From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 18 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 093 In this issue: eskrima: Live blades eskrima: Bram Frank and the Spyderco Gunting eskrima: re rick tucci tapes eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Contacting Danny Inosanto Re: eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Re: Bram Frank eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #92 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #92 eskrima: Re: Bram Frank eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #88 Re: eskrima: Re: Bram Frank eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:14:38 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Live blades Similarly as described in other posts, I too have either personally seen or have had guros recount to me many accidents of live blade training. I will not even count the number of my own near misses--blade falling on ground and almost impaling my foot, blade sticking to wood and almost severing several fingers, blade almost cutting my own live hand because of mis-timing, etc. Such are the perils of live blade training. Yes, I have live blade sessions in class, but I have long realized the difference between realistic yet safe (a contradiction in terms?) live blade training and "extreme" live blade training. As in most things in life, virtue lies in the middle. On one hand, no live blade training is unrealistic, unimaginative and plain boring. On the other hand, unarmored free style live blade sparring would be irresponsible, counterproductive (The whole purpose of the exercise was not to die by a knife wound, remember?), probably unlawful and just plain stupid. (It might make for a great spectacle, though, to rival "Gladiator." I just hope you collected enough admission fees or video rights to pay for either your surgery, funeral or lawyer's fees.) You also have to make a distinction between solo drills and training with a partner. There are numerous solo drills you can do (just like sticks)--solo in front of a mirror, against a wooden dummy , or the FMA version thereof; against a bare wooden plank or pole (just like a tree trunk, but please do not attack a live tree, unless you live in a banana or papaya plantation in the Philippines); versus a heavily padded wooden plank or pole (see how fast you can cover the distance, how accurately you can hit a designated target or spot, and how deep you can slice that padding using your personal carry). Caution : Even such drills are not completely safe. If you have done similar drills, you know dummies and trees sometimes fight back. Translation: Sometimes you get hurt with your own weapon. As for partner training, the governing factors are what level are you and your partner in, and I guess how much of a death wish either one of you has. I personally have done only structured drills with my guro, and with a couple of my advanced students, meaning I knew what he was going to do and he knew what I was going to do. Call me a wuss, but anything past that point, chances are you will be adding to tales of live blade training accidents. ------------------------------ From: "Mike Casto" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:19:58 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Bram Frank and the Spyderco Gunting Well, I don't know much about Bram. I've had some e-mail correspondence with him and he seems like a nice enough guy. I do own one of the Guntings, though ... and love it. It's a very nicely designed blade. My only complaint about it is that I can't wear it comfortably on jeans or slacks (this probably has as much to do with my spare tire as with the blade :-) However, I can wear it perfectly comfortably on sweats or shorts ... and since I almost always wear sweats or shorts, it's not really an issue for me :-) As for opening it on your leg and cutting yourself ... it'll definitely do it. I've not done that ... but I came really close once and realized it could happen. This can be a good thing. You see, the blade is designed so that it is possible to open it on the opponent. I can safely open it by tapping it on my wrist ... but if anything thicker than my wrist is used, the blade penetrates and starts cutting before it gets opened. Which means, if I do this on a bad guy's arm (a classic "gunting") and don't hold the blade shut, then the blade will open and cut his tricep (and possibly his brachial artery). This isn't necessarily a bad thing :-) However, it's not something you want to happen on yourself or a friend. So whenever someone wants to look at the blade, that is the first thing I tell them about :-) Mike ------------------------------ From: Gerald Boggs Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:27:46 -0800 Subject: eskrima: re rick tucci tapes focused on getting in their kill shots only to get killed in the process. I'm going to split hairs here for a second... I have seen a whole lot of people go on about what I think you are talking about and I just have a few little problems with it. Number one, I have seen people do "killing moves" with only enough force to rock the guy's head. Often all they use is arm strength and uncommitted actions. Damn Sam, hitting like that...well, there's gonna be a lot of dead bugs, but not too many dead humans. Number two, in order to generate enough force for a killing move, you kinda gotta be in a position where by extension, you have momentary control, not of his arm, but of him. If on the other hand you are hanging back you can't