From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #102 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 21 Feb 2001 Vol 08 : Num 102 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 eskrima: Southern Discomfort eskrima: Spyderco/Hwa Rang Do eskrima: Re: knife try eskrima: Trapping Hands eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 eskrima: Wing Chun eskrima: Heart punch etc. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 eskrima: clarification Re: eskrima: clarification ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kel620@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:30:50 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 Eric Remmen. He owned the Northwest Safari knife catalog/store, and was in many issues of Fighting Knives Magazine. In a message dated 02/21/2001 10:24:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Ray, > > Northwest Safaris.?. Bearded guy...(can't think of his name either). I > heard some interesting things but recently (1 year to 6 mos.) ago heard that > he was not active anymore. > > KD ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net (Mikal Keenan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:43:09 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Southern Discomfort > I thought you were in Guam or some such place. If it weren't for my wife and a few friends I'd be singin' "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child" ;-) 'ey, I hear Guam has some good martial arts ... San Ryu Jitsu or something like that. > It sounds like you have the answer in your post. Why not organize your own club? Frankly I'm headed in the opposite direction friend. I've been in Bhm for 10 years now ... used to teach at the university ... long story, I'm no longer interested in starting anything. In the gym where I train on weekends I was asked to start a class ... posted some notes about it ... still no draw after a year ... but people flock to the "make believe" fitness kickboxing classes. A few have tried my humble offerings. When they couldn't do basic day one novice trivia they quit. Offered workshops ... hard to find people willing to put in quality efforts. Offered last March free, offering this March free. I don't expect much if any response ... people stop in, take up my time with a bunch of questions, say they're going to start SOON and that's the end of that. > I personally would much rather be a student, Yeah, it's all about training and development, not teaching. I taught kung fu for some time and at one point had intended to trek to Atl to pursue instructorship with Sifu Fong ... then decided that my ego doesn't need instructorship, but my self does need maintenance and refinement of ability, know what I mean? If I've got time to teach, I've got that much time to pursue refinement of skill instead. That's why I'm fixing up my garage ... I remember my instructor test in kung fu ... had to fight everyone in the class two at a time, then one at a time (full contact [old] school, no pads). There was a guy in the advanced class with zero interest in teaching who caught me square in the nose during the "one at a time" (tired!) phase. I passed but have never forgotten that day ... instructorship ... I think of it as "helpership" :-) > Yes, you'll have to filter through some dorks before you find some new training partners. Ain't that the truth! A few sensible training partners would be better than a "class" IMHO. Thought about starting a black belt club. > Be patient, they will find you. I'm a bit burnt out mon, but just for the record would rather wait than train with dorks :-) > I also find that just calling it martial arts at first is more acceptable and a good way to avoid some of the preconceived ideas you posted about. Maybe ... I used to just call it Freestyle Kung Fu, now San Shou (essentially same meaning) Kung Fu. Including the "JKD" blend of things per Faye et al, Kali to replace the classical Chinese weapons (more practical, more space efficient). Got some of the Thai training and fighting 'technology' in there too for conditioning, etc. This also per Faye et al, also Shih Fu used to send people to one of his Thai buddies to prepare for fights. In my 10 years here, the best person that I worked with was 5 years old. In 6 months he changed from a so-called ADD kid to a class leader (in elementary school). I used to have him do pushups anytime his attention drifted ... and had everyone else do the same, including me. When his attention drifted we all did 10. He had to repeat the intro level, but second time around (after 3 months) he had gotten the message and was eager/ready for instruction. Kid's mother and teachers were amazed (me too). The only child in a class of adults, he had the BEST attention span and follow through on instructions. Classes got scuttled because some pervert complained to the U when I excluded him for indecent behavior. OK, I'm ramblin' and at work. Now that my son (Kofi) and his son (Kofi!) are in Atl I'm looking into making a monthly trek to train obah dere. Thanks for the encouragement Dale. