From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #94 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 18 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 094 In this issue: eskrima: Kim's post Re: eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Re: Guro DAN and Inosanto academy eskrima: Spyderco Gunting eskrima: Bram Franks and "Gunting" Spyderco eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #91 eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 Re: eskrima: Bram Franks and "Gunting" Spyderco eskrima: Bram Frank Re: eskrima: Live Blade training eskrima: Shishir eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dale" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:08:37 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Kim's post Kim posted <> Well Kim... a large number of people on this list. I agree with you, however, have you forgotten the regular posts on Dr., Professor, Maha, Punong, Tuhon, Master etc.? I give it a month before another post like this comes along. How about the linguistic ramifications on weather Lapu lapu was hyphenated, (example) or the title, birth place, name, stick size, or lineage of your instructor? To go out on a limb here, I think there is a large percentage of Americans that WANT a grandiose story to give their instructor credibility. (Much less in the FMA community however.) Remember the stories about Seagal working for the CIA? That sure didn't hurt his American "sellability". I even read an interview once where he would not comment on the CIA question. I use this as just an example, insert any instructor and any military/law enforcement group in the same sentence. In my karate days, our master was reported to be able to kick basketball rims and was scheduled to fight Bruce Lee three days before Lee died. We were just teenagers at the time, and we sure ate it up. We can all chime in to say that these things don't matter to us, but the droves of posts on this list tell a different story. I always use the following joke to drive the point. How many martial artists does it take to change a light bulb? ANSWER: 100. One to change the bulb, 99 to say that he was not qualified. - --- See you in the sticks, Dale www.kalieskrima.com uskrima, iskrima, we all skrima for eskrima ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:11:47 EST Subject: Re: eskrima: Live Blade training In a message dated 2/18/01 8:40:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Just pointing out an inherent fallacy in the killing shot theory. Yes, I realize that most MAists accept it as fact, but not me. It is similar to the magic wand theory, if I hit them HARD in the head with my magic kamagong stick the fight is over. No, not necessarily. >> Ummm is it just me or doesn't it occur to anyone else that if you hit someone hard enough to kill them, then you also kind of hit them hard enough to knock them -- if not down -- then at least a little bit away. Now that seems to me the perfect opportunity to beat feet. If you aren't hitting that hard then yes, the wound might be fatal in a few hours (last time I checked, somewhere around 50% of all people with fatal head wounds walk into the hospital), but not immediately. And nobody is denying the fact that someone in the middle of a combat mindset can take a horrible blow and keep on operating. What I am saying is that there are many variations that are not immediately obvious to people who have only heard about these extremes. Not all of them are the unstoppable boogie man so beloved by alarmists. Nor are they the hothouse flowers who will fold at the first dim mak tap by a dojo darling. Bottom-line is you have to pay attention to what is really happening...and not what you think will happen when you do something. That is what will give you the opportunity to effectively react in a situation. That subtle difference is of no importance in the training hall, but it can and will spell the difference between life and death when facing a blade. Unfortunately, I seldom see it trained for in the dojo. Which is why I insist most people are training for art, not combat. (which while there is nothing wrong with training for art, it is a disservice to call one the other) Unfortunately, I still am getting a whiff of what Colonel Applegate called the "Dueling" mentality here. Recognize what I am talking about is inflicting a killing move AS I am getting the hell out of there - and this is what I teach too. Everything you said can and will become a horrible reality if you are still standing around trying to "fight" the guy. There is a subtle mindset that one must be careful of not to adopt. And that is after years dedicated to training for "fighting," the first instinct of training is to stay there and fight. The idea of "getting out of there" is paid only lip service. I have trained a lot of people who have lots of experience in the FMA who come to me with the idea of standing there and fighting. To a man their eyes got as big as saucers as they took a knife fighting stance and the next thing they know my knife drags across their throats and I am standing five feet away. I get the same reaction when they attack me with a knife and end up on the floor and me somewhere else. It's hard to get stabbed, slashed, chopped or cut if you aren't there. Once again, see if you can get down to El Segundo to see the difference. ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:37:16 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Guro DAN and Inosanto academy ****** From Marc MacYoung Does anyone have a number for his academy that I can contact him and leave a > message? I met him moons past when he had the school with Hawkins on Venice > Blvd, but I don't know where his academy is located these days.******** Here you go Marc Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts 7298 W. Manchester Ave Suite B Los Angeles Calif 90045 310-348 9944 fax 417 8985 academy email address. bbiama@aol.com There place is 5 min from Lax if you take Sepulveda you will run into Manchester and its just a few min once you get too Manchester. First i believe that Inosanto academy does not have a site and the one that was up before was done by a student and not actually the academy's site. Marc keep in mind a few things here before you try and contact Guru Dan. first he is gone over most weekends because of his seminar schedule. Guru Dan teaches Kali III classes himself on Tuesday nights and might be your best bet at actually getting an invitation to him. If you call the academy they will give you the time of the Tuesday night classes he teaches still there himself. I believe the class time for kali III is 8pm he teaches a silat class before that i. but call Dore there at the academy and she can confirm the class schedule because i cant find my copy here right now to be sure of the times. Good luck Marc hope that helped some... Ms J.......... ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:00:07 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Spyderco Gunting Spyderco Gunting Ya know you guys i don't have one of these knives but i friend of mine has one and was showing it to me last January in calif and i got to play with it a little bit. there awesome actually and i really did like the blade. easy grip and it was easy for my Arthritic hands to grasp with no problems. only reason i don't have one yet is cuz i don't have the cash right now and all i make goes into the Program my organization is offering to Victims right now... though its a great blade and if i had the 100 or so lying about it would be part of my collection. for both training with and carrying. tis a cool knives to be sure. hey by Bday is coming up mayhap i get one then as a gift.. 90% of my real steal is gotten as gifts anyway..... hahah what to get a woman for her birthday..... real blades..... weeeeeeeeeeeeee Ms. J....... Really nice knife though and i don't often give endorsements ------------------------------ From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (Dieter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kn=FCttel?=) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:10:51 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Bram Franks and "Gunting" Spyderco Hi, thanks for the infos on Bram Franks. Very interesting. In the pictures from that article he looked like someone, who knows what he was doing. Anyway, the knife looked interesting too, but here in Germany the retail price is over 200 US$ (450,-- DM) for the real knife as well as for the dull training knife. That is more than I am willing to pay for a knife, especially for a training knife. What is the price in the US for the "Gunting" model of Spyderco? And do you feel too, that 200 US$ is a little much for a knife or is it a "normal" price for a good knife? Regards Dieter - -- Dieter Knüttel ABANICO Video Productions http://www.abanico.de European Modern Arnis Representative http://modern-arnis.de ------------------------------ From: John Cipkar Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:13:51 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #91 > Was this the Bram Frank designed folder, the Gunting? Yes, from Spyderco. In talking to Guro B last night, he reasoned that when using the training blade, you don't notice the blade gliding along then skin after the blade is opened. The result was a trained response for a dragging cut on his thigh. I order to prevent a repeat of the accident, he experimented with the training blade. He noted that when deploying the Gunting, there is a predictable arch, where it is safe to open the blade. But when deployed against a, call it robust opponent, the predictable arch is completed before passing the limb completely, resulting in an unintentional cut. He said he was going to park the Gunting knife in a drawer and go back to the knife he previously carried. Maybe someone else can perfect deploying the Gunting. For the record. The quality of that knife is apparent, and Guro A swears by it (but he is sorta skinny). Respect and Regards, Sarge ------------------------------ From: "Mike Casto" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:52:30 -0500 Subject: eskrima: RE: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 << > The knife has been in production for less than a year at this point > in time, but I can vouch for it in terms of meeting the "truth in > advertising" test. It