From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #96 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 19 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 096 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #89 eskrima: re: shishir eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #95 eskrima: FW: oiling your rattan eskrima: Re: Live Blade Training eskrima: Atlanta Re: eskrima: Re: Live Blade Training eskrima: One punch, one kill - Multiple Hitting Re: eskrima: One punch, one kill - Multiple Hitting eskrima: Re: killing blow eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kalkiusa@netscape.net (Mikal Keenan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:10:01 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #89 > The world is fooled by credentials. The world is fooled by meaningless and/or phoney credentials. The world is also fooled by the uncredentialed who convince them that they know what they're doing. I watch a guy collect $10 from each participant in his weekly "classes." His marks ... er, students go in not knowing what they're going to learn when or why ... but yet they come back for their regular dose of bravado/macho/"Y...MCA" playtime. The "instructor" has no formal MA training, no credentials. When asked how to develop punching speed I've watched him on more than one occasion just direct someone to the heavy bag. On another occasion he steps over to the speed bag and shows them a one two. He doesn't present any mechanics for punching, kicking, etc. and only "teaches" the straight knee. I've been in MA for over 30 years (nobody special) ... was offered a school in about 1973 or so (turned down the "opportunity"). I use a lot of my background in bio-behavioral science to make clear why some methods of striking make sense and some don't. Some of this other guy's ! students will try my "class" once, can't function, and quit (go back to their regular dose of bravado/macho/etc. :-) I've got credentials, decency, maybe a halfway decent character, etc. ... and cringe when I hear the others talk about how all they wanna do is go "find some dirty sluts" ... after which mister celebrated suggests that they come to his workplace. He's fooling the heck out of those guys ... and he's doing it without credentials, aiya, what skill!:-) > Anyone who has done alot of school knows that. I've done doctoral level work in 3 fields ... I don't know nuthin'. > In America many rate success as financial success. Yah, and financial success correlates with neither credentials nor character. > Who are the richest people? When did "rich" become the measure of character? Rich ain't everything ... I've trained a few rich people who were the sorriest suckers I ever met. They had plenty of credentials, plenty of money, no morals, and screwed up character. I would not suggest that all rich people with professional credentials are the same, nor would anyone who has exrcised their mind much suggest that character precludes professional credentials. Richness does not correlate with character. > Not the ones with PHD credentials. Not the MD's or the DDS's. Some PhDs are rich. Some MDs are rich. I suspect that some DDSs are rich too. Likewise some chiropractors, vveterinarians, etc. Some people reach high levels of finacial success because of what they can do. Some reach financial success because of what they get others to do. Others get there because of what others believe they can do (phoney or real credentials? Reputation, etc.?;-). Still others get there due to fortunate cirmstances or any combination of the above or any factors favorable to their success. Character does not guarantee financial success. Credentials and the professional or "refereed" training that might lead to the acquisition of credentials do not guarantee success. Neither does character ... sometimes just the opposite, eh? OTOH, the absence of aptitude, refereed training, professional credentials, character, etc. may not promote success as much as their presence. When my mama needs heart surgery, I ain't takin' her to some self-proclaimed or "widely acknowledged" expert who went to a few seminars on how to make Valentine's Day cards. The essence of training lineages and credentials on any craft is the increased likelihood that in following the advice of the "expert" we will be leaving less to chance in our attempts to succeed in whatever requirement we have related to their expertise. In all things, our chances of success are directly related to how little we leave to chance. If we have some tangible evidence that our supposed expert has been through the mill that he or she claims to have been through, then we can better estimate our chances of success in followin them or using their advice/instruction/etc. That's the essence of real credentials, be they PhD, MD, DDS, XYZ, DDT, RBS (Real B.S. :-) or whatever. Real credentials mean "this one's been tested." This doesn't mean that those who develop expertise through "nontraditional! " avenues are untested, just that those whose mastery of some body of knowledge has been objectively tested offer us better chances for success in applying their relevant assistance. Whew! I been holdin' that back for awhile. Sorry for the noise friends. Example: Many of Chang Deng-Sheng's disciples are PhDs and MDs. One such PhD is a software engineer for IBM, calm quiet guy wh9 smokes a pipe. Speaking with one of his fellow Shuai Chiao masters about the unbelievable "smooth" of his technical ability the response was: "He's our FINISHING expert." The guy wears a trauma plate for sparring :-) If I wanted to train Shuai Chiao, I would go to someone like him who has a verifiable lineage and credentials linking him with a renowned master source, not someone who went to a few of his seminars and figured a few things out. Likesie FMA ... I'd rahter train with someone who has the refereed credential of Tuhon than someone who has been to "a whole lot of seminars" and wants to have everyone follow him. Licensing is intended to convey that we can place some level of confidence in the ability of the licensee, true? Doesn't mean that all of the licensed are equal or suitable for a particular job ... but that's why we check references, etc. Credentials or no, it's still up to us to check things out. 