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: Joel McNamara Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: eskrima: Spyderco/Hwa Rang Do Erik Remmen was the Hwa Rang Do player who originally developed the Clipit defensive course. I believe he's still in the Olympia, Washington area. He turned the Clipit class over to Greg Hamilton and company at InSights Training. Joel ------------------------------ From: "Richard Killick" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:22:49 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: knife try Ok lets talk knife training (with me being slightly a devils advocate). Speaking as an instructor in the last three months I have had three students attacked with either a knife or a sharp object. The first bumped in to some one at a club whilst dancing, turned around to say sorry and had his nose cut partly off. Knife was already on the way. With his nose cut Andy blocked the follow up strike to the stomach and was then pulled out side by the bouncers- off to hospital. James was walking along a street in a nice part of town when a group of lads surrounded him and a mate. James had a bottle broken on his head and managed to disarm the follow up thrust to his face. He then battered the attacker. I hear he has scars. Lance who happens to be James friend has been to my class once. We were playing, (and I do mean playing/goofing around) with lock flow drills. Being a Uni student Lance works in a shop and someone tried to do over the shop by threatening the staff with a half filled syringe with shouts of "do you what aids ect etc. Lance bless him applied a straight arm lock and disarmed him. Its clear that some of my training may have saved my students from further disfigurement. However I have recently been reviewing my knife defence training (which we do maybe once a month) and I really am thinking about not teaching it any more. The reason is I think most of what I teach has only a 30% chance of working. My instructors have explained to me that our training is for last ditch attempts to save your life any way, so maybe a 30% chance is not that bad. Now for the digest question, excluding being aware and street wise, what are the top (i.e. they work) things to teach a beginner about knife defence? I says things because it may or may not be techniques or tactics etc. Are there any concepts/ techniques set in stone. I have my own veiws but the floor is open! Happy debating Richard Killick. ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net (Mikal Keenan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:55 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Trapping Hands No offense, but trapping hands methods were around before Wing Chun (a Shaolin derivative) was devised by Ng Mui. Check this out . . . Ng Mui Si Tai (Wumei Shitai or Nun, Five Plums), was most often said to have been from the legendary Shaolin Temple and to have been one of the fabled five ancestors who escaped the temple’s destruction. Her true identity was sometimes said to have been Lui Sei-Leung, the Forth Daughter of a Ming general named Lui. In stories where Ng Mui herself created Wing Chun Kuen, such as those of the Yip Man system, it is typically maintained that when the Shaolin Temple was burned, the nun, Ng Mui sought refuge in the distant Bak Hok Jee (Baihesi or White Crane Temple) of the Daliangshan Mountains on the borders of Yunnan and Sichuan provinces. There, she practiced her meditation and martial arts. One day, her practice was interrupted by a snake and a crane, locked in combat. Ng Mui watched the snake and the crane, and came to admire their fighting methods. Observing, Ng Mui began to incorporate the unique strengths and tactics into her already well developed martial skills, creating a remarkable new method. Later, in the village below, she met Yim Yee and his daughter Wing-Chun from whom she often bought bean curd on her way home from the market. At fifteen, with her hair bound up in the custom of those days to show she was of an age to marry, Wing-Chun's beauty attracted the attention of a loca! l bully. He tried to force Wing-Chun to marry him, and his continuous threats became a source of worry to her and her father. Ng Mui learned of this and took pity on Wing-Chun. She agreed to teach Wing-Chun fighting techniques so she could protect herself. Wing-Chun followed Ng Mui into the mountains, and began to learn fighting skills. She trained night and day, until she mastered the techniques. Then she challenged the bully to a fight and beat him. Some versions, by contrast, hold that the above was not the founding of Wing Chun Kuen, but of Bak Hok Kuen (White Crane Boxing). The popular folk stories say Ng Mui went to Yunnan's White Crane Temple where one day she witnessed a fight between a fox and a white crane. The fox lost and Ng Mui used the crane as inspiration create a new style she named Bak Hok Kuen (White Crane Boxing). Ng Mui then journeyed to Guangxi where she met Mui Sun. Mui Sun mixed Ng Mui's Bak Hok Kuen with his own techniques and created the style which would eventually be named Wing Chun. Another old legend states that Ng Mui's art had a different source. The famed Song Dynasty General Ngok Fei (Yue Fei) created several martial arts including Xingyiquan (Form of Intention Boxing), Yingzhaopai (Eagle Claw Style), and Ngok Ga Kuen (Ngok Family Boxing). Ngok Ga spread to several areas, one of which was the Taoist temples on Mt. Emei. There, the priests passed along the art for generations. Two of the disciples who eventually inherited the style were a priest named Bak Mei (White Eyebrows) and a nun named Ng Mui (Five Plums). Bak Mei went on to create the style which came to bear his name, Bak Mei Kuen, and Ng Mui passed along her art to people who eventually named it Wing Chun Kuen(Praise Spring Boxing). Ng Mui is also often named as the founder of many, many other systems, including Mui Fa Kuen (Plum Blossom Boxing), Lung Ying Kuen (Dragon Shape Boxing), Chu Ga Tong Long (Chu Family Mantis), Gao Kuen (Dog Boxing), Bak Hok Kuen (White Crane Boxing), Ng Mui Pai (Five Plums Boxing), and Wing Chun Kuen (Praise Spring