generate the force to effectively end his attack. Catch-22 that. Number three, simply getting into position to do a killing move does not constitute doing it. In fact, way too many people spend way too much time getting ready to do it, rather than doing it. It's all prep work. In the mean time, while you are getting ready for your killer move, the guy is slicing and dicing. Number four, in case you haven't ever had someone come at you with a knife, such a person is usually in the middle of a murderous rage, not a combat mindset. The two are not necessarily synonymous. In other words, such a person is really paying attention to what he is going to do to you and suddenly having your elbow smash into his throat tends to surprise him. Perhaps enough Number five, I can't tell you how many times I have had so-called knife fighters tell me that I have to "expect to get cut." So where is this in contradiction with that much beloved maxim? Number six. Related to number five. Instead of engaging in a course of action that might effectively end the threat, "players" instead engage in a course of action that *if* it happens it can have the desired effect of controlling the knife arm and allowing for safe entry. But because of speed, momentum and ambush and countless other hairball factors of real fighting, it has at BEST a 25% chance of success. Bottomline is it boils down to intent. A guy who intends to kill you has to be met with an equal intent to toast him BEFORE he toasts you. If you don't have that intent, he is going to slice you up. That intent is going to seriously alter what you do. If you don't train with that intent, odds are against you finding it in the heat of the moment. Intent isn't what you think it is when training in the dojo, it is a commitment to yourself to survive, whatever the cost. >I'd rather run away, and am sure you would, too. This is what bothers me with a lot of folks talking about "having" to fight the guy. I'm running, even if I have to run over the guy with the knife. >Short of that take the cut on the arms instead of the belly or neck or etc and then run away. Or -try- to >control the blade arm, perhaps -try- to break it off, and then run away. >> I'd personally rather risk everything in one move that will end it (one way or the other) than be slowly wittled to death while looking for my safe entrance. Their ain't no guarantees in a knife fight, but I'm going after the safest route and that is to end it NOW!!! That is not trying to control the arm of some guy whose trying to weedwack me. And in answer to the other question...yep, even with safety equipment, you better expect to get nicked during training if you use live blades. On the other hand kevlar arm guards are really sweet. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:17:15 EST Subject: eskrima: Contacting Danny Inosanto From Marc MacYoung Hey guys I'm trying to get in contact with Guru Dan to invite him to the knife seminar in El Segundo as my guest, but the website I have for him has gone MIA. Does anyone have a number for his academy that I can contact him and leave a message? I met him moons past when he had the school with Hawkins on Venice Blvd, but I don't know where his academy is located these days. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:27:38 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Live Blade training > Bottomline is it boils down to intent. A guy who intends to kill you has to > be met with an equal intent to toast him BEFORE he toasts you. If you don't > have that intent, he is going to slice you up. And here-in lies the problem, IMO... Adrenaline -can- change all that (not that it always will). Again, we've just seen toooo many people take the very best killing shot you and I can muster -together-, and just grin. Sure, a few mins or secs later they may feel differently, but during the exchange they may have already delivered their killing shot and we're now in the process of bleeding out. Just pointing out an inherent fallacy in the killing shot theory. Yes, I realize that most MAists accept it as fact, but not me. It is similar to the magic wand theory, if I hit them HARD in the head with my magic kamagong stick the fight is over. No, not necessarily. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:13:07 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Bram Frank Bram Frank has a 2 video set out with Paladin called "The Leading Edge" Knife work based on Filipino knife work. He was hooked up with Combat HKD for a while, but then had some sort of falling out and is no longer doing things with that organization. Ray, you could learn more from Michael Rowe on the DD, Mike has trained with him. Alain ------------------------------ From: Azpma@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:42:42 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #92 There will be a 3-day seminar in Scottsdale Arizona. GrandMaster Tony Somera of Bahala Na Escrima from Stockton Ca., will teach the "Glover Leaf." The days are March 23rd, 24th. and 25th. This is also in memory and honor of Pendakar Herman Suwanda from Pencak Silat Mande Muda, who crossed over a year ago. For information, please contact Pete Vitelli at 480-820-8432. Also attending will be Sifu Joe Purcell from Wu Wei Gung Fu. He is also an Instructor in "The Inosanto/Lacosta Systems". There will also be a field trip to Sedona Arizona. ------------------------------ From: butch@epix.net Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:03:26 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #92 >> From: Ray Terry >> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:23:02 PST >> Subject: eskrima: live blade >> >> How many of ya'll out there in ED-land have done live blade training? >> If you have, was anyone cut (more than a lite scratch)? >> >> Just curious... >> >> Ray Terry >> raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ================================= Hi All, When we were teaching our pointed and edged weapons class, we wanted to get the feel for live blades in practice. Because of the danger, we bought many cheap knives of all sizes and dulled their edges down. We got the feel for live blades but not with all of the danger involved with sharp blades. However, there was still danger of catching a thrust but that never happened as people became sharper in their defensive drills. Funny what a live blade does for practice. We did have accidents with minor cuts to the knife holding hand though. For cheap blades, check out Smokey Mountain Knife Works. Butch ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:50:40 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Bram Frank raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com, wrote response to the following: >Subject: Re: eskrima: Bram Frank > > > I recently read an article about this Gunting Folder from > Spyderco. >They also wrote about Bram Frank and had pictures > from him. I have never >heard of him before (not that this meanys > > anything) In the article they >wrote that he is a 5th Dan in a > FMA style. Does anybody know something >about him? > >Supposedly he is a 3rd degree BB under Remy Presas, soon to be 4th. >It >seems he took over the relationship with the ICHF (International >Combat >Hapkido Federation) after Remy affiliated with the ICHF and >its head, John >Pellegrini, for a year or two. He/Frank, like Remy >P., is apparently no >longer working with the ICHF. I don't know him >either, that is just what >I've picked up here and there. Guro Bram Frank, is a 5th degree Blackbelt, under Datu Shishir Inocalla. That promotion was granted after Mr. Frank, tested in the Phiippines, late last year. He also holds a 3rd degree, from Professor Remy Presas, through the International Modern Arnis Federation. Guro Frank, developed the Gunting Knife and it is now in production by Spyderco. There is both a live blade and a training drone availible. There is also a three volume instructional video set by Guro Frank, that you can get through VideoQuest (1-800-340-9664) and a website at There is also an introductory video from the same source entitled: **Spyderco: The Gunting By Bram Frank** The knife has been in production for less than a year at this point in time, but I can vouch for it in terms of meeting the "truth in advertising" test. It was designed to used **closed** most of the time. It is superior to most other folding knives, the kubaton and pocket stick for self defense usage in the closed format. The open blade is less tan 4 inches, but that is consistant with the design intent of being used closed more often than opened for self defense. Guro Frank, also has a knife self defense video set availible from Paladin Press. That video set was made before the Gunting Knife went on the market. In the Paladin series, Guro Frank, stresses something that he calls "bio-mechical cutting". Cutting the major muscle nerve sets in the extremeties, in order to incapacitate the opponent and reduce the likelihood of mortally wounding the other person. I hope that this information helps. EBrook _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:04:00 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #88 <<< How many of ya'll out there in ED-land have done live blade training? If you have, was anyone cut (more than a lite scratch)? >>> I have always done live blade training. I was exposed to it early in my training and have continued its practice to this very day. The worst cut that I have ever witnessed outside of real encounters was this guy that was doing a karenza with the instructor's kris. We all told the individual to be careful and he preceded to draw the blade and start his karenza. After a few moments someone started to notice the red drops that were being sprayed around the area. Someone called to him to stop and we then noticed that he had cut the palm of his left hand wide open. It was a pretty substantial cut and required a trip to the hospital and a number of stitches. I suspect that he cut the palm open when he drew the blade. As most know you don't wrap your hand around a wooden sheath when drawing the blade. It was a pretty good cut but the individual didn't notice it until someone else mentioned all the blood being sprayed around. Take care, Rob. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 7:50:05 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Bram Frank > The knife has been in production for less than a year at this point > in time, but I can vouch for it in terms of meeting the "truth in > advertising" test. It was designed to used **closed** most of the time. It > is superior to most other folding knives, the kubaton and > pocket stick for self defense usage in the closed format. The open > blade is less tan 4 inches, but that is consistant with the design intent of > being used closed more often than opened for self defense. As I recall the blade is less than 3" in length. Which, of course, is less that 4". :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 8:00:38 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.