'Nuff. Please pardon my noise y'all. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: "William Anderson" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:00:43 +1000 (GST) Subject: eskrima: re: shishir From what I have heard from my modern arnis instructor in the philippines, Datu Shishir has been traveling back and forth from Canada/US with the organization of his association in the Philippines. I have also talked to Bram Frank about this organization and Bram has confirmed this. Datu Shishir wrote a couple of books and did some tapes when he was in Canada as well as recently being in the Ernie Reyes movie released about a year ago. Once I get more info from my instructor in the Philippines, I'll post it Bill Maharlika Kuntaw Guam ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:07:06 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #95 From Marc MacYoung << Yeah, one punch, one kill can work if you are big enough (see British bouncer Geoff Thompson's body of work. He advocates the "pre-emptive strike".) but if you are a small guy, multiple strikes are the way to go. They also increase your chances of getting the "killing" blow in. >> *sigh* I know of no "one punch /kill" In all honesty I seriously doubt that it really exists - even if there are some "masters" who supposedly can do it. Face it the hand is too small and light. You simply cannot deliver that kind of force with your hand...as many boxers have discovered the hard way. On the other hand, I'm noticing that my term "killing move" is being translated into "punch." That is a perfect example of the "training bias" I was mentioning. Even if I used the word "strike" I don't think I ever used the word "punch." That's not what I am talking about folks, even if your training says it is. And those kind of unconscious assumptions and limitations on your possible defensive movement are exactly what is going to get you killed in the real thing --especially if you are up against someone that doesn't have your same defintions of what constitutes an attack. I've said it before, I'll say it again...come down to El Segundo and SEE what I am talking about...don't just assume you know it. This ain't Cebu City folks, we do things differently here in the States. If you don't know the difference, you're going to get someone killed if they ever find themselves in the real enchilada. ------------------------------ From: "HHSTM - Campbell, Eric" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:35:59 -0600 Subject: eskrima: FW: oiling your rattan > -----Original Message----- > From: HHSTM - Campbell, Eric > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:29 AM > To: 'eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com' > Subject: oiling your rattan > > Hello everybody, i was wondering what exactly does oiling do for the > sticks. And does it matter if they are rattan, bahi, and or bamboo, and > does it affect the grip, if so what can be done to increase (grip), > thanks for your time and i really enjoy the Digest. ------------------------------ From: "Buz Grover" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:14:30 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Live Blade Training As a beginner who, with lots of training, may someday grasp the bottom most rung of abject mediocrity, I'm not sure I should be telling people to train with live blades. However, as someone who earned a living for a lot of years slicing and dicing things in sundry kitchens, I've no doubt at all that the only way to learn how to cut things effectively and consistently is to spend a lot of time with a live blade in hand. Make no mistake, if you spend lots of time swinging sharp things near your body, you will get cut, and I've got the scars and dead finger tips to prove it. I never met a cook who hadn't seen his share of stitches or who couldn't tell you about someone who'd done major damage with a blade. I remember the new guy who was chatting with me while I cut the silverskin off a beef tenderloin. I use to work with a bar towel draped over my left shoulder; the towel slipped, the new guy reached in from my left to catch it while I did the same from my right with a recently honed boning knife in hand. Poof, there went twenty odd stitches and a couple ligaments across four fingers. Didn't see much of the new guy after that, though the folly of reaching in towards a blade along a plane its business edge is likely to travel was certainly etched upon my mind. Which is a long winded way of saying that working with live blades on a regular basis is all sorts of dangerous, though doing so leads to a clarity and understanding hard to obtain in any other way. I guess the question becomes: what is it you're seeking to learn? Want to defend against a 10 inch French knife in reverse grips coming at you in the shower ala Alfred Hitchcock? By all means train high "X" blocks in response to someone dropping a dowel on you. Want to train for generic dirtbags asking you for your wallet on the subway? Grab your aluminum dagger and sally forth. Want to train for God knows what occurring God knows when involving sharp objects? Snag something sharp and incorporate it into your training knowing full well you will get cut. Those be the dues, do you want to pay 'em? Though I know most folks won't find this useful, I