From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #173 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 9 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 173 In this issue: eskrima: Dos manos eskrima: Re: Dos Manos eskrima: Dos Manos eskrima: Re: what we did last week eskrima: Cacoy seminar eskrima: Re: Dos Manos questions eskrima: Re: Philippines - Public Announcement eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1350 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike aka Shugendo" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:21:23 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Dos manos I regards to short staff and staff fighting: Grip is dependent upon the situation (number of attackers/defenders, weapon(s) being wielded by attackers, environment, goal of offensive defensive encounter, etc) In sparring the goal is to keep the attacker at bay until time runs out, disarm through impact or submit them through superior firepower (not an easy task depending upon the weapon you are facing). In the 'real world' (i.e. law enforcement / military) the goal would be to contain the attackers (or seperate them from an group), control and silence attackers with minimal bloodshed (visible) and establish a defensive position that can be easily supported. In the first situation I would use a two-handed "long grip"; meaning that I would keep both hands at one end of the staff or use this grip to switch ends quickly to change percieved distance. In the second situation I would use a two-handed "short grip"; meaning that I would keep both hands (approximately shoulder width apart) near the middle of the stick so as to allow striking or butting with both ends as well as locking / choking techniques. Hope this helps... Michael A. Krivka @ Martial Arts Koncepts Home Page: http://www.martialartskoncepts.com Email: shugendo@hotmail.com or koncepts@bellatlantic.net Phone: 301/963-6520 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: szorn@webtv.net (S ZORN) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:30:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: eskrima: Re: Dos Manos The 3 Dos Manos videos that you mention only cover a portion of the Dos Manos curriculum which is now called Solo and Dos Manos (SDMS) and is 10 levels long. In Hock's SDMS there are 4-5 primary grips and they are all used to some extent. This includes the training and use of the "baseball bat" grip. The punyo thrusts and hooks are like all techniques, they have a time and a place and they shouldn't be considered the "fight ender". They can be effective when used properly, especially when directed toward the face and eyes. The grips used, especially with a long staff, should be based on your preference and your previous training as well as the situation and environement. Also, you need to look at the various advantages and disadvantages to each grip. For example, you mentioned keeping an opponent at a distance by holding the end of the staff. This will only work for a short time before the opponent figures out how to parry or pass the staff and then move in for the kill. Also, as you mentioned the weight of the staff can have an effect on the type of grip that you use. The main thing to remember is that there is no one grip that is right for every person or situation. You have to train with them and figure out what works best for you in each situation. Steve ------------------------------ From: Ray Langley Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 07:44:14 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos > I have been watching the 3-tape series on Dos Manos stick fighting produced > by W. Hock Hochheim. Most techniques demonstrated are using about 3-foot > stick gripped at both ends with puno-type length protruding either end. > > 1. 15 angles of attack are demonstrated, two of these are forms of the hockey > "cross-check", several are essentially thrusts. My question is: how powerful > are the strikes with the puno ends parallel to the target(even extended > slightly)? Are they powerful enough to be considered finishing techniques or > are they essentially set-up techniques requiring a take-down (as shown in > the tapes) and a base-ball type of finish? > > 2. The tapes include very little of the latter, perhaps they are thought not > very useful in the initial phases of the encounter, or they are though > intuitive and not requiring much teaching ("anyone can swing a stick with > both hands"). > > This seems to contradict with the evidence of other taped fights I have seen > with longer sticks/staffs where the combatants grabbed the sticks near one > end and made sure they kept each other at the other end of their sticks from > the beginning of the encounter. > > 3. Is this a function of the weight of the staff (one can handle a heavier > stick more efficiently in the Dos Manos grip than with the baseball grip)? > What do experts in staff fighting do? Do you concentrate on practising > techniques holding the staff in the middle and using both ends to