From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #99 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 20 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 099 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 eskrima: Rick Tucci Kali Video Clips - EDGES2 eskrima: Re: sparring eskrima: Drills vs. sparring eskrima: southern discomfort eskrima: Re: Its not Cebu City ? eskrima: Cebu City and the real Enchilada eskrima: El Segundo - the real enchilada eskrima: True But.... eskrima: Live Blade Training eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:16:44 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #93 In a message dated 2/18/01 10:41:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I'm running, even if I have to run over the guy with the knife. >> Just out of curiosity, how many on this digest practice running? I'm not talking about jogging, or track running, but the really running. When I was a kid, ( a rotten one I must admit) we used to steal fruit from a sidewalk vendor. It wasn't the fruit really it was the thrill of getting away with it, cause this big Italian would chase you and if he caught you he'd give you a heck of a shellacking. As any LEO can tell you running on a track or beach, etc., is a lot different from tearing off in street clothes and shoes, scaling fences, dodging trash cans etc. I got to thinking about this several years ago when I was taking a seminar from a very accomplished Guro who advised us to run run and run some more when faced with a weapon. However, as I looked around the room I realized that over half the people would be better to stay and fight as running 2 blocks would completely wind them. Please understand I am not throwing gauntlets down as to anyone's aerobic capacity, I am just curious. Be Well, Bear ------------------------------ From: Robert L Burgee Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:20:21 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Rick Tucci Kali Video Clips - EDGES2 Hey, I just wanted to give everyone the word that we've just posted some new MPEG Video clips of Rick Tucci's new Kali Series on http://www.trainingblades.com. We extracted one clip from each tape to help give everyone an idea of the content of the video series. For all the technique junkies out there I did a rough technique count for the series, and you're looking at about 230+ techniques/drills (not including variations) for the entire series. Volume #5 (Disarms) has a whopping 58 techniques! I know I'll be studying it for the next 5 years or so. Take a look at the 7 new video clips at www.trainingblades.com We also have a few more videos in the works to keep an eye out for: Erik Paulson's CSW 2001 Series (Triangles & Striking) & the new Greg Nelson (Minnesota Martial Arts Academy) "Clinch" series. Both should be available in the next month or two... ------------------------------ From: "Kimberley Hobbs" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:55:48 -0330 Subject: eskrima: Re: sparring Hi everyone, long time no write ;-) I have only had two occasions to stick spar in the three years that I have been training and I got to say I LOVED it! It was a real eye opener for me. The first time I sparred everything I learned about sticks, every block and counter went out the window. I guess it was the whole adrenaline rush thing - that's my excuse until I come up with a better one. The second time I sparred (about a year later) was much better. Instead of rushing in there I took my time and used my head. All those sumbrada cycles and numerada drills came flooding back and I managed to look like I knew what I was doing. Jocelyne may have a different opinion since it was her I sparred with :-) Those drills are great on there own for developing coordination and reaction time, but nothing beats sparring to really show you how these basic moves work in reality. Kim _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Tom Valesky Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:14:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Drills vs. sparring The old-school (koryu) Japanese arts also emphasize drills and minimize sparring. I have often wondered why this is: 1- because they got plenty of real-life "sparring" as a function of what they did for a living? 2- because they were training a mental attitude of killing rather than sparring? 3- because even light sparring with wooden clubs tends to be a bit dangerous? I honestly don't know the answer, but I suspect that it was a combination of these. ------------------------------ From: "Virginia Martial Arts" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:42:25 -0800 Subject: eskrima: southern discomfort <> Hi Mik, I thought you were in Guam or some such place. It sounds like you have the answer in your post. Why not organize your own club? I personally would much rather be a student, but that is not geographically a good choice. Yes, you'll have to filter through some dorks before you find some new training partners. Be patient, they will find you. I also find that just calling it martial arts at first is more acceptable and a good way to avoid some of the preconceived ideas you posted about. See you in the sticks, Dale www.kalieskrima.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Its not Cebu City ? - -- A poster noted, following up Marc "The Animal's comment: Response: First I respect Marc and have several of his videos. But I seek clarity on Cebu City not being LA or U.S. I just spent three weeks in Cebu. Having lived in large urban areas like Chicago, New York, DC, Sacramento, and so forth--I agree that Cebu is not the U.S. Thank goodness. Because Cebu and the PI has its own unique character that can't be duplicated by U.S. cities. Now, if you mean that Cebu is not as crime laden as U.S. urban areas, perhaps. But if your at the S&M or Ayala Mall, Cebu--watch your bags and packages. Also, I do not recall armed guards checking customers who enter the mall with hand held radar batons as they do in Cebu. That happens everyday in Cebu. Poverty breeds petty crime. Or check out the banks with the guards carrying shotguns at the front door. Hence, Marc could you elaborate on your sentence that compared the two countries. I do not want to misrepresent the point you were attempting to make. Also, when were you last in Cebu. Where did you stay ? Did you train there ? Insights into the cultural differences between U.S. and Cebu ? Did you try the cuisine ? How about the maganda Filipinas ? Many