use to buy my carry blades in pairs. One stayed with my street clothes, the other went to the kitchen as a paring/utility knife. I'd put the kitchen blade through everything I could, figuring I'd rather learn about its weaknesses in the kitchen than on the street. Don't know if a purist would call this live blade training, but it's probably the closest thing to it I'm willing to do. Indeed, in 20 years of cooking I've met fewer than a half dozen people I'd share a cutting board with, much less let swing a knife at me. I do, however, shadow everything I learn with both my carry blade and belt knives. I figure if I'm going to lop something off, I'd best do it when there aren't a bunch of bad guys standing around. And no, Ray, since starting FMA I haven't cut myself, but the day is young. Regards, Buz Grover ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net (Mikal Keenan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:45:42 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Atlanta Can anyone here comment on the South East Asian MA (Kali, Silat, Muay Thai) scene in Atlanta? Birmingham just ain't happening yet. My last post hit me like a brick ... everyone who shows up wants everything quick and gets disgruntled because they can't do things on the first day ... want to do more advanced things right away. Had a local black belt "instructor" show a couple of weeks ago ... couldn't do triangle stepping ... insisted on doing his dojang hop instead (how you gonna grow to where you think you wanna go if you keep going back to where you've been). There've been others who think that if it ain't UFC/JJ it's too soft (read as: I ain't got no ... coordination). Had another black belt come in with single stick awhizzin' "WE come out like THIS!!!" (reminded me of my son at 2 and-a-half :-) Asked him "Can you FIGHT with that?" "No..." he says. Oy vey mama! According to another native, kung fu/kali/silat are "sissy s__t". Huh? Anyway, I'm thinking that I may have to trek from BHM to ATL or stagnate. Other than Sifu Fong, wha's goin' on obah dere? Any Kun Tao in town? Here in Alabam, what about Auburn? Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:27:22 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Live Blade Training > And no, Ray, since starting FMA I haven't cut myself, but the day is > young. Come train w/me... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Scott Wiggins Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:13:50 +0000 Subject: eskrima: One punch, one kill - Multiple Hitting ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Hi Ray, Both of my FMA instructors are small guys (one Filipino - Danny Guba- one British - Jimi McAvoy) and both stress the idea of multiple strikes not only to maximise the amount of damage you are doing to the opponent but also to limit the available responses from your opponent. If they are trying not to get hit, they are less likely to be hitting (ok, I know the best defence is offence, but multiple hits in minimal time limits the reactions due to pain signals coming in from various points on the body). Yeah, one punch, one kill can work if you are big enough (see British bouncer Geoff Thompson's body of work. He advocates the "pre-emptive strike".) but if you are a small guy, multiple strikes are the way to go. They also increase your chances of getting the "killing" blow in. Bill Lowery To emphasise Bill's point further, my Guro often quotes the story, who's name I can't remember of an elderly eskrimador in the US who defended himself emptyhanded against an attacker. He was brought before the court because he gave the guy a real doing over. Apparently he was asked ho at his age he managed to hit the guy at least 28 times before he hit the floor. Putting the legal aspects to one side, kinda proves a point. Hit and hit and hit somemore, when they go down get away. The pre-emptive stuff is good but bolt this on the end. Scott Scott@home-cov.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:57:43 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: One punch, one kill - Multiple Hitting > To emphasise Bill's point further, my Guro often quotes the story, who's > name I can't remember of an elderly eskrimador in the US who defended > himself emptyhanded against an attacker. He was brought before the > court because he gave the guy a real doing over. Apparently he was > asked ho at his age he managed to hit the guy at least 28 times before > he hit the floor. Actually, if it is the case often spoken about, the elderly eskrimador stabbed/cut his attacker umpteen times and was asked by the court to demo how that could happen, which he did. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Jean-Yves Pernot Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:49:40 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: killing blow Hi all, If the guy opposite you is using a knife, isn't there a big risk that *he* might be getting the killing blow in while you're concentrating on your multiple blows? (ok, ok.....unless you're holding his knife hand with one hand while beating his brains out with the other :-) Wouldn't this risk considerably diminish if you concentrated on only 1 killer blow followed by frantic running? Its not easy to run away if you're busy assaulting someone....... :-) Jean-Yves Pernot Bill Lowery wrote: >Yeah, one punch, one kill can work if you are big >enough (see British bouncer Geoff Thompson's body of >work. He advocates the "pre-emptive strike".) but if >you are a small guy, multiple strikes are the way to go. >They also increase your chances of getting the "killing" >blow in. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:48:07 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #96 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.