From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #91 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 17 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 091 In this issue: eskrima: Certification? Who cares? eskrima: charater counts! eskrima: Re: Live blade training eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Book=The Secrets of Arnis eskrima: Live Blades and Major Owieeees Re: eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Live blades ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "steven drape" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:24:09 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Certification? Who cares? I know nothing about the Dr. Gyi issue, but I'd like to add my .02 worth on the credentials thread. Years ago, I worked with a guy who had a small commercial school. He had quit his job and was really trying to make a living from the martial arts. He was an excellent martial artist, and he lived and breathed training- every day for hours and hours. He was a far better martial artist than most guys will ever be. Unfortunately for him, even though he had spent many years with his teacher (in a Chinese style), he had never received any sort of paper. I guess the old man hadn't felt it necessary. His school took many years to become successful, and the reason I got involved was because I do have certificates, and he felt that would get more "butts in the seats". Finally, when the seminar circiut became common, he was able to get some certificates and his enrollment took off. Today he has a successful school. The point of all that is that certification is very important if you want to run a commercial school. We all know the statistics about how many start and then quit, and you need a constant influx of new bodies to maintain a viable business. If you have no certificates, the average (ignorant of martial arts) consumer will doubt you, never mind your ability. That is just the way it is, if you want to run a commercial school. That said, I would say that it is the more experienced people who will try to learn from someone without certification, because we can see that there is something there worth learning. I have never once seen, or asked to see, or even thought about asking to see, my Filipino teachers' certificates. I doubt that some even have any, yet when I first met them, I knew within the first minute or two that they were worth training with. A beginner must depend on the paper, because he has no other background knowledge to allow him to make an informed decision. If we want to start demanding provable credentials, then look out- here comes government intervention and regulation. If you are a great martial artist, other experienced martial artists will recognize that and probably won't care about anything you have said- I've heard some really outrageous things come out of the mouth of a couple of my teachers- they just want to train. They probably have their own credentials from somewhere else anyway. If the students are not experienced, 98% are going to quit anyway, so who cares? Is it that someone without credentials is going to make some money? God forbid! If we were to persecute every teacher who has lied about his background, we would have very few teachers to learn from. What's the old saying about the Korean airplane dan rankings? Get on the plane in Korea as a 1st dan and get off in the US as an 8th dan. How many stories of the "undefeated death match champion" have we heard in the FMA? As for the veterans complaining, well I'm a Vietnam vet, and what do I care if someone else lies about his own experience? It doesn't affect me in any way. I can also tell you that nearly every vet (including me!) I've ever spoken to has war stories that are much more "exciting" than what really happened. Go to an expat bar in Thailand or the Philippines and listen to the guys drinking there. It's amazing how many superheros there really are in the world! This went on longer than I planned, but I guess what I'm really saying is- get over it. Learn if you want to learn, and if credentials are important to you, go find a guy who has them. Steve - -- _______________________________________________ FREE Internet Email for the Martial Arts! Kung Fu Online http://www.kungfuonline.com Powered by Instant Portal ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:34:07 -0800 Subject: eskrima: charater counts! > >Doc Fung wrote... >not credential. Each person has to evaluate the character for themselves.> > >Yeah Doc, but when you lie about your credentials it says something about >your character doesnt it? > >A. Hawkins Yes it does. But you have to be able to confirm the lie. And whose lie is it anyways. Republicans think Dems want to count until they get the result they want. Democrats think the the Reps stole the election. The voting cards are in but no one can decide what is a valid vote. So what is the answer? Did the X-pres have sex with Lewinsky or didn't he? His little man didn't go spelunking according to his own words but his cigar did the talking. So what is the answer. DNA says OJ did it but the glove don't fit so you must aquit. So what is the answer? Lies are often not so clear cut. YOU still must judge character. Sorry you have to do you own work and figure it out. Credentialed and not lyin' Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: MdlAgdLftr@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:04:47 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Live blade training In a message dated 2/16/01 7:36:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << How many of ya'll out there in ED-land have done live blade training? If you have, was anyone cut (more than a lite scratch)? Just curious... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> Hi all, Yes, we do use live blades in our sensitivity drills. The lessons we have learned from using real knives is one that cannot be duplicated any other way. I defer here to a training session I had with a friend who is a 7th dan in karate...we were doing a little comparison between arts, karate and eskrima, and he wanted to train "knife disarms." He had me feed with a wooden training dagger I have, and effected a very nice, precise, and fluid disarm. I asked him if he felt confident with the methodology he used, and he replied, "Sure." I then went over to my stick bag, retrieved my hunting knife that is always tucked away there, and said, "OK, now do the same disarm." He declined. Once you are facing a live blade, all but the most basic of technique goes right out the window, and the student will revert to what is practical rather than what is simply esoteric. I once was teaching a student knife drills, and again, was using a wooden dagger. He was able to flow from one disarm or locking technique to another without pause. I then picked up my balisong (a weehawk blade, sharp on both edges) and told him to continue. He immediately abandoned the disarms, and went right to knee/shin kicks and eye gouges, and his body mechanics/angling changed completely, tightening up, and using his angling to close and control. The element of reality must be an integral part of everything you do, every way you train, or you are seriously shortchanging yourself, and cheating anyone you are teaching. We have had, to date, no injuries...if it's for real, no one is dozing through training, their attention is focused like a laser beam, and serious, real, and truly meaningful training can occur. After developing sensitivity in knife tapping with a live blade, once you return to training daggers for sparring, a new sense of realism is instilled and carried over. Body mechanics are fluid and concise, sensitivity is heightened, and the student learns what is practical and what is just for show, and learns the difference in a hurry. Kim Satterfield ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:47:18 EST Subject: eskrima: Live Blade training In a message dated 2/16/01 10:33:08 PM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << However what if your killing move neither kills nor renders them unconscious? Then it is not a killing move is it? And if I survive, my next fight is with the martial arts "master" who sold me a bill of goods. .