thanks, Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:49:03 EST Subject: eskrima: Cebu City and the real Enchilada Mrs J said: << When did Animal say he was in El Segundo? and can i take pictures if i am in calif that week? >> This weekend, Sunday, February 25th 1-5 pm El Segundo United Methodist Church 540 Main St >that and well seeing both sides personally tis sort of funny that ya sort of said that animal..... actually and i swear i am not trying to be mean or silly but i cant stop laughing about it..... >Its just such a totally ridicules statement..... I'd probably be more entertained about comments about the realities of "knife fighting" from second or third generation students of the old maestros, if I hadn't ended up curled up in an apartment's laundry room puking my guts out in revulsion and terror after having to shank someone when a drug deal went bad. Confidence is what you have before you know the realities of what is going on. Folks let me clarify something, I respect the arts for what they are and where they work. And that is a deep and abiding respect -- for the art, forthe teachers and for the hard work that students put into learning their art. I am in no way dengrating these accomplisments or the value that they have. So please don't think I am diss'n the arts or their value. I will be the first to say they are wonderful. But until someone has survived as many knife assaults as I did, don't tell me you know what works in a knife fight. I want to sit down and have a cup of coffee with the old man himself and ask him "how'd you survive?" I guarantee you that I will find little tweaks about what he did that made all the difference in the world. Tweaks that may or may not have been lost in the ensuing generations. Those tweaks are what I want to know. Because my focus has never been art/discipline or tradition. But rather survival under a wide array of unpredictable circumstances. However, as the Dog Brothers have shown, there are a lot of things that have crept into stick fighting that until that time, people accepted would work. Don't think that the same hasn't happened with bladework. In all those times I was attacked, I was NEVER attacked in the ways I usually see people train to handle knife attacks. And only once did I end up in a knife to knife. And when I went out and checked with others who had also survivied I got pretty much the same story, so these are not isolated incidents but rather common patterns. Now what does that tell you about the more common forms/attitudes of training that many people are undergoing in the US? >Holy Cow......... ummmmm Animal have you ever been to the philipines? i only ask because well...... you know its pretty enchilada there most of the time dude..... No I haven't. And yes, I have heard they are beautiful too However, despite the attempt to side track, I beleive the comment was "this ain't Cebu City folks. " Unless you woke up this morning speaking any of the 87 Filipeano dialects and it's the middle of summer where you are, people might want to consider the fact that maybe the conditions you will encounter might be slightly different than what those people are facing. I don't know about the rest of you folks, but if I were to carry a bolo knife to the supermarket the local PD might get a little antsy. Add to that I have met, trained with and observed some folks who were pretty damned efficent with a knife in ways that in no way resemble the FMA. And while I have never been to the Philippines, I have traveled widely outside the US and worked with LEOs from many countries. And I always ask about blade problems. From these experiences I have discoved unless want to bleed out, you had better sit up and take notice on how some other people play with blades, because there are other folks who have knife systems that are just as lethal. And they are going to come at you in ways you ain't never dreamed of. FYI guys, there's stuff out there that I don't have the vaguest idea how to handle -- shy of just shooting the SOB. And if it's got me backpedalling, what does that suggest you should do? ------------------------------ From: JR G Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:11:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: El Segundo - the real enchilada Animal wrote:*****I've said it before, I'll say it again...come down to El Segundo and SEE what I am talking about...don't just assume you know it. This ain't Cebu City folks, we do things differently here in the States. If you don't know the difference, you're going to get someone killed if they ever find themselves in the real enchilada.****** ************ Never experienced the dangers of El Segundo, so I'm not assuming I know anything. I do have a cousin who witnessed two killings in the PI while he stayed for a couple of months. 1. Two tri-cycle drivers bumped vehicles. Both pulled knives and killed each other discussing the situation. 2. During a fiesta an argument was settled with a hammer to the forehead. Like I said, I've never been to El Segundo so I'll take your word for it, but it does get pretty "real enchilada" in the PI. Our arts did come from there after all. As for doing things differently here in the states, last time I had a fender bender, instead of pulling knives, we swapped insurance info. Course, I'm not from El Segundo. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Carlton H. Fung,D.D.S." Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:05:59 -0800 Subject: eskrima: True But.... >There are single, closed, one hand strikes which CAN kill. It's not >reliable, but it is certainly possible and has happened. Break the hyoid >bone. Hit the heart at the right time to cause ventricular fibrillation. A >powerful blow to the fontanel. Burst the bladder. Rupture the spleen or a >kidney (if the kidney doesn't self-tamponade). Every one of these is well >documented in the medical literature. Todd, True but so rare and unlikely that 99% of people could not do it to a stationary target. Second, these events are so rare as to be news. These events are about as likely as the guy who still attacks after a cop unloads a full clip of 9mm into a perp. You really need to Stun and Run. You should never know how effective you were because you should be outta there. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:35:44 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Live Blade Training Grand Pooba Ray asked who on the list did live blade training and if they had gotten cut. I'm writing in on the thread a little late because of my recent promotion to the rank of Grand Pooped Papa (those 3:00 AM diaper changes take their toll). Tuhon Gaje had us do our hand vs. knife drills early on with a live blade. The idea, I believe, being twofold. 