From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #138 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 16 March 2001 Vol 08 : Num 138 In this issue: eskrima: RE: Tomahawk and Warclubs eskrima: Reply to Guro McConnell on the 'datu' question eskrima: Legality of Tomahawk eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #137 eskrima: Seminoles+ eskrima: Armed Citizenry Re: eskrima: Armed Citizenry eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeremy Bays" Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:34:03 -0500 Subject: eskrima: RE: Tomahawk and Warclubs Mr. McGrath, To answer your questions one by one, I submit the following: 1.) What does the word Tomahawk mean..... The Algonquian term is a simple term the means CLUB or CLUB-like tool. It was not limited to the trade axes of the day that we might think about. For example, a tool like a hammer would also use that name. 2.) Regarding the "Gunstock war club"..... I have seen several of these clubs from the early 1800's. The design came from the Eastern Woodland tribes and it was a copy of the early firearms. Please remember that the early firearms of the day were a mass produced weapon that was not reliable and spare parts were not easy to get. In other words, if your gun broke--you throw it away or save up for a new one. The Native American mindset (still with them today) is to use what is at hand in anyway that it is possible. They would gather these discarded firearms and fashion them into clubs. 3.) Legal Problems with the Tomahawk in Indiana..... In Indiana I can carry a tomahawk in full view in any public place. The problem I "might" have is if I try to conceal the weapon. At one point I would carry a tomahawk in the front seat of my car. I asked a lawyer and two police officers about it and they claimed that it was legal and OK to carry as long as it was not hidden from view. The lawyer said that in a pinch I could argue that it is an axe and not a weapon of death and destruction. - ----- Original Message ----- > What was the original meaning of the word "tomahawk"? My dictionary lists it > as having an Algonquian origin, but doesn't give a literal translation. > > I have read (I think in a knife mag when "Last of the Mohicans" came out) > that the "gunstock" tomahawk was an imitation of the European's "firestick" > in the days before Native Americans had access to firearms. Can anyone > confirm this. > > I have a question for those knowledgeable with the penal law in their > states. > In New York State, we don't specifically list tomahawks in our penal law, > but if the blade was over 4" wide I guess it would be defined as a " > dangerous knife". Does your state list a tomahawk or hatchet as a > prohibited weapon and if not what would someone be charged with for simple > possession of one in your area (if a weapon is not specifically listed, it > may still fall under some ill defined catch all phrase). Are there any > states where one would be legal? > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:18:02 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Reply to Guro McConnell on the 'datu' question mccfamily@plexis.net wrote. >Subject: eskrima: datu > >Do we really need to rehash the whole datu thing again. Start something all over again? No! Get an answer to my question from Mr. Hartman? Yes! >There are others with the same title who do not belong to the IMAF. You are correct about some other people, but my question to Mr. Hartman is based on his often ststed reply that we should ask Professor Presas about why he offers/awards the 'datu' title. Now that Mr. Hartman has chosen to leave the IMAF AND founded a new, seperate organization, the WMAA, is it proper and responsible for him to continue to use the title awarded under the IMAF banner? >I think that sometimes people get caught in all the politics. Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps it is a political matter. However, not all politics is bad and asking questions need not always be a bad thing. The difficulty arises when people get very nervous about answering a difficult question that has some cultural overtones to it. Since I am not an IMAF student or imstructor, I can only ask questions, seeking clarity and information. >Politics is like having a big dog in your back yard, you can try to avoid >it but sometimes you step in it everywhere you go. Small dogs leave piles was well and one really only steps in it everywhere you go, when you have refused to make a consistant effort to keep the yard clean!! This is part of the problem with the 'datu' title. The matter has never been properly cleaned up and explained. >Actions often speak louder than words and ability is more important >than >the words.......or title. That is merely a cliche, in this context and it avoids the question posed to Mr. Hartman. He has chosen to sign his post with the title and that action has promoted my question. I have not and will not make any statement regarding ability. In fact my question about the title has nothing to do with real or imagined ability. >I could go on, but then again, sometimes less is more. :-) You have made a good point, so let's leave it at this juncture and wait to see if Mr. Hartman chooses to reply. > "Guro" Dan McConnell > Modern Arnis of Ohio EBrook _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Langley Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:06:41 