strike or > do you hold the staff at one end? Or combination of both? If so under what > circumstances do you use one or the other? > > Mike Koblic, > Campbell River, BC Hi Mike, I have numbered your questions above to make it easier to keep track of the answers. First of all, I love these tapes! I have posted a review of Volume 1 at: http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcaneknifestick I just received Volumes 2 and 3 a few days ago. Since September, 1999 I have been trying to develop a "system" using the walking cane that is perfect for my individual purposes. Because of my age, physical condition, lack of superhuman strength, etc., my system is primarily one using a heavy hickory cane with two-handed techniques. Portions of the Dos Manos are ideal for my purposes. Another vital part is the Dog Brothers tape on "Power". 1. From my personal experience, the parallel punyo strikes are weak compared to "normal" two-handed (long distance) strikes. You can easily prove this to yourself by hitting something solid such as a tire suspended from a rope. The parallel punyo hits are painful to me when I hit the tire! Also, in my opinion, 15 striking angles are too many for a simple, easy to learn system. 2. Keep in mind that Hock Hockheim has a military and LEO background. His system is also demonstrated using a rifle with bayonet, and a shotgun. Much of the stuff in this series is more applicable to very long and very heavy weapons. For instance, the parallel punyo strikes work well using the butt of a rifle, or the bayonet end! For a two-handed weapon such as a cane, it is the largo mano-type "swinging" strikes that should be the basis of the system. Keep in mind that Hock's system is advertised as "Close-Quarter Stick". 3. In an ideal fight using a 3' stick or cane, you will never get close enough to the opponent to worry about close quarter work. But, as we all know, this ain't a perfect world. :-) Volume 3 of this series is a seminar that Hock conducted for LEOs. In this tape he uses a riot baton. Some of the concepts that he shows for fighting from a kneeling or ground position are very useful. From my experience with this method, the most powerful strike is the straight ahead push/shove/strike with the stick parallel to the ground. Hitting a tire using a grip with both hands near the crook is the "bread-and-butter" move of my system. This strike will move a tire on a rope a foot or two. But, the two-handed parallel thrust will cause the tire to swing many feet. The two-handed thrust with the tip of the stick is also super.... If you like the Dos Manos system, you should also check out the John Kary tape on stick fighting. It is also reviewed at the site mentioned above. Good luck! - -- Ray Langley ------------------------------ From: Ronald.Reekers@HSC.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:37:14 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: what we did last week Thought I'd contribute to the thread by going over in general last week's classes. I have three brand new students so we went over the basic history of FMA, various weapons and usage. We then went into basics of body mechanics, grip and stance. We finished the general knowledge instruction by covering all lines of strikes; the PHD of Eskrima (Perpendicular, Diagonal and Horizontals) For the intermediate students we went into more advance footwork such as short trapezoids and forward stealth stepping. We applied these techniques using single and doble baston guards, blocks and follow through. I had one advance student where I taught advance knife manipulation using Largo Mano Alphabet patterns and applications. All students covered offset timing drills (half, full and crossover replacement stepping) and how we can apply that the sparring. The students spent the last portion of each class sparring with an emphasis on timing. My fun (not that teaching isn't fun) came on Saturday where my advance student and I sparred for 40 minutes (approx. 5 minutes on and 1 minute off) with the following weapons: single baston, truncheon, double truncheon, truncheon and bankaw. This week we'll cover, basic cuts, single baston largo patterns, continued footwork with double truncheon, advance bankaw and truncheon Kabaroan drills, additional distancing strategies and more sparring. Best to all Ron Reekers http://thundercenter.tripod.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 9:25:31 PDT Subject: eskrima: Cacoy seminar FYI... Seminar with Doce Pares Grandmaster Cacoy Canete. April 14th, Saturday Epperson Bros. Kenpo Karate; Contact Chuck Epperson @530-895-8257 or email pfs@ecst.cshuchio.edu address: 977 E.Av.; Chico, California 95927 I understand that GM Cacoy still has dates open on May 26th and in June 3,9 and 17th for seminar bookings, if anyone is interested. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Scott Kinney" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 12:19:27 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Dos Manos questions Michael wrote about the material on Hock's Dos Manos tapes: "Most techniques demonstrated are using about 3-foot stick gripped at both ends with puno-type length protruding either end." The same techniques are also shown using a shotgun, and an AK47 with a bayonet. This is one of the reasons for the type of grip shown. Technically Dos Manos would cover a 'baseball bat' style of grip as well, but Hock's system focuses on the both-ends sort of grip. Mike also asked: " My question is: how powerful are the strikes with the puno ends parallel to the target(even extended slightly)?" I'm assuming you mean strikes like #1, #2, and so on. The smart-ass answer would be 'go try it on a heavy bag'. But anyway, on a power continuum from weakest to strongest, I'd say these strikes are stronger than a one handed strike on the same angle, but weaker than a 'baseball bat' type strike on that same angle. Much depends on how you perform the strike (obviously), for example, are you striking forward with the top hand while pulling in with the bottom hand (creating a fulcrum effect?) Also: "Are they powerful enough to be considered finishing techniques or are they essentially set-up techniques requiring a take-down (as shown in the tapes) and a base-ball type of finish?" That's kind of like asking if you can knock someone out with one punch. Maybe, maybe not. It's part of Hock's instructional style to put everything into a 'first contact to takedown and finish' framework. In practice, I put small combinations of Dos Manos strikes together, just to avoid that magical 'one-strike' thinking.    As to some of Mike's other questions (why no focus on baseball bat type grips or strike, isn't this different from the way people handle long staffs, etc.) I will answer as best I can and maybe Jeff can correct me/fill in the blanks. Expanding on what I stated earlier, Hock's Dos Manos style is formed largely on how one should approach a riot baton, a shotgun, a rifle with a bayonet, maybe even a jo-sized staff. It's not predicated on spear/staff/bankaw type uses. As such, a baseball bat type grip would be inappropriate (unless you're posing for a Wyeth bookplate). Other Dos Manos approaches I've seen elsewhere focus solely on the baseball bat grip, and ignore the other two handed grip. As far as taped fights go, I'd say, hand them both ASP Red Gun shotguns/AK47/MP5 and then say go at it. I doubt you'd see people gripping the barrel or the stock by both hands and flailing away. More to the point about stick fighting in particular, Dos Manos is designed to give you more facility in the two-handed grip (what if your take down doesn't work properly, what if the other guy is in too close, what if he grabs your stick.....) It's not a be-all end-all technique, it's just another part of the tool-box. Hope this helps, Scott -------------------------------------------------- Scott Kinney Project Manager sakinney@ix.netcom.com - -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:22:31 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Philippines - Public Announcement raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: >Subject: eskrima: Philippines - Public Announcement Snipped Some Material.... >Additionally, U.S. citizens are strongly cautioned to avoid all >travel to >the southern and western areas of the Island of Mindanao, to include >Zamboanga City, due to incidents of terrorism and >violence. U.S. citizens >should avoid travel to the island of >Basilan, Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, and Jolo >located in the Sulu archipelago in >the extreme southwest of the >Philippines. Hmmm... revised old news actaully, but it certinly needs to be updated from time to time. Thanks, Ray. >There have also been sporadic incidents of violence in southern >Mindanao, including bombings in General Santos City and at the >Cotabato >Airport in Maguindanao Province, as well as bus hijackings on national >highways. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front reportedly >has claimed >responsibility for these actions. Moro Islamic Liberation Front? Could this tie into a topic that is no longer going to be discussed on the Digest? Some of past concerns were/are based on my knowledge of these kinds of events that do happen in a number of countries outside of the USA. For example, most people think that pirates are historical figures and their heyday is dead and gone... think again folks, modern day pirates are a real hazard to commercial shipping and private reccerational vessels in place like the South China Sea, Straits of Malucca, and coastal areas north of Australia. >Americans should avoid large unruly crowds and political >demonstrations, keep a low profile, and vary routes and times of all >travel. Sound advice and as an American, who lived and worked for awhile in RP, I would strongly recommend these precautions. ArchBishop EBrook 2nd Chief Teacher - Surge Eskrima USA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:49:25 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #173 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.