreciate the fact that Anne wished to help, and the phrasing of the original email makes it seems very truthful and helpful---but it actually is very counterproductive. Among other things, I'm on a women's self-defense list (as are a couple of other people here, I think) and we analyzed that particular email (read: ripped it to shreds) just the other month. I'm going to hit some of the high points we discussed on that other list, just to give a few examples. Again---this isn't anything against the original poster. Indeed, the email makes a couple of decent comments, but mostly tells a lot of myths as to what happens, and gives some very bad advice with regards to situations. For people interested in this sort of thing, I highly suggest going to egroups (www.egroups.com) and looking into the email group "WSDList." > From: Donnla Nic Gearailt wrote, > replying to: > >From: "Anne Skjold" > > > > I thought this would be a beneficial email for all my female friends, > >family and fellow Martial Artists to read about. I hope no one ever has to > >use this knowledge but you just never know. Better to be safe than sorry. > > > Firstly, many thanks for posting this - there are quite a few things in it > that I wasn't aware of (especially the average time of day women are attacked, > I would have thought it would have been at night, after bars shut). Indeed so. Far as I know, this "fact" about when women are generally attacked, isn't actually proven anywhere. Matter of fact, most of the "facts" stated in this post aren't actually backed up by the data available. > > * If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you > >and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists this man talked to said > >they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be > > afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target. If you > >carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries > >it with him wherever he goes,) yelling I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY and holding it > > out will be a deterrent. > > > pity we can't carry this in the UK. I've been told hairspray is a reasonable > substitute and legal to carry. ...and anyone who has actually worked with pepper spray knows that this is NOT how you want to use it. > > Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your > >surroundings, take someone with you if you can and if you see any odd > >behavior, don't dismiss it, and go with your instincts. You may feel a > >little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was > >trouble. This is one of the few things in the post that seems spot-on. It was interesting----one of the moderators of the WSDList said "it seems like the author did even less research than normal" with regards to his facts and pronouncements. Every once in awhile he said something good, but mostly he seemed to be respouting a lot of hearsay about what happens, and making up ways to deal with it. Here is the original email, with some comments from me: > Forwarded by a friend: > Interesting insight! > > I just finished taking the most amazing self-defense class, sponsored by > Shandwick, and I wanted to share some really valuable info with you before > it goes out of my head. The guy who taught the class has a female friend > who was attacked last year in the parking garage at Westport Plaza in > St. Louis one night after work and taken to an abandoned house and raped. > He started a women's group and began teaching these classes soon after. > This guy is a black belt in karate and trains twice a year with Steven > Segall. He and the others in this group interviewed a bunch of rapists > and date rapists in prison on what they look for and here's some > interesting facts: In the egroup, people found this very funny, for many different reasons. Among other things, Segall (actually spelled Seagal) doesn't practice karate, and the fact that the author is a black belt means absolutely _nothing_ with regards to being able to teach self-defense. Also, the comment about questioning "rapists and date rapists in prison" doesn't sit right with me---among other things, because I work in a maximum security prison, and you know, just walking in and questioning people like that doesn't happen. Prisons don't mark a difference between rapists and date rapists, nor is that info available to the public, without checking the court records on each person. Similarly speaking, any of the sexual offenders I've talked to (and scarily enough, I talk to a hundred or so per day, though normally not about their crimes) would ever call themselves a date rapist. So how, pray tell, would anyone get this information? how would one know the difference? > The #1 thing men look for in a potential victim is hairstyle. They are > most likely to go after a woman with a ponytail, bun, braid or other > hairstyle that can easily be grabbed. They are also likely to go after a > woman with long hair. Women with short hair are not common targets. This is nonsense. This whole post contains information that mostly talks about stranger assaults, and in terms of sexual assaults on women, stranger assaults are not at all common, compared to acquaintance assaults. Indeed, long hair gives an attacker a control handle. However, I've _NEVER_ heard it given as a main qualifier in terms of choice. Or as a qualifier at all. > The second thing men look for is clothing. They will look for a woman > who's clothing is easy to remove quickly. The #1 outfit they look for is > overalls because many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing and on > overalls the straps can be easily cut. This is just stupid. Carry scissors around? Give me a break. And again, this sort of commentary is in regards to "stranger danger" as opposed to the MUCH more common setup of date rape and acquaintance assault. > They also look for women on their cell phone, searching through their > purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off guard > and can be easily overpowered. Yes and no. Indeed, any predator will look for victims that are not paying attention to their surroundings. This is obvious. And yes, in a stranger situation, a person is much more likely to be hurt badly if they weren't paying attention in the first place. However, this phrasing all ignores what really happens most of the time, which is acquaintance assaults, in which the attacker has the victims full