From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #44 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 24 Jan 2001 Vol 08 : Num 044 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 eskrima: Re: Raising the hand/ women & men in SD eskrima: Women and Men in Defense eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Badger Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:08:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 Good point on the hand raising by Micael Koblic about the female protection instinct. I might add, what if you rephrased your question: 'how many women would kill an attacker to protect their baby/child?' ...or that 'was threatening their baby or children with harm?' I bet you'd get near 100% then! In fact, I near guarantee it. In fact I'd bet you'd get growling along with it. I know when I want an extra 'umph' in my training visualization, I imagine that the opponent or bag or kick pad is trying to hurt my kid. FWIW. - -B ___ baj7dvirginia[dot]edu Arnis Lastra, Arnis Lanada ------------------------------ From: "Martin Diggins" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:36:09 -0000 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 T2J2M2 said: > More important, no one has been able to define qui, no one has been able to >measure qui. No medical instrument that I have seen has ever saw a meridian >before. They are not on a CAT scan, an MRI, x-ray, ultrasound, or stress >test. You can only feel it. You can cut into a qui meridian with a surgeon's >scalpel (so long as there is no nerve there) and not suffer damage. If qui >acuity existed, you would think that someone would have seen something by now. > What I believe passes for qui is a combination of bio-electric, >bio-chemical, and bio-mechanical (technique) processes with some >self-hypnosis thorn in. That is not mystical. I would say that there comes a point in most martial arts where the known (western) laws of physics and biology no longer explain the things that those gifted few who have mastered their art can achieve. This may be called chi or ki or qui or whatever - the name seem less important than the realisation that there is more to these things than "science" can yet explain. Unfortunately, such unmeasurable phenomena are open to being invoked dishonestly by those who seek to give ordinary biomechanical activities a mystical aura to attract or impress others. Caveat emptor etc... Regards, Martin ------------------------------ From: Scytale Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:28:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 I'm no grappling expert either, but what I think Chad is trying to get across is this: In a rape situation, the aggressor usually *wants* to end up in your guard. Of course your first objective is not to let him get there! But why not train the guard for the possibility that he does? That seems better to me than thinking, "Ah, if I get there I'm dead anyway, so why bother training it." As a beginner with grappling I can be the first to say that someone with training can manipulate you like a child on the ground even if you have stand-up fighting experience. As for incidental items in the environment (bottles, lamps, etc), the defender should be just as able to use them against the aggressor. In fact, if the environment is more familiar to the defender (possible in date rape) then she might be at an advantage due to her knowledge of the incidental items available. Again, I'm far from an expert. These are just my thoughts. Bryan Creel >From: Patrick Davies >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:13:30 -0000 >Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #42 > >And im with you there on the benefits of conditioning. However the broken >bottles/bricks/knifes/used condoms was to suggest that anything could be >there - even a table lamp, shoe or cup of coffee. These can be used against >someone using the guard with a 100lb weight difference easily. > >The main thing with the guard is that it's a good place to be when all >things are equal but when I saw Eric Paulson sprint action (pumping knees) >while in someone's guard it brought tears to my eyes! ; ) The question and >thought process is the relevant thing here not whats right or wrong because >we have to adapt to each area of circumstances. The rape defence/street >fight mentality is different to long term endurance rolling and that's been >covered by others on the list. My point is that the initial shock of >confrontation is the determining factor of how the result is to be >determined. Im sure you train for that so please don't take it as critism >but you don't train for the 100 metres by running marathons. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:14:09 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #43 Drool, This sound so cool > Advanced Sniper School > > From: 07-May-01 > To: 11-May-01 > Register for class by: 27-Apr-2001 > Price: $300.00 > Max Students Allowed: 20 > Required Equipment: Sniper grade rifle, scope, bipod, 300 rounds of match > grade ammunition, tactical callout gear. > Host Hotel: Kingsley Field Billeting > Hotel Phone: Det. Striefel 541-883-5336 > Distance To Event: On site > Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon > Contact Name: Detective Tony Striefel > Contact Email: kfpd@cvc.net > Contact Phone: (541)883-5336 > City: Klamath Falls > State: Oregon > Description: Snipercraft, Inc. will be instructing a basic sniper school > during the listed dates. $300.00 tuition includes course and lodging. > > > ------------------------------ > > From: "Michael Koblic" > Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:34:41 -0800 > Subject: eskrima: Hands up who would kill > > "When I ask that question to a room full of men, I get about a 95% hand > raise... most often all raise their hands. They wouldn't hesitate. When I > ask this to a room full of women, I get a varying response... on a rare > ocassion I get 75% raising their hand. Most of the time I get 40-50% > raising > their hand. Sometimes I get ONE hand in the whole class. Most who do raise > their hands do so tentatively. *ONCE* in 6 years of training did I get an > entire class of women who raised their hand. > > In your opinion, why is this? (I am not setting you up for anything here - > I > really would like to know your view on this)." > > An excellent question to which I can only guess the answer. Rather than > giving the usual cliches about nurturing natures of women etc. I would > suggest that the difference is in expectations and self image. Men are > *expected* to be ready to kill, women are not. > > Then there is a big difference in what one says and what one does: I guess I > would raise my hand in your class - I would like to believe that I have that > capability. Yet my long experience teaches me that one does not *know* > unless one has done it. Which I have not. > > I wonder how many of the men who raise their hands would actually deliver on > their assertions... > > Mike Koblic, > Quesnel BC Here's my 2 pence worth as some one who spent some time (in the Brit army) training men and women to shoot people at close range in the early eighties. Please bare in mind that these people had to pass a selection test before they got on the small arms course. I found that generally men were more able to switch to lethal force (slot someone) than the woman, however I found that the answer was simply more rounds down the range. This seemed to cure any problems which mainly seemed to be mental problems i.e coordinating aggression/self belief etc. Its very hard (read a mine field) to generalise about this issue but I found that one of my female students who put three bullets in to some one, killing them, seemed to deal with the after mouth very well i.e. no guilt trip etc. As a side note I taught (with others) a mixed sex small arms course to some people in the Canadian army in 85 (based at a camp in Borden (sp) in Ontario). Early on, I was singled out as possibly being a chauvinist by the officer in charge. This came up over a drink in the mess. Now I may have been a bit of a chauvinist but I treated everyone on the course the same. Which had some girls in tears. However at the end of the course (just to confound my critics) I was voted best instructor and there was more girls voting that boys. This may not mean to much when you start talking training civilians instead of military personnel. A couple of years a go I saw a program on weapons training in the US on I belief a company called gun site or something like that. It looked really good with people being pushed over on to their backs and drawing and firing at their targets from the ground etc. They had all sorts of good drills. It would be interesting to find out what they had to say about training women/men etc Regards Richard Killick ------------------------------ From: "Roaring Girl" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:12:26 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: Raising the hand/ women & men in SD Meghan asks: >I ask the women "How many of you here will, if it is your only chance for >survival, be able to kill your attacker?" This is assuming of course, that everything has been done to *not be in the situation in the first place*, including avoiding dangerous or at-risk lifestyles, running away, giving the guy your wallet (if all they want is money) etc. etc...? just checking. >When I ask that question to a room full of men, I get about a 95% hand >raise... most often all raise their hands. They wouldn't hesitate. When I >ask this to a room full of women, I get a varying response... on a rare >ocassion I get 75% raising their hand. Most of the time I get 40-50% raising >their hand. Sometimes I get ONE hand in the whole class. Most who do >raise their hands do so tentatively. *ONCE* in 6 years of training did I get >an entire class of women who raised their hand. >In your opinion, why is this? (I am not setting you up for anything here - I >really would like to know your view on this). I like to think that the 95% for men is (as I think Jon stated in V8 #43), simply one of those things guys do (no offense! :) in front of other guys...I'd hate to think that a bunch of men intelligent enough to know that self-defense is a human issue, not just female issue, are dumb enough to think that killing is "cool", even in self-defense... I think the disparity in those willing to *say* (in a safe, controlled environment where it is only a