Boxing). Also, variations of the stories exist where she is case as a Shaolin nun from Fujian rather than Henan, or as a Taoist from Hebei's Wudangshan. It is unknown if Ng Mui was a real person or simply an alias used to avoid attention from the Qing government. In any event, based on the above, there appear to be two schools of belief as to Ng Mui's role in the Wing Chun Kuen creation myths. In the first, she must be considered the founder who passed along a fairly complete system to Yim Wing-Chun. In the second, she must be considered the primary source who passed down the raw material later shaped by Yim Wing-Chun (or in some accounts Miu Shun) who later founded the art. __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:14:36 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 On the running thread, I try and make sure I am aware of the people I am with abilities/limitaions also. Here again the best thing is avoidance. Most time if you're really aware you can avoid the situation or at least better prepare for it. You know though as I get older I really wonder if a lot of it just isn't fate. Look at the Daytona race, the first 18 car crash...everyone walked away, then the fatal race hey in NASCAR it wasn't even much of a crash. In the movie "the 13th Warrior" Banderas is told that there is no use being afraid, as the days of our lives are numbered from birth. I'm not sure that I believe that, but it does explain some strange things doesn't it. ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net (Mikal Keenan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:33:40 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Wing Chun Yim Wing-Chun (Yan Yongchun), also known as Yim Saam-Leung (Yim Sanniang or Third Daughter of Yim), the wife of Leung Bok-Cho, is the principle figure in many legends of Wing Chun. In some accounts, Yim Wing-Chun was taught the art that would become known as Wing Chun Kuen by her father, Yim Yee. Other accounts give her more credit, suggesting that from a young age, Yim Wing-Chun learned the Fujian martial arts, including Sae Ying Kuen (Snake Shape Boxing) and Bak Hok Kuen (White Crane Boxing) from her father, a former Siu Lam disciple and revolutionary named Yim Sei. One day, while she was washing clothes by the river, Wing Chun saw a snake and crane fighting. Gaining inspiration from the two animals, she used her new found insight to refine her martial knowlede to better suit herself. One of the most famous stories about Yim Wing-Chun, found in the Yip Man system, holds that the nun, Ng Mui would, on occasion, travel from her refuge in the White Crane Temple in order to get provisions from a nearby Yunnan village. During these visits, she made the acquaintance of a local tofu vender named Yim Yee and his daughter, a young girl named Yim Wing-Chun. One day, while visiting, Ng Mui found the young girl in tears. She soon discovered that a brutal local gangster had come to town and taken a liking to Yim Wing-Chun. He had sworn to return a short time later to claim her as his wife. Ng Mui at first thought to fight the gangster and drive him away, but she realized that to do so would give away her location to the Qing troops who still hunted her. Instead, she decided to take Yim Wing-Chun with her back to the temple and teach her the martial arts so that she would be able to fight for herself. With only a short time until the gangsters return, Ng Mui could not te! ach Yim Wing-Chun in the usual manner (which some have said took more then a dozen years). So, Ng Mui was forced to teach Yim Wing-Chun only the most simple, direct, and effective of combat skills which she would be able to use in order to defeat the larger, stronger, and more experienced gangster. Yim Wing-Chun practiced very hard and when the gangster returned, she was ready. The gangster was last seen dragging his battered body out of town, never to return. In most stories, in the mid-1810s, she married a man named Leung Bok-Cho. In some accounts, he learned alongside her under Yim Yee until the old man passed away, at which point he continued learning from his wife (following an encounter where she quite easily proved her fighting skills greatly surpassed those of her husband). In others, Yim Wing-Chun alone taught him her remarkable fighting skills. From the many accounts it is clear that Yim Wing-Chun, whether a real person or an alias used as a cover, is credited in the Wing Chun Kuen creation myths as the principle founder, or one of the principle founders, of the art. __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:25:37 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Heart punch etc. "The ventricular fibrillation thing is rare. But it's dangerous enough that the heart punch was banned from boxing long ago." VFib induced by a punch to the chest is indeed rarer than hen's teeth. But what is a heart punch? Nowhere in my boxing book of rules is it mentioned. Anything above waist and in front of the axillary line is considered legitimate target. Incidentally, in boxing the heart area is probably the most difficult to hit as, even when one is pretty groggy, the elbows tend to stay in front of it. BTW, although rupture of the spleen, bladder or hyoid bone may lead to death eventually, none will do so instantly and therefore are unlikely to satisfy the criterion of stopping the assailant immediately and prevent him from doing a significant mischief before his demise. Mike Koblic, Quesnel BC ------------------------------ From: Marlo Brown Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:04:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #101 > From: "Kevin Davis" > Northwest Safaris.?. Bearded guy...