1. If the first time you see a knife coming at you, you were going to freeze it was better if your first time was under the controlled conditions of the school. 2. If the first time you got cut, and he assumed (planed?) that you would be cut, you may freeze, again better under controlled conditions. Most of us got cut during training or at demos. We used to joke in those days "In Pekiti we don't have belts, we have scars." The first time I was cut, I was 18 and we were doing a demo. Leo had one of my knives, a shaving sharp double edged dagger. I was doing the empty hand part of the drill. After a few seconds I began to see blood on his uniform. Since I didn't feel anything I figured he must have cut himself. I then noticed that my left palm had more blood on it than he did and realized that I was the one who had been cut. I bowed out and went to examine the wound. Luckily, the cut had only gone through the skin and just nicked a tendon without severing it. Another time was also during a demo doing knife doing a hand vs knife drill with Leo. We were using a dull but sharply pointed dagger. I was stabbed in the bottom of the right forearm. The knife only penetrated a half inch or so, but this time I did notice it as the muscles of the forearm began to cramp very severely within a few seconds. Leo massaged it out and the arm was fine within a short period. Another time I as cut was at a large demo after the tournament at the Great Gorge Playboy Club in 1980. Leo and I were doing knife tapping, trading the knife back and forth with disarms. I came away with a stab to the ribs and Leo had a small cut on the back of his forearm. This was also the first time I met Guro Inosanto who Leo had asked to demo with us. As Leo and I came off the stage Dan said, "Boy you guys must have really practiced to get the moves so choreographed". Leo said "Dan it's not choreographed, I attack randomly and he has to counter." Danny looked at Leo's knife and said "but that's a real knife." "You bet it's real." I said and opened my uniform so he could see the wound. Another time I was cut was in 81 when I was working at Balisong Inc in L.A. I was giving private classes in my off hours in their basement to stuntmen and Nam Vets and feeling pretty cocky about it. I was teaching one new student how to do a hand vs. knife drill and picked up an old steak knife someone had used to spread peanut butter a few days before and left on the sink unwashed (typical guy's kitchen) and proceeded to show him the drill. I had him freeze in position and was pointing with my left hand where he would have to move my arm, when he suddenly did so, bringing my knife arm down and burying the point of the knife into my left palm. Luckily the knife hit bone and did not penetrate too deeply, so I cleaned out the wound, bandaged it up, and went back to training. That night infection set in and the hand got really painful. Being a macho young guy of 20 I decided to tough it out. By the morning my hand was the size of a hockey glove and turning all kinds of pretty colors. Later that morning I saw Eskrimador Sam Tendencia who had me heat some ginger root in an oven, smash it, then spread the root over my hand. The ginger took the swelling down, but Les De Asis wisely convinced me to go to the emergency room for some antibiotics. Fortunately, I haven't cut too many students in training. The worst of these was with a friend who owned a school I was teaching at in 85. We were doing a hand vs knife drill at a demo and he ended up getting a deep cut across the back of the forearm that almost severed the muscle. His reaction? "Gee, I thought that would have hurt more" he said as we examined the wound in the bathroom. In Germany a few years back I was illustrating a point about the ineffectiveness of ice pick grip slashes with a small pocketknife at a seminar. I had the teacher hold a piece of dry wall (gypsum board) up and had the students slash it using their carry knives held in ice pick grip. They just scored the board, but I forgot that you only need to score dry wall to weaken it greatly. The third student came up and made his slash. Just then the teacher braced his grip on the board. You couldn't have timed it better if you tried (you know what happened next), the board broke and the teacher's hand came down into the path of the knife. He ended up cut across the second joint of three fingers. We examined the wounds and found that just the skin was cut even though he was cut right across the joint while it was in a flexed position. I made the point that if the student had been using the large knife that icepick grip slashes were designed for, then the teacher's fingers would have been on the floor. Leo used to do live blade knife training during hand vs. knife drills with most of the students virtually from day one. These days, for liability reasons, I restrict it to a few advanced students. I also stay away from using serrated knives while doing hand vs knife drills as I feel these are more likely to cut through tendons. What I do more of these days are drills in which the students use their own knives for cutting/stabbing practice. I feel it is necessary to show the students the pros and cons of each grip for their particular carry knife and to develop realistic expectations of what their knife is capable of. Even here you have to be careful. It helps to have the student ware a leather arm sleeve and a thick leather or wire mess glove on their left hand and not let the drill run on to the point that fatigue sets in and their accuracy suffers. One thing I took away from seeing myself and others get cut is how often the person getting cut will not realize he's been cut until he sees the blood. It's not that we toughed out the pain - there was no pain. I emphasize with my students that a 4 inch pocket knife is the .22 pistol of the knife world. Yes, a lot of people have been killed by .22's, but don't expect the same flexibility with shot placement with a .22 as with a .45. I feel it is the same with a pocket knife vs a bolo. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath Visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:13:33 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #99 *************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.