attention, has already gone through a serious interview process to determine the victim's reactions and boundries, and in general, already has the victim in some isolated place such as their home. > The time of day men are most likely to attack and rape a woman is in the > early morning, between 5 and 8:30 a.m. I'd LOVE to hear where this factiod came from. > The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store > parking lots. Number two is office-parking lots/garages. Number three is > public restrooms. Not even close. The number one place women are sexually assaulted is in their home, or in his home. The above quote may be true for stranger situations (a tiny subset of all sexual assaults) but as I haven't seen any justification for any of the facts thus far, I'm not inclined to believe this either without supporting data. > The thing about these men is that they are looking to grab a woman and > quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry > about getting caught. In stranger situations, perhaps. The thing that bothers me most about this is it does a double duty: Wildly hyping "stranger danger" attackers gets people frightened for very little reason (of course, it DOES make them take classes like the author teaches) and makes people _not_ pay attention to the situations in which sexual assaults really occur. Yes, stranger assaults occur. But if you keep your eyes open and your head up, and act with some common sense, you have a much larger chance of getting struck by lightening. However, many people don't want to think about acquaintance attacks, don't believe it could happen to them, and don't want to think that "that nice guy I just met" might do something like that. Which is why many of the people who join self-defense courses either 1)are terified of a stranger attack, based on hype, or 2)have already been attacked, normally by a known person, and want to make sure it will never happen again. > Only 2% said they carried weapons because rape > carries a 3-5 year sentence but rape with a weapon is 15-20 years. I've heard differing opinions on this. > If you > put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged because it only > takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't > worth it because it will be time-consuming. Less than that---2 minutes of solid struggle is a LONG time. Studies have shown that any form of resistance decreases the chances of an assault being completed. ANY. Shouting, fighting,using a weapon, etc. Now, obviously different styles of resistance are more effective than others---but resisting _at all_ decreases the chances of a completed assault measureably. The downside: in the few cases where the assault proceeded against the resistance, and was completed, the victim was hurt much worse. The short form of the upside: it you resist, your chances of being raped drop sharply. > These men said they would not pick on women who have umbrellas, or > other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands. An umbrella? You have to be kidding. Again, I wonder where they got this info. > Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the > attacker to use them as a weapon. So, the idea is to convince these guys > you're not worth it. Mm. > Several defense mechanisms he taught us are: > > * If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with > you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a > question, like what time is it, or make general small talk, I can't > believe it is so cold out here, we're in for a bad winter. Now you've seen > their face and could identify them in a lineup, you lose appeal as a target. Unfortunately, this actually plays into their hands. In almost every single case, there is an interview process that goes on between the predator and the victim. That "small talk" gives the predator a chance to assess you, your reactions, and your boundries and how dedicated you are to holding them. > * If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you > and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists this man talked to said > they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be > afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target. If you > carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries > it with him wherever he goes,) yelling I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY and holding it > out will be a deterrent. If someone wants the pepper spray spiel, email me privately, and I'll go off on that. Short form, though: Pepper spray is very effective for its purpose within a narrow range of situations. I'll note its purpose isn't to stop an attacker like many people think. Outside of that range, it goes from useless to downright detrimental. > * If someone grabs you, you can't beat him or her with strength but you > can by outsmarting him or her. If they grab your wrist, pull your wrist > back so your hand is in waving position (palm facing forward) and twist it > toward > yourself and pull your arm away. It is hard to hold onto wrist bones that > are moving in that way. They stumble toward you and you stumble back, so > you can use that momentum to bring the same out and backhand them > with your knuckles in the forehead, nose or teeth. ...thus making sure your knuckles break so that you can't use your hand. Why in the world would you backfist someone's forehead? Or teeth? Yes, wrist releases work, but a wrist release isn't a viable succesful self-defense tactic in the same way that a outside block isn't a good way to win tournaments. > * If you are grabbed around the waist from behind, pinch the attacker > either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner > thigh HARD. One woman in a class this guy taught told him she used the > underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset > she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands - the guy needed > stitches. Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand > it; it hurts. Indeed, it does. And it can work well to distract an opponent. Thats about it, though. It is a start, but by itself, it won't keep you safe. > * After the initial hit, always go for the groin. I know from a > particularly unfortunate experience that if you slap a guy's balls (sorry > to be graphic) it is extremely painful. You might think that you'll piss > the guy off and make him want to hurt you more, but the thing these > rapists told our instructor is that they want a woman who will not cause a > lot of trouble. Start causing trouble, and he's out of there. In a stranger situation, maybe. In an acquaintance situation, where you are in his house or your house, with no one else around and no one with earshot? Doesn't work that way. You need to do enough so that you have time to get to some place safe. Slapping someone in the groin will NOT give you enough time to get your keys, get outside, start the car, and drive off. I'll note that "groin as a second target" is a good idea, IMO---but it isn't the end of things. > * When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and > bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on > them as possible. The instructor did it to me without using much pressure, > and ended up on my knees and both knuckles cracked audibly. Again, little things that can work well---but minor tricks don't keep you safe. Similarly, it is a lot harder grab someone's fingers that you might think, and after that, a lot harder to break them vs someone who is trying to actually hurt you. > Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your > surroundings, take someone with you if you can and if you see any odd > behavior, don't dismiss it, and go with your instincts. You may feel a > little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was > trouble. Very true. About the only part I liked. What it seemed like was that a martial artist wanted to get some people in clas, so he set up a "stranger danger" letter to worry people, and get them interested. He did a tiny bit of research in terms of what he thought self-defense was about (which wasn't correct) then taught a couple of simple once-off techniques to "combat" these dangerous situations. I'll note this happens a lot. And I detest it, since it _doesn't_ teach self-defense. It doesn't show how to deal with common situations, how to recognize predators, how to deal with the interview process, nor does it give a realistic picture of what really happens. And that is the SHORT form of what I detest about it. :) Okay, I'm done now, I'll step off my soapbox. Sorry about the long post, folks. I do want to say again that NONE of this post is directed at either Anne or Donnla---they were both trying to help, and passing along information they thought would be helpful to people. I wish more people thought along those lines. My comments are directed to the person who originally wrote this nonsense, and did serious damage towards the dissemination of actual important information about how self-defense for women works, and what it is about. Thomas (No, this topic didn't press any buttons for me. Not at all. :) Nebraska Hapkido Association ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:51:13 PST Subject: eskrima: Pak Victor deThouars Workshop in Santa Cruz - Feb. 3 Forwarding. Ray ------------------------------------------------------------ Greetings to All, We are pleased to announce an upcoming Silat Serak workshop: With Pak Victor deThouars Saturday, Feb. 3, 2001 9am - Noon (Session A) 2pm - 5pm (Session B) At the VDT Academy 1054A 41st Ave. Santa Cruz, CA 95062 (Take Highway 1 to 41st Ave., Capitola Exit, turn toward the ocean, pass the Capitola Mall and the Best Western, go over the railroad tracks It's in a two-tone brown building adjacent to Ocean Chevrolet, on the left.) Price will be: $35.00 per person, per session or $55.00 per person for both sessions Paul and Jenny Silva will be hosting a barbeque near by, after the event. Tjabang members are free, and we are asking a $10.00 donation from non-members. A 10% discount will apply to all those who remit funds that we receive before Feb. 1. Please indicate which session(s) you will be attending. Space is limited. RSVP ASAP! Please make checks payable to VDT Academy. Thanks, and hope to see you here! Mike Roberto VDT Academy ------------------------------ From: T2J2M2@cs.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:19:06 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #31"Woman's self-defence" As someone who works in a level 4 prison (Close custody, 1 level short of max security) I find it hard to believe that any state prison system would let anybody in to talk with the inmates for a personal research project. The FBI has the Behavior Science Unit which can do that, but they have a 7 step procedure they follow before they talk with a convict. Many states have limits on how many visits they can have per month, Michigan has 4-6 visits. They take place in the visiting room, with all the other visits taking place. I doubt very much that they would freely talk about their crime to a total stranger in front of other total strangers and officers in the room. I would also like to know what academic credentials this black belt has, what protocols he used in his interviews, what research he did about the individual crimes and convicts before the interview started (Very important for a BS detector). Just going through the facts in 1 case can take hours. Only 2% carried weapons? That seems low and can be easily verified. My understanding is that 30-50% carried a weapon, normally a knife. What is this instructors day job? There are so many 3rd, 4th, 5th degree black belts out there it is amazing. Any one with some experience with the martial arts know that they are a dime a dozen, so they won't be that impressed. Many instructors, shall we say, pad there resumes a bit for a financial edge. They like to attack women with buns or ponytails? That sounds stupid to me. A preference for coveralls? Just how many times have you seen a woman where that? Woman with short hair are safe? I would like to see the scientific study which backs this up. Generally speaking, convicts attack the weak, the sheep, the outnumbered, the unaware, and the unprepared. According the book,"safe in the City" by Macyoung and Pfouts, hostility begets hostility. Women who are hostile towards men to begin with are more likely to be attacked. Not studied yet, but it seems to make some sense. For a better view on sex offenders, read Roy Hazelwood's book, "The Evil that men do." It is a much better researched study the that black belt woman's self-defense instructor. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:41:55 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #32 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.