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Legality of Tomahawk > I have a question for those knowledgeable with the penal law in their > states. > In New York State, we don't specifically list tomahawks in our penal law, > but if the blade was over 4" wide I guess it would be defined as a " > dangerous knife". Does your state list a tomahawk or hatchet as a > prohibited weapon and if not what would someone be charged with for simple > possession of one in your area (if a weapon is not specifically listed, it > may still fall under some ill defined catch all phrase). Are there any > states where one would be legal? > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath A search of the California Penal Code shows no mention of the words: tomahawk, hatchet, or axe. Even though our gun laws suck, the knife laws in California are pretty good. We can carry fixed blade knives openly, but not concealed. We can carry folders of any blade length. My 5.45" blade on my REKAT Sifu is legal to carry totally concealed, but carrying a concealed 2" blade fixed blade knife/pushdagger will get you some hard prison time. Go figure. - -- Ray Langley http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:26:22 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #137 In a message dated 3/16/01 10:01:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Does your state list a tomahawk or hatchet as a prohibited weapon and if not what would someone be charged with for simple possession of one in your area (if a weapon is not specifically listed, it may still fall under some ill defined catch all phrase). Are there any states where one would be legal? >> Well as to the Tomahawk itself, most of the states I am familiar with don't have specific laws either it would just fall into the "attempt to go armed" category. I taught a seminar on right angle weapons last fall, and the techniques you use with a 'hawk apply to a lot of other implements. One of my favorite "sleepers" is a sheet rock hammer it is basically a hawk on one side a war hammer on the other and if its in the truck with a nail apron and a few more carpentry tools you have a reason for carrying it. Same as carrying a baseball bat if that's all you have its hard to explain, if you keep your grandsons T-ball bat, along with his glove and ball in the rear seat. It isn't carrying a weapon, now is it. Back years ago when I was in Manhattan for a few weeks I noticed that a lot of the bikers carried hammers in a leather belt. I asked one and he said that as long as his Union card was paid up he was cool. I don't know about that but I never saw one stopped for it ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:48:23 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Seminoles+ Buz said... > Mik: I hope something germane to the question you raised > resides within this long winded screed. > To everyone else: I apologize for my fondness of > polysyllabic tangents. All relevant ... and thanks Buz. IMHO you've added to the level of awareness here re: more than one topic. Most people have no awareness of real American history and how things got to be the way that they are ... how much has been revised or straighforwardly omitted. You point out that the Seminoles agreed to relocate ... yep, then they were betrayed so rather than become enslaved, they went to Mexico. The history of the USA is very distorted but the info is available for all to check out. The Seminole warriors were just one example of a common occurence in early America ... escaped Africans were welcomed into many Native American tribes/nations ... and they lived in free, democratic societies which shared knowledge. There were many successful "maroon" societies in North and South America and the Caribe'. Perhaps their fighting "acumen" was in part a result of the fact that they were under the constant threat of attack by slavers and/or the forces of some European regen! t, etc. 8760 (8,760 hours of the year :-) Any interested readers should check out the book "Black Indians." Interesting to note that people were snagged for their skills. Nobody here ever heard of Yaomachtia? Aztec/Mexican/Central American Indian fighting methods? Mitakeyu Oyasin, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:05:51 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Armed Citizenry > It's not too hard, however, to find examples throughout U.S. history > where an armed citizenry significantly altered public policy. Is it true that this is the reason why the Japanese ruled out any attempt to invade the West Coast in the WWII era? __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:35:46 PST Subject: Re: eskrima: Armed Citizenry > > It's not too hard, however, to find examples throughout U.S. history > > where an armed citizenry significantly altered public policy. > > Is it true that this is the reason why the Japanese ruled out any attempt to invade the West Coast in the WWII era? Yes, supposedly. Yamamoto had lived several years in the US well prior to WWII and knew we were an armed nation. His advice was that although the Japanese Army could probably defeat the US Army at the time, they would never be able to defeat the nation, armed as it was/is. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:47:52 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #138 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.