(can't think of his name either). I > heard some interesting things but recently (1 year to 6 mos.) ago heard that > he was not active anymore. > KD > > > What happened to the HwaRang Do guy that was the training director for > > Spyderco? At least he taught some Spyderco approved classes, dealt > > with using, I think, the Delica, involved grappling, etc. I spoke with [snip] > > Ray Terry I believe his name is Erick Remmen, and if I remember correctly, InSights is doing a similar knives-as-escape-tools class now. From what I've heard, graduates occasionally meet each other in public places when they spot someone with 2 folding knives. Marlo Brown ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:34:06 EST Subject: eskrima: clarification From Marc MacYoung Folks. Let me try to clarify a few points that seem to be whizzing past some people here. Now whether this is simply miscommunication or someone purposely misinterpreting what I am saying to protect their sacred cows, I don't know. However, for communication's sake let me point out a few things. A friend of mine - who incidentally is not only a kali player, but is on this very list, once made, in my opinion, a very profound and important statement. "People who talk about the stick as an "average" weapon like to say that it has similarities with all kinds of weapons. This is true, there are a lot of similarities. What they aren't realizing is that the differences between weapons are just as significant." Now before you get your knickers in a knot, recognize that this guy used to do live blade, full contact, unchoreographed sword fighting with me. So he knows of what he speaks. There are indeed similarities, however there are significant differences that until you pick it up and use it yourself, the exact nature of these differences will not become obvious. So from this, we can make a true general statement of: While there are similarities there are also significant differences. Now we can refine that down into: While we may not know the exact nature of these differences, we know they WILL exist. Is this beginning to sound like Chaos Theory yet? If so, good. That's step one in staying alive. Plan for things to be different and you go far increasing the odds of all your surprises being happy ones. Because you will actively be looking for both the similarities AND the differences. Not just the similarities. Recognize that saying "we know differences exist" is significantly different from saying "I know what the differences are." While the listener may infer the later from the former, it isn't implied by the speaker in the former. It just says what it says. Had I said "And these differences between the US and Cebu City are..." then the fact that I have never set foot in the Philippines would be relevant. Furthermore, I have not stepped into every dojo in the United States so I cannot say that every school does this. However, I have walked into a large number of them and quietly sat there and watched. Furthermore I have worked with students/instructors from another large number of schools. And from that, I can say - with certainty that the people I have seen and worked with - - are NOT training in a manner that is consistent with common ways of attack in the US. Ways that I have spent a lot of time not only experiencing first hand and observing but also researching and collecting data from similarly experienced individuals, LEAs, legal and academic sources. This is a process that I continually do. I am always researching and upgrading to discover new and different trends in crime and violence. And as I said earlier, I am doing this internationally too. Furthermore I do not accept any one source as the pure gospel. (Nor do I expect anyone to do the same about me.) Am I saying that the ways you train for don't happen in the US? No. What I am saying that there is a much wider spectrum of potential attacks out there than most people realize - much less train for. And many of these ways are successful against much of what is taught in the US as knife defense. These are things that I regularly demonstrate in my seminars and I will be doing so in the seminar in El Segundo (which BTW folks where did someone get the idea that El Segundo is a bad 'hood? The reference was that I would be down there this weekend teaching). Am I saying this is the only way you will be attacked? Nope. Am I saying that you HAVE to handle it my way? Nope. Am I saying that you had better know about it and then proceed to figure out ways to handle it that work for you? You betcha. I don't know how they train in Cebu City, and unless you have trained in both places, neither do you. And if you have, are you telling me that they train exactly the same way there as they do in the US? And that statement applies to every FMA school in the United States AND Cebu City -- which you have personally visited? Not just your home dojo, but every one. I don't care if your instructor tells you this is how they train back home, if you haven't been there yourself you are accepting 2nd hand information as gospel and arguing for it's correctness. However, back to the idea of recognizing that there are unknown differences, in his book "Martial Arts America" Bob Orlando also brings up this same kind of thinking when he says -- "Begin by accepting the fact that all training is based o a simulation of reality. The operative word here is simulation." No matter how intense, it is still a simulation, because as Bob himself points out "if it was reality it would kill off the next