>In the heat of an adrenaline rush I've seen and/or personally experienced situations where what one would typically think was a killing move did nothing more than PO the person even more. I'm not talking about dim mak, punching through his armour or any of the hundreds other martial arts "killing move" myths I have heard over the years. Nor am I talking about just inflicting pain. I have never seen anyone get up and chase someone with a snapped neck or a crushed throat. And if he can, that's what I get for getting in a knife fight with the undead. >And this is even wrt the use of firearms. As just one (extreme) example think Platt & Matix and their FBI encounter in Miami back in '86. >> Shot placement...it's a wonderful thing. So is sitting down and having a read of Marshall and Snow's Handgun Stopping power. However, I am also a real big proponent of something I learned a long time ago..."At point blank range with a shotgun, you don't have to check to see if he's dead" (not necessarily true, I know of three guys who were hit in the chest with shotgun blasts point blank and lived. However, they all shared two things. They were all wearing armour and they were all standing right next to a medic when hit). However one thing I really like about adrenaline rushes is that fine motor nerve control goes out the window and all you are really left with are gross motions. Ya know, them gross motions are REAL powerful and real effective if you train to use them instead of trying to fight against them. However all of this begs the question: What makes you think I am going to stand around and fight the guy? Much less stand around and admire my handiwork? "Hey guys look what I just did, isn't that impressive?" That leaves me in range if something goes wrong. To say nothing about what his friends can do. Color me gone folks. You see the door? You see my ass heading through it? If anyone is going to be standing there admiring my handywork it is going to be his buddies...because I ain't there no more. Back up, back up and more back up...you never rely on just one thing to do your work for you. Even if I just hurt the guy seriously, he now has to come out of attack mode and shift into chase mode because I am doing the flat foot floogie down the street. How long can someone run in that condition before his body says "excuse me, something is seriously wrong here..."? It's hard to describe over the internet, come on down to LA and I'll show you what I mean. ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Book=The Secrets of Arnis While in Cebu, PI, one of the eskrima players gave me a book entitled, "The Secrets of Arnis", by Edgar G. Sulite. Apparently, this book is out of print ? Good content, re: a. History b. Techniques c. Advanced Techniques d. Special Secrets Training e. Practical Self Defense f. Balisong g. The Masters of Arnis h. Different Masters of Arnis in the Philippines. i. Conclusion If readers here are familiar with this book could you provide comparisons to the other books I obtained in the Philippines, re: - - Doce Pares, GM Cacoy Canete - - The Practical Art of Eskrima, GM Presas - - Modern Arnis, GM Presas Additionally, any readers familiar with GM Canete's video available in the U.S. Comments (preferred privately). Thanks, Ken McDonough P.S. While in Cebu I met various artists who will do charcoal, pastel, and oil paintings of you or family members. You need to submit a picture. I am curious on whether individuals are interested in this opportunity. If so email me privately. Substantial discounts versus what you would pay in the U.S. Artist(s) is the number one charcoal practitioner in Cebu. Quality unsurpassed. Thanks again. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: John Cipkar Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:41:10 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Live Blades and Major Owieeees Only the names have been changed to protect the embarrassed: Guro A was working a tap and counter drill with a live blade. Suddenly he began leaking. Profusely! His snake had been defanged. No, I didn't do it. An ambulance ride, surgery and around 30 stitches later, he was patched up. If I remember correctly, his missed about six weeks of work. Guro B was recently working with his new gunting knife, after becoming very comfortable in practice with the companion trainer knife. A tap on his thigh to open the live blade, resulted in 9 stitches. Thank God for him and his family he didn't loose any time from work. Guro A and B are both close friends, and I have done live blade training with both. Both are extremely talented and conscientious practitioners in the arts. However, accidents just happen, even when you are operating at a higher level of awareness with live blades. I respect the need to work with a blade you intend to carry for defense. I do so regularly to build a feel and familiarity with the knives I carry. Failing to train with your defensive weapons, whatever they are is outright stupid. Having said that, it is only fair to relate, that when I had my MA school open, all students trained with a wooden punal or baraw for safety. Advanced students in private sessions, were allowed to use a steel training blade available from the Visayan Legacy folks at Bandalan Doce Pares to begin to understand the feel of a live blade. Any more and my already outrageous liability insurance for a JKDFMA school would have been canceled. I guess the answer is to train, very carefully, and only with people you can entrust with your life and well being. Respest and Regards, Sarge ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:04:05 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Live Blade training > << However what if your killing move neither kills nor renders them > unconscious? > > Then it is not a killing move is it? And this is the problem IMHO, as we have seen in any number of examples of killing moves... However they did not yet realize they were dead and had just enough time to do the same to someone else. We've seen too many people focused on getting in their kill shots only to get killed in the process. I'd rather run away, and am sure you would, too. Short of that take the cut on the arms instead of the belly or neck or etc and then run away. Or -try- to control the blade arm, perhaps -try- to break it off, and then run away. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:33:50 PST Subject: eskrima: Live blades > Guro B was recently working with his new gunting knife, after becoming > very comfortable in practice with the companion trainer knife. Was this the Bram Frank designed folder, the Gunting? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #91 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.