was designed to used **closed** most of the time. It > is superior to most other folding knives, the kubaton and > pocket stick for self defense usage in the closed format. The open > blade is less tan 4 inches, but that is consistant with the design intent of > being used closed more often than opened for self defense. As I recall the blade is less than 3" in length. Which, of course, is less that 4". :) >> Well, if we get absolutely technical, the blade is 2 7/8" ... sorry, I couldn't resist :-) I think this was done so that it would be well within the legal carry laws in most areas. Of course, when people look at it, they tend to see a vicious killing weapon (based purely on aesthetics ... not on any real understanding). That's a drawback ... but I figure that being able to illustrate the fact that, as a knife, it's no more lethal than a Buck pocket folder (though it can usually be brought into play quicker). It's real strengths lie in it's use as a well-designed, high-quality pocket stick. Regards, Mike ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:25:04 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Bram Franks and "Gunting" Spyderco > What is the price in the US for the "Gunting" model of Spyderco? It can be found discounted for just over $100. The list price is $170. > And do > you feel too, that 200 US$ is a little much for a knife or is it a > "normal" price for a good knife? IMHO $170 is too high for a production knife, that may be one reason why it is difficult to find in the shops. But you'll pay more for a good custom knife. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Wires" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:05:23 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Bram Frank I am a personal friend & student of Bram's & would like to nitpick a little: "Guro Bram Frank, is a 5th degree Blackbelt, under Datu Shishir Inocalla. That promotion was granted after Mr. Frank, tested in the Phiippines, late last year. He also holds a 3rd degree, from Professor Remy Presas, through the International Modern Arnis Federation." This isn't entirely true, Bram did get his 5th from Shishir, but it wasn't in the PI. He has tested for his 3rd in Modern Arnis with Remy, but isn't currently involved with the IMAF. The only reason I bring this up is that he was recently attacked on Bladeforums.com with a former business partner claming he was a fraud, and claimed all kinds of rankings he didn't have. So, I just want to set the record straight, before additional BS surfaces. The Gunting knife is great, I've used one since the original prototypes came out last year and the REKAT Escalator version before that. Edges 2 has fixed trainers (open & closed) and Spyderco makes a fully functional trainer that has red G10 scales and a blunt edge for actual training. As stated before, the liveblade can bite, and it is meant for use, not training. I just left a message on his answering machine & he might post on it. He does subscribe to ED. Andy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:37:49 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Live Blade training > << Just pointing out an inherent fallacy in the killing shot theory. Yes, I > realize that most MAists accept it as fact, but not me. It is similar to > the magic wand theory, if I hit them HARD in the head with my magic kamagong > stick the fight is over. No, not necessarily. >> > > Ummm is it just me or doesn't it occur to anyone else that if you hit someone > hard enough to kill them, then you also kind of hit them hard enough to knock > them -- if not down -- then at least a little bit away. Again, I'm simply trying to point out the fallacy in the killing shot theory. This is nothing more than yet another variation on the one punch, one kill philosophy. In the heat of battle and adrenaline people don't stand still waiting for delivery of this so called killing move. Moving the target only an inch or three or slippery hands can quickly turn a killing move into just another average technique. IMHO the concept of "so what if I blow it and my killing move doesn't work, the attacker is now unconscious" (from your earlier post) is just not based in reality. All I'm saying is it just isn't that simple and predictable. Surely you agree with that, yes? Either way, you can have the last word. I've made my point the best that I am able, time to move on... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:53:20 PST Subject: eskrima: Shishir > "Guro Bram Frank, is a 5th degree Blackbelt, under Datu Shishir > Inocalla. That promotion was granted after Mr. Frank, tested in > the Phiippines, late last year. He also holds a 3rd degree, from Professor > Remy Presas, through the International Modern Arnis Federation." > > This isn't entirely true, Bram did get his 5th from Shishir, but it wasn't > in the PI. He has tested for his 3rd in Modern Arnis with Remy, but isn't > currently involved with the IMAF. Ok, next question... :) Who is Datu Shishir Inocalla? What style is he? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:47:56 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #94 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.