generation." (BTW, I HIGHLY recommend those in the MA to grab this book and give it a read. Even if you don't agree with his points, you are going to have to do some serious thinking to get your ducks in row as to why he is wrong other than the "Ugnh huh!" and "Is not!" forms of debate). There are differences AND there are similarities. Both are equally important. And the wider and more varied your knowledge base is the more likely you are to be able to handle those differences when you encounter them. I don't know how it is done over there, but I do have a pretty good idea on things in my neck of the woods. And until you have seen it too, don't tell me that your training will work. Because you don't know. And I don't care how much experience you teacher has or the fact that he can make it work. What is important is: Can you make it work against the things I am talking about? And I mean right now, not five years down the line. (although this does beg the question, if the guy has that much experience, why ain't he teaching many of these "common" US ways of attacking?) The reason I ask is I actively encourage training with other people, other styles and other sources - even if they are not martial art oriented. When asked why, I have a standard answer about why I encourage this wide expanse of training: "Nobody owns the whole truth. Everyone has a slice of the pie. Everybody has a bit of the truth. I want you go over there and find out what that guy has to offer. Because he has a different perspective than I do. He's got a different piece of the pie than I do. Neither one is more right than the other. Both are right and you need to know them. The reason is, that it isn't about me, it isn't about him, or this guru or that guru. It's about you. Because it is your ass that is on the line. You're going to be the one facing the dude in the dark alley. Not me or anybody else -- you. And that is why you don't accept anybody's word as gospel - not even mine. You need to know as much as you can about all the different ways that you can be attacked. You find what works for you, under all these conditions. Because the wider your knowledge the better your chances of walking out of there alive. " I've seen too many bodies hit the deck. Some were good people, some weren't. What they all had in common is that they thought they knew how to handle themselves. And they did, until they met something unexpected. And usually the reason it was unexpected is because it was different. And believe me when you have seen the 5 inch shotgun that came out of a Biker's glove you begin to get an idea exactly how "different" it can be out there. In case you're wondering, one of my mottos for teaching was over the door at a Marine base "Let no man's ghost return and say that his training was not sufficient." I owe it to those who come to me to learn what I have to offer, to set my ego aside and say "I don't know everything -- so I gotta keep on learning too so I can speak the truth - as I know it-to the best of my abilities." People's lives can depend on what I teach them and because of this I can never become complacent, impressed with what I know or expect people to accept my word as gospel because I have "mastered" a system. My teaching creed is NOBODY dies because what I taught them doesn't work. And I have to throw my ego out the window or swallow my pride, to make this happen, then so be it. Better that than I get someone killed by teaching something that doesn't work. I don't expect every guru to adopt this standard, but it is mine. This isn't about macho bluster or posturing. It comes from revulsion. It is based in knowing the horrors of the night and a commitment to helping people so if they accidentally find themselves in that hell, how to get out of there alive. Yes, there is blood on the knife -- and the floor, and the walls, and on you and your clothing. And the stench will make you sick. Now if that is too real for you folks, fine. But then don't turn around and try to tell me that is what you are training for. Because that sickening horror is a very real and large part of that reality. This is exactly why I have such high regard for DR Gyi. He shows the horror. Now I may laugh and joke at my seminars, but that is the deadly underlying foundation of what I am teaching. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:59:44 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: clarification > Folks. Let me try to clarify a few points that seem to be whizzing past some > people here. Now whether this is simply miscommunication or someone purposely > misinterpreting what I am saying to protect their sacred cows, I don't know. > However, for communication's sake let me point out a few things. And please allow me to do the same. Part of what I and others have tried to point out, IMHO, is that you feel we that are always the ones missing the point. Why are -we- the only people to miss the point? Perhaps -you- are missing a point here and there, also. You state that your views stem from your experiences. Well many/most of us have experiences, also. Perhaps some have seen and done and survived far more than you have... perhaps not. The ones that have survived the most seem to talk about it the least. Yet it often seems that we are the ones that just don't get it. We are the ones with the points whizzing past our heads. Could it be the other way 'round?.? Even just once in awhile.?. Just food for thought. Take care. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #102 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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