discussion topic) they would kill has to do with two things: 1. It is still socially more accepted, if not acceptable, for men to be physically violent i.e. hit things, than it is for women. A prime example is in the MA - a majority of the girls who come to check out the club are looking for Tae-bo style "kickboxing" - which is *not* self-defense, nor even a sport art, which at least does involve some contact etc. This is not to denigrate any of these things; but the reality is (i've had women *and* men say this to me) "gosh, what you're doing is really violent, isn't it?" , with the connotation that it's not really something a *girl* should be doing. And that's only when they see me hitting the heavy-bags or sparring...imagine if they saw some of the knife disarms, or stick disarms, jointlocks and takedowns? :D So it's okay for me to do aerobics that incorporate some punches & kicks, as long as I'm not really hitting things (or people). So guys can say they would kill someone to defend themselves/their family, because even if it's politically incorrect, there is still a basic atavistic understanding that that's "the man's job". Similarly, it's "the woman's job" to run and hide, or whatever. And before anyone makes the mistake of thinking that I'm some sort of sexist oinker, I'm not! Be honest with yourselves - the attitude is *still out there* in the real world! Perhaps women need different motivation than men do...I bet if you asked the mothers if they would kill to protect their children, you would get _all hands up_. Of course, fathers will do it as well...but in my experience women have a tendency to consider themselves less worth defending. Chew on *that*. 2. No one, as far as I know,(unless they've been there...repeatedly!) can accurately predict what they will do in a life-or-death situation. It's easy to say, in a seminar, "oh I'd just do this, then that etc. etc. and be the super ninja victorious winner..." . Confronted with the actual imminence of your death or another's, however, all bets are off. You may freeze up. You may leap for the other's throat, forgetting all weapons, plans, or even training. You may negotiate. You may sacrifice yourself to save another, you may kill to save another. I've never been there, and hope and pray to never EVER have to. But I'm not so foolish as to think I know what I would do. I might be able, physically, to kill an attacker...but mentally? emotionally? I'll never know unless I have to. So I hope I'll never know. 2c worth, cheers, jocelyne - Roaring Girl ps. hey Johnaleen, Yeah Sister!!! :) ------------------------------ From: TaoArt@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:00:58 EST Subject: eskrima: Women and Men in Defense Jon writes: << Would a better question be - How many people in this room value themselves as a person enough to do what is required to NOT become a victim. >> This is the next part of the questioning that we cover. It does eventually come down to this: Who is more important, you or the attacker? And what is stunning is how many women vs men cannot say the words "I am more important.". And Mike writes: <> Self Image and Expectations are exactly it, Mike. Most women face a *very* different upbringing than most men. The issues that this creates are sometimes ever-so-subtle, and yet incredibly pervasive. My biggest hurdle in our self defense courses isn't teaching the women how to fight back. It isn't teaching them to fight for the safety of their children (only met one women in 6 years who claimed she couldn't even do that)... it is teaching them that they have a *right* to fight back for *themselves*... that they *can* have the skill to hurt a man... and to counter all of the zillions of conditioning habits that have been ingrained upon them since they were born. IE: Most women will smile when they are nervous. To some guy who is hitting on her, this message seems to be "she likes me"... while inside her mind she is silently screaming "why won't he leave me alone??". Because many women have been taught to be submissive when faced with conflict (eg ask him to leave you alone, don't command him) much of our class is dedicated to roleplaying scenarios where the women have to force themselves to be assertive (note: NOT aggressive). This is not to say that we don't get the fireheaded teenager who is ready to cram her boot up the backside of the attacker - with these few, our goal is to temper them so that they don't escalate the situation. I had one woman who, everytime she was confronted by an aggressive attacker, she would say "F*ck You, Mate!". Our training for her is more along the lines of how we train most men. I'm not going to make the assumption that all men are one way and all women are another. That's just plain stupid. But I have noticed that there *are* trends according to gender. And most women require a very different class format than most men. Again, this is all based in my own experience through teaching my courses. Meghan Gardner Guard Up, Inc. www.GuardUp.com "Always carry love in your heart and a knife in your pocket